America Is Blowing Up Boats and Asking Questions Later

[Loulit01]

With these attacks, Mr. Trump has ordered the summary execution of people who are not at war with the United States in any traditional sense of the term and who may not even have been committing the crime of which he accused them. It is a violation of legal due process that should alarm all Americans. It is even more extreme than his policy of sending migrants to a brutal prison in El Salvador, based on questionable claims that they belonged to Tren de Aragua and without any chance to contest the government’s claims. The United States, created in opposition to monarchy, should never become a country where the president can order the indefinite imprisonment or the unilateral killing of people merely because he has deemed them to be criminals.

Opinion | No President Should Have This Kind of Power

Even if the allegations are correct, blowing up the boats is a lawless exercise in the use of deadly force.

www.nytimes.com

The NYT woke up.

 

[Juin]

With these attacks, Mr. Trump has ordered the summary execution of people who are not at war with the United States in any traditional sense of the term and who may not even have been committing the crime of which he accused them. It is a violation of legal due process that should alarm all Americans. It is even more extreme than his policy of sending migrants to a brutal prison in El Salvador, based on questionable claims that they belonged to Tren de Aragua and without any chance to contest the government’s claims. The United States, created in opposition to monarchy, should never become a country where the president can order the indefinite imprisonment or the unilateral killing of people merely because he has deemed them to be criminals.

Opinion | No President Should Have This Kind of Power

Even if the allegations are correct, blowing up the boats is a lawless exercise in the use of deadly force.

www.nytimes.com

The NYT woke up.

I find it disturbing.

 

[BabaVoss]

The murderous Trump regime is out of control.
The GOP will be held to account for allowing and encouraging this madness.



.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

You both are ignoring that he designated their organizations as Foreign Terrorist - which enables the use of military action anywhere in the world.
And they are absolutely Foreign terrorist - causing more death and misery than any other terrorist groups - in fact more than all of them combined.

This is excellent that this is happening. Only way to stop the drug overdose deaths, destroyed families etc. that they cause every single day.

 

[BabaVoss]

You both are ignoring that he designated their organizations as Foreign Terrorist - which enables the use of military action anywhere in the world.

What organizations are we talking about?
How did we determine that these boats were full of terrorists? We were told they were drug smugglers.

And they are absolutely Foreign terrorist - causing more death and misery than any other terrorist groups - in fact more than all of them combined.

How do you know? What evidence is there?

 

[mike2810]

You both are ignoring that he designated their organizations as Foreign Terrorist - which enables the use of military action anywhere in the world.
And they are absolutely Foreign terrorist - causing more death and misery than any other terrorist groups - in fact more than all of them combined.

ok.

This is excellent that this is happening. Only way to stop the drug overdose deaths, destroyed families etc. that they cause every single day.

question. Why do you believe this is the "only way"?

imo, only going after the supply will not solve the problem. The reason for the demand of using illegal harmful drugs needs to also be addressed. If one illegal drug supply dries up, users will just find another. Both sides of the problem supply and demand need to be addressed for the problem to stop.

 

[Cordelier]

As disturbing as the maritime interdiction mission has been executed, it should be noted that's not actually why they're there. There are 9 vessels in the task force, and only one of them - the USS Minneapolis-St. Paul - is a dedicated inshore maritime interdiction vessel. The other 8 are there either for their amphibious landing capabilities or to shield an amphibious landing.

 

[Integrityrespec]

With these attacks, Mr. Trump has ordered the summary execution of people who are not at war with the United States in any traditional sense of the term and who may not even have been committing the crime of which he accused them. It is a violation of legal due process that should alarm all Americans. It is even more extreme than his policy of sending migrants to a brutal prison in El Salvador, based on questionable claims that they belonged to Tren de Aragua and without any chance to contest the government’s claims. The United States, created in opposition to monarchy, should never become a country where the president can order the indefinite imprisonment or the unilateral killing of people merely because he has deemed them to be criminals.

Opinion | No President Should Have This Kind of Power

Even if the allegations are correct, blowing up the boats is a lawless exercise in the use of deadly force.

www.nytimes.com

The NYT woke up.

Question? If in your neighborhood there is a history of shady characters showing up with drugs and selling it to the school kids at the playground and on the street corners. If these same people are responsible for tens of thousands of deaths of young people in your country every year, are you just going to tolerate it? I remember when we were told by our intelligence sources that there was Trump Russian collusion, there wasn't and it's been proven. But some pushed it heavily. So now our intelligence sources say these boats coming our of Venezuela are carrying dangerous life threatening drugs bound for America where they will kill a significant number of Americas agains and again. Are we supposed to let them land and start the distribution process or should we trust intelligence sources and be proactive in stopping their arrival before they reach our borders. American lives or drug runners lives?
If a Russian destroyer showed up on our coast and starting lobbing shells into the coustline, should we blow them up or let them continue until 100,000 Americans are dead?

 

[mike2810]

Question? If in your neighborhood there is a history of shady characters showing up with drugs and selling it to the school kids at the playground and on the street corners. If these same people are responsible for tens of thousands of deaths of young people in your country every year, are you just going to tolerate it?

no, we should not tolerate it.
What is being done to reduce the demand for using drugs that destroy lives?

I remember when we were told by our intelligence sources that there was Trump Russian collusion, there wasn't and it's been proven. But some pushed it heavily. So now our intelligence sources say these boats coming our of Venezuela are carrying dangerous life threatening drugs bound for America where they will kill a significant number of Americas agains and again. Are we supposed to let them land and start the distribution process or should we trust intelligence sources and be proactive in stopping their arrival before they reach our borders. American lives or drug runners lives?
If a Russian destroyer showed up on our coast and starting lobbing shells into the coustline, should we blow them up or let them continue until 100,000 Americans are dead?

If there is no demand for a drug the supply will go away.

 

[Juin]

Question? If in your neighborhood there is a history of shady characters showing up with drugs and selling it to the school kids at the playground and on the street corners. If these same people are responsible for tens of thousands of deaths of young people in your country every year, are you just going to tolerate it?

The Sheriff should do something about it. But is the Sheriff going to go out of the County and start gunning down whoever his sources tell him are drug pushers?

Trump has gone out of the neighborhood and is operating in international waters off Venezuela. If Venezuela objects it may be attacked.

If Trump is at war maybe it is time to obtain Congressional approval for waging that level of war

I remember when we were told by our intelligence sources that there was Trump Russian collusion, there wasn't and it's been proven. But some pushed it heavily. So now our intelligence sources say these boats coming our of Venezuela are carrying dangerous life threatening drugs bound for America where they will kill a significant number of Americas agains and again. Are we supposed to let them land and start the distribution process or should we trust intelligence sources and be proactive in stopping their arrival before they reach our borders. American lives or drug runners lives?
If a Russian destroyer showed up on our coast and starting lobbing shells into the coustline, should we blow them up or let them continue until 100,000 Americans are dead?

No problem. If the situation is that dire, by all means wage a war. At least bring Congress in

 

[BirdinHand]

You both are ignoring that he designated their organizations as Foreign Terrorist - which enables the use of military action anywhere in the world.
And they are absolutely Foreign terrorist - causing more death and misery than any other terrorist groups - in fact more than all of them combined.

This is excellent that this is happening. Only way to stop the drug overdose deaths, destroyed families etc. that they cause every single day.

No, see…no one has proven these boats
Blown up have anything to do with any cartel, let alone terrorist organization.

You’ve been conditioned to simply believe whatever the bloated old orange man tell you.

It was by design.

They conditioned the simple minded over years.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

No, see…no one has proven these boats
Blown up have anything to do with any cartel, let alone terrorist organization.

You’ve been conditioned to simply believe whatever the bloated old orange man tell you.

It was by design.

They conditioned the simple minded over years.

How do you know it isn't proven?
Have you seen copies of the intel?
Do you know what procedures they go through to identify these boats?
Are you informed of the intelligence technology and methods for doing so?

NO - you are not.

 

[BabaVoss]

How do you know it isn't proven?
Have you seen copies of the intel?
Do you know what procedures they go through to identify these boats?
Are you informed of the intelligence technology and methods for doing so?

NO - you are not.

Nor are YOU. Yet you defend this kind of murder as if you do.
You proved her point.
By the way, she did NOT say "it isn't proven".
What she said was "no one has proven these boats Blown up have anything to do with any cartel, let alone terrorist organization."
Which is TRUE.
Ask yourself why these things have not been made public.
.

 

[Tigerace117]

You both are ignoring that he designated their organizations as Foreign Terrorist - which enables the use of military action anywhere in the world.
And they are absolutely Foreign terrorist - causing more death and misery than any other terrorist groups - in fact more than all of them combined.

This is excellent that this is happening. Only way to stop the drug overdose deaths, destroyed families etc. that they cause every single day.

If that were true both Mexico and Colombia wouldn’t have ongoing issues with cartels.

 

[reinaert]

You both are ignoring that he designated their organizations as Foreign Terrorist - which enables the use of military action anywhere in the world.
And they are absolutely Foreign terrorist - causing more death and misery than any other terrorist groups - in fact more than all of them combined.

This is excellent that this is happening. Only way to stop the drug overdose deaths, destroyed families etc. that they cause every single day.

You approve of murder during the commission of piracy, eh?

 

[iamwhatiseem]

If that were true both Mexico and Colombia wouldn’t have ongoing issues with cartels.

If what is true?

 

[Tigerace117]

If what is true?

If this was a problem one could bomb their way out of, it should have worked by now.

It hasn’t.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

You approve of murder during the commission of piracy, eh?

No one was murdered.
People were killed in the act of committing foreign terrorism against the United States.

 

[reinaert]

No one was murdered.

Yes, by treaty and US law, that was definitionally murder.

People were killed in the act of committing foreign terrorism against the United States.

OK, Good German.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

If this was a problem one could bomb their way out of, it should have worked by now.

It hasn’t.

We certainly could bomb our way out of it, but that would entail bombing on allied lands.
Even thought, in reality, Mexico is not our ally. They openly engage in acts that harm us.
I would totally support leveling all of the cartel lands and homes. They have killed well in excess of a million Americans. Don't their lives count more than cartel families???

 

[Tigerace117]

We certainly could bomb our way out of it, but that would entail bombing on allied lands.
Even thought, in reality, Mexico is not our ally. They openly engage in acts that harm us.
I would totally support leveling all of the cartel lands and homes. They have killed well in excess of a million Americans. Don't their lives count more than cartel families???

…..no we couldn’t. That’s been proven dozens of times.

So you are going to level large chunks of American cities? Plenty of “cartel homes” are here, after all.

 

[Pyrite]

With these attacks, Mr. Trump has ordered the summary execution of people who are not at war with the United States in any traditional sense of the term and who may not even have been committing the crime of which he accused them. It is a violation of legal due process that should alarm all Americans. It is even more extreme than his policy of sending migrants to a brutal prison in El Salvador, based on questionable claims that they belonged to Tren de Aragua and without any chance to contest the government’s claims. The United States, created in opposition to monarchy, should never become a country where the president can order the indefinite imprisonment or the unilateral killing of people merely because he has deemed them to be criminals.

Opinion | No President Should Have This Kind of Power

Even if the allegations are correct, blowing up the boats is a lawless exercise in the use of deadly force.

www.nytimes.com

The NYT woke up.

from the NYT editorial:

Somewhere mingled in the foam and debris of the Caribbean Sea are the remains of at least 17 people who were killed this month by U.S. military forces on the orders of President Trump. They were aboard three speedboats that the Trump administration said were carrying drugs and smugglers from Venezuela.

Perhaps they were. Yet the administration has produced no evidence for its claims. And even if the allegations are correct, blowing up the boats is a lawless exercise in the use of deadly force.

On social media, Mr. Trump assured the public that the passengers were not only drug traffickers but also “narcoterrorists” and members of the Tren de Aragua criminal gang, which he said was under the control of President Nicolás Maduro of Venezuela. Military force was justified as a form of self-defense, he said, because the cartels are “threatening our national security,” and his top aides have vowed to continue the strikes. The self-defense justification looks especially weak after The Times reported that the first of the three boats turned away from the United States before being destroyed....

Drug trafficking is a serious problem, with synthetic opioids such as fentanyl having killed more than 800,000 Americans in the 21st century. It would certainly be reasonable for the Trump administration to increase enforcement in waters around the United States, as it is has at the border. But there are legal ways to do so that stop far short of killing people based on suspicions, never publicly justified, that their boats are carrying drugs.

Until the past few weeks, the standard practice in these cases was for the Coast Guard to interdict the boats, seize the drugs, arrest the crew members and prosecute them. They then have a chance to defend themselves before possibly being convicted and subject to punishment. Federal law, first passed in 1949 and updated many times since, holds that only the Coast Guard — and not the Navy, the special forces or any other military branch — has the right to conduct law-enforcement operations on the high seas. (The Navy often supports the Coast Guard in these efforts.)

The administration has offered a couple of vague, unpersuasive justifications for its actions. For one thing, it has suggested that the Coast Guard law does not apply because Mr. Trump has declared certain drug cartels to be terrorist organizations. Under the war on terrorism authorizations put in place after Sept. 11, the military can indeed act against people deemed to be terrorists — but only those associated with the 2001 attacks. The administration has also claimed that Mr. Maduro has directed Tren de Aragua to invade the United States, making the situation akin to a war. Yet even intelligence agencies inside the government that Mr. Trump oversees have rejected the argument that Mr. Maduro controls Tren de Aragua....

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Only good drug traffickers that are responsible for millions of dead - is they die before they kill more.

I care more about the death of innocent Americans than drug dealers trying to get their poison on our shores.
Kill them all! Applaud!!!

 

[reinaert]

Only good drug traffickers that are responsible for millions of dead - is they die before they kill more.

I care more about the death of innocent Americans than drug dealers trying to get their poison on our shores.
Kill them all! Applaud!!!

OK, good german. Could you keep your private time behavior private?

 

[iamwhatiseem]

OK, good german. Could you keep your private time behavior private?

When all you can do is insult...