Amazon Workers Unionize!

[RaleBulgarian]

No, but I have worked DIRECTLY with unions, mostly the UAW.

Doing what?

I have been in the "belly of the beast" in numerous auto plants. Was a supervisor for UAW trades and production for a couple of years as well. I know exactly what goes on there, can't imagine it is much better than a government union.

Your perspective is entirely shaped from an adversarial management vs employee relationship. You, being on management’s side.

In other words, you were the boss’ tool.

So much for your union "protection". What the heck are you paying dues for if they allow this to happen

Our local union president was buddy buddy with members of management. Most of us filed numerous grievances that went nowhere.

I eventually got fed up, contacted my Congressional Rep, and quit the union. Management never tried to push me around again.

That is unfortunate. Sorry to hear that, perhaps another line of work?

Another line of work isn’t the solution.

Following the national agreement is.

 

[Peacenik]

You seem to be ignoring the fact that customers (and investors) are people too. If union made widgets cost more than non-union made widgets then how does the customer benefit from buying union made widgets?

If that customer is an American, they benefit from being in a nation which is not so dependent on foreign trade.

The same (to buy or not to buy decision) exists for investors (stock owners) - if the investment return (dividends paid and/or share price appreciation) is better for a corporation using non-union labor then why invest in a corporation using union labor?

Anybody who buys individual stocks is not being very wise.

 

[Peacenik]

I feel bad for the hardworking employees of Amazon who now will have to deal with a union holding back them back and the union propping up lazy piece of shit employees all while they steal money out of their paychecks to kick a little payoff money politicians way. Some will come to regret this vote and the damage it does,

That doesn't happen with every union any more than the worst of corporate behavior is found in every corporation.

 

[Chillfolks]

That doesn't happen with every union any more than the worst of corporate behavior is found in every corporation.

There may be decent unions out there, I have never found one but there still may be some

 

[Peacenik]

You’re right that most consumers likely only care about getting their stuff, and not about the people that make it happen.

Still, if Bezos were to shut down the warehouse, putting nearly 5,000 employees out of work, the AFL-CIO would raise a huge public stink that would be a PR nightmare for Amazon.

It would be a mere temporary nuisance to Amazon. The customers are not walking away over it.

 

[Peacenik]

I never was much of a union guy, I still have lots of issues with how the laws are written, and the transparency of some of the corrupt leaders.

But, back in the early 90's, I worked for an airline (America West) that was about 7 or 8 years old, and we started having union organizations. There were some pretty dirty dealings with the flight attendant union, and the union didn't get voted in. Mind you, transportation companies work under the Railway Labor Act, and under that, if you vote in a union, you can never go non union again, you can decertify and switch unions. Anyway, the company went Chapter 11, and the original founders of the company, who were liked and respected were replaced. The new CEO basically was the antichrist (he still is, he now the chairman of Frontier/Spirit Airlines, and Wizzair in Europe), so, eventually the flight attendants and pilots and mechanics and all other line positions went union, they had to so their jobs would be protected in case of a merger. AWA basically took over USAirways, and because of the union, the flight attendants were treated fairly for seniority, the pilots, not so much, long story. A few years later, US merged with American, and again, because of the union, seniority was integrated, and everyone kept the adjusted level of seniority. Seniority is the most important thing in the airline biz, the more seniority you have, the better lines you have for flying, it is a move up from being on unpaid reserve up to regular schedules, then to widebody international flying, you only get paid when you are flying.

Without the union, my friends would have all been "stapled" to the bottom of another company's seniority list, a massive demotion.

As for Amazon, good for them, I hear horror stories from there, and have read a lot of lawsuits as a result of how the treat their workers. When you have good management, you don't have unions, when you have bad management, you must have unions.

Thanks for the first-person reflection of how it is. I agree.

 

[Peacenik]

Unions may do the reverse. If there is no difference in pay between more productive and less productive (union) workers then why be a more productive worker? Not only are less productive (union) workers kept - they get union ‘negotiated’ raises based on seniority.

It's Amazon. They count the workers' steps. Workers are afraid to drink enough water while on the job because if they take time to go to the bathroom the company detects a reduction of production because of the bathroom break and pressures the worker not to do that again. Workers can't even walk at a normal pace. They have to hustle the whole time or they get replaced.

There is not going to be a situation where workers are goofing off because of union rules. The union is not interested in hurting Amazon, merely looking out for worker rights, something Amazon will not do.

 

[Peacenik]

What makes you think those are apples to apples comparison?

Never claimed it was. Merely gave an example from the past.

 

[Peacenik]

Bezos of course doesnt want to lose million doing this.....but dont let that get in the way of it not happening

And in my prior corporate life, i spent 35 + years in the C suites helping executives make decisions just like this one

Now, i own and operate a small business in my retirement because i was bored.....and wasnt ready just for playing golf and fishing

He can sell that building to someone else....sure at a loss, but it is a possibility

When you have it it your mind to not have unions **** everything up, you will do a lot of things that might not make a lot of fiscal sense at the moment

And all you have to do is look at his history of what he did in Alabama and other places to keep unions out, to determine how much this means to him

The building is set up as a consumer stock warehouse. If it is sold, the competition would get it. Amazon might not want to do that.

 

[ttwtt78640]

It's Amazon. They count the workers' steps. Workers are afraid to drink enough water while on the job because if they take time to go to the bathroom the company detects a reduction of production because of the bathroom break and pressures the worker not to do that again. Workers can't even walk at a normal pace. They have to hustle the whole time or they get replaced.

There is not going to be a situation where workers are goofing off because of union rules. The union is not interested in hurting Amazon, merely looking out for worker rights, something Amazon will not do.

Hmm… do you expect the union will not seek to change that (bolded above)? If each worker moves more slowly then either production drops or more workers are needed.

 

[Peacenik]

Tell us how Amazon workers are being "oppressed".

"Wealth inequality" is a fallacious, made up term to inspire an emotional response with an appeal to jealous human nature.

"Wealth inequality", such as it is, is not a problem in any way shape or form.

Those workers have a right to attempt to unionize a private business.

Where unions really need to be eliminated is in the PUBLIC sector. As FDR warned in the 1930s, unions in the public sector is an inherent conflict of interests for obvious reasons.

There is a story of an Amazon warehouse that was so hot inside with no AC that temps rose to 115 degrees. No extra breaks were allowed, and Amazon workers are afraid to drink water on the job because if they go to the bathroom they get dinged for losing productivity. Amazon could have allowed the workers to take extra breaks, feel like they could drink water, but no. Instead, Amazon paid to have ambulances standing by outside for when workers dropped of heat exhaustion. And if they did, there were replaced with fresh on-call workers.

Temporary employees said few people in their working groups actually made it to a permanent Amazon position. Instead, they said they were pushed harder and harder to work faster and faster until they were terminated, quit or were injured.

Chicago Tribune

 

[NatMorton]

How can reducing worker opporession and wealth inequality in America not be a good thing?

By doing it in such a way that those workers lose their jobs.

Or is this one of those "we have to destroy this village to save it" scenarios?

 

[NatMorton]

Who's to say more warehouse/distribution centers won't unionize as well??
This maybe the beginning of a new unionizing wave. Unions are at their best when they first start and before outside interests infiltrate....

It may be. It also may be the start of capital flight.

Capital will always seek its best return. Always.

 

[Lisa]

So, let's imagine in a year or two's time Amazon is looking to expand its capacity in the US. Are they now more or less likely to invest in their unionized NY facility? Might other investment options be more attractive?

I hope that all Amazon workers unionize, warehouse and drivers.

Next it will be Walmart and food service employees. Im tired of employers underpaying workers, so their wages and healthcare are made up with costs by the taxpayers.

 

[NatMorton]

Do you know of many union members that don’t benefit from union representation and protections?

Certainly not. Weekends, health benefits, and many other employment conditions we think of as "normal" are owed to the labor movement.

 

[NatMorton]

I hope that all Amazon workers unionize, warehouse and drivers.

Next it will be Walmart and food service employees. Im tired of employers underpaying workers, so their wages and healthcare are made up with costs by the taxpayers.

And what if investors tire of paying excessively high wages relative to the value that labor delivers?

 

[ttwtt78640]

I hope that all Amazon workers unionize, warehouse and drivers.

Next it will be Walmart and food service employees. Im tired of employers underpaying workers, so their wages and healthcare are made up with costs by the taxpayers.

At least you recognize who is actually being subsidized. Be careful what you wish for, since the cost of federal income tax funded subsidies are born largely by the middle class and above, while the costs of increased labor are apt to fall more heavily on the middle class and below.

 

[gdgyva]

The building is set up as a consumer stock warehouse. If it is sold, the competition would get it. Amazon might not want to do that.

I get it.....and he would be selling it for probably 40 to 50 cents on the dollar for what he has invested

is it a smart move? probably not

when it comes to union busting, Bezos has been ruthless....not always smart

I wouldnt put it past him to do exactly that.....shut the whole thing down and move the distribution elsewhere

And since he still controls the majority of the board and stock.....there isnt a damn thing anyone could do about it

 

[RaleBulgarian]

It would be a mere temporary nuisance to Amazon. The customers are not walking away over it.

The public spectacle of putting 5,000 people out of work and moving a large warehouse operation to another location just to avoid having to work with a union that will work on behalf of all employees to prevent abusive practices (Amazon has a bad track record) and ensure fair compensation and benefits would be more than “a mere temporary nuisance to Amazon”.

No doubt, the behemoth organization would survive the bad press and continue to be profitable to investors.

The question is, why would Amazon executives choose to drag the company through the mud, publicly, when working with the union would present a positive public image that Amazon is willing to make needed changes.

The organization has nothing to lose by working with the duly elected union.

 

[Lisa]

And what if investors tire of paying excessively high wages relative to the value that labor delivers?

A living wage is not a high wage.

 

[NolanVoyd]

At least you recognize who is actually being subsidized. Be careful what you wish for, since the cost of federal income tax funded subsidies are born largely by the middle class and above, while the costs of increased labor are apt to fall more heavily on the middle class and below.

The tax payers currently subsidize the profits of companies like Walmart and Amazon.

They should pay their own employees enough that they do not qualify for food stamps and Medicaid and such. Until they do, the government should bill the companies dollar for dollar the cost the taxpayers incur providing services to their employees.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

Certainly not. Weekends, health benefits, and many other employment conditions we think of as "normal" are owed to the labor movement.

Exactly correct.

While there are legitimate complaints about some union practices, overall and historically, unions are responsible for many of the benefits enjoyed by every working American.

 

[gdgyva]

I hope that all Amazon workers unionize, warehouse and drivers.

Next it will be Walmart and food service employees. Im tired of employers underpaying workers, so their wages and healthcare are made up with costs by the taxpayers.

sorry.....but a cashier at Walmart is only worth so much

same as most non skilled jobs

when 500 people in a 10 square mile area can be trained to do the same job.....that job will NEVER pay much

skills pay the bills.....and those types of jobs will always be on the bottom rungs

you think they are underpaid.....so you believe they should make what $ 15-20 an hour

So then every other job becomes MORE VALUABLE.....and the price of EVERYTHING just keeps going up

and the only ones who dont get the raises fast enough....are those on fixed incomes....pensions and social security

Ask anyone in their shoes what the last 18 months has been like.....and then make it 3x worse if you make a national $ 15 min wage

Oh...and uncle sammie likes everyone too....because more and more rise into higher and higher brackets in the tax tables

So city, county, state, and federal taxes are collected from more people.....and not one person benefited from the change

 

[ttwtt78640]

The tax payers currently subsidize the profits of companies like Walmart and Amazon.

They should pay their own employees enough that they do not qualify for food stamps and Medicare and such. Until they do, the government should bill the companies dollar for dollar the cost the taxpayers incur providing services to their employees.

The fact remains that large employers generally offer higher pay, more fringe benefits and better promotional opportunities to their workers than smaller employers do. It’s fun to pick on Walmart and Amazon, but they are not paying their workers less than smaller businesses are.

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Bigger Companies Once Meant Much Bigger Pay. No More.

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[Jezcoe]

You seem to be ignoring the fact that customers (and investors) are people too. If union made widgets cost more than non-union made widgets then how does the customer benefit from buying union made widgets?

The same (to buy or not to buy decision) exists for investors (stock owners) - if the investment return (dividends paid and/or share price appreciation) is better for a corporation using non-union labor then why invest in a corporation using union labor?

The most dangerous words for the American worker

“Maximize Shareholder Value”