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Agnostics are Believers

That is NOT what I’m saying. Right now, you are claiming no god exists. If you are going to make that claim then you have the burden of proof.

it’s not the same as simply saying “I don’t believe in a god” as I do. I don’t believe in any god, I don’t claim any god exists. I also don’t claim no god exists because I would have to provide proof of that. I don’t know if any god exists, but I won’t believe in one until positive objective proof of its existence is provided.

That is Agnostic Atheism and it’s the only rationally consistent position.

No, it is not. It is also a rational positions to know that all gods are imaginary. Just because human beings made up the concept of gods doesn’t it make it rational to think that concept has any basis in reality.
 
Yh
That is NOT what I’m saying. Right now, you are claiming no god exists. If you are going to make that claim then you have the burden of proof.

it’s not the same as simply saying “I don’t believe in a god” as I do. I don’t believe in any god, I don’t claim any god exists. I also don’t claim no god exists because I would have to provide proof of that. I don’t know if any god exists, but I won’t believe in one until positive objective proof of its existence is provided.

That is Agnostic Atheism and it’s the only rationally consistent position.

 
please see above reply. they are not super sonic.


um, i would go for supernatural. we have no clue how these things operate or UFO's for that matter.

you can't test these things scientifically either. many christians know that there are things way beyond our conventional science. we are starting to scratch the surface when physics leaves the newtonian world and peers into the quantum world.

from there you go into the Spiritual world, that is Light Years ahead of anything you would acknowledge on this forum. .......


but some day you will.

We don't have any objective evidence that UFO's are real. You can't just jump to "they're supernatural" without evidence. Until we have evidence, the only answer is "I don't know".
 
we are starting to scratch the surface when physics leaves the newtonian world and peers into the quantum world.

These theist types like to throw in the word “quantum” because they think it gives them some science cred and also think that it must show the influence of God when it is no different from the primitive humans who thought that an eclipse did the same. It’s still just so much superstition on their part.
 
We don't have any objective evidence that UFO's are real. You can't just jump to "they're supernatural" without evidence. Until we have evidence, the only answer is "I don't know".

You can’t jump to anything about things that people claim they saw without any evidence. This just means that they don’t know, not that I don’t know.
 
Watsup, the deal i think is maybe your imagination can't handle anything but the most Conventional Stuff out there.

for instance, this is just in the news; a bit tooo super natural for you but it exists anyway...


,,

Defense specialist encounters unidentified object 'going faster than the speed of sound underwater' while doing classified work on the Navy's USS Hampton submarine​

  • Bob McGwire claims he encountered an unidentified submerged object
  • The scientist was conducting classified work on the Navy's USS Hampton
  • He wasn't told to keep it quiet and said he was 'blowing this wide open'
,,

please see above reply. they are not super sonic.

um, i would go for supernatural. we have no clue how these things operate or UFO's for that matter.

,,
you can't test these things scientifically either. many christians know that there are things way beyond our conventional science. we are starting to scratch the surface when physics leaves the newtonian world and peers into the quantum world.

from there you go into the Spiritual world, that is Light Years ahead of anything you would acknowledge on this forum. .......


but some day you will.
,,
These theist types like to throw in the word “quantum” because they think it gives them some science cred and also think that it must show the influence of God when it is no different from the primitive humans who thought that an eclipse did the same. It’s still just so much superstition on their part.

don't need science cred.

the question at the moment i am discussing is 'supersonic speeds underwater' ???

we have no Clue about these things kinda like ufo's. deflections not needed thank you.

Hypercavitating torpedos are supersonic underwater objects. It doesn’t require a supernatural explanation.

nice try Questar. hypercavitating torpedoes don't even come close to supersonic speeds underwater. once that was established, the Forum got strangely Quiet.

LOL, and for good reason. when the unbeliever faces Evidence of the Supernatural, this is the Expected Result, they have no answer. they do cling stubbornly to their science and rational god for dear life.
The Russian VA-111 Shkval is one example of a supercavitating torpedo that can reach speeds in excess of 200 knots (230 miles per hour) underwater. Iran has also reportedly developed a variant of the Russian Shkval called the Hoot . The German navy has worked on the development of a supercavitating torpedo called the Superkavitierender Unterwasserlaufkörper, but it never went into production . The U.S. Navy has also shown interest in supercavitating torpedo technology .

our torpedoes can reach speeds of 200 knots, not even close to supersonic speeds.

honestly people, i didn't expect an answer from you all. when an atheist meets the Supernatural it gives them a Bad Hair day, and then kinda run away.

blessings people. have fun with this one and no i am neither waiting or holding my breath.

you could look into the mirror and re-think things just a little. maybe open the door a Crack and let in some Light. ???


,
 
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It's that being either dualist or monist is not an inherent cognitive structure (like interpreting the world in 3 physical dimensions, or enhanced facial recognition skills). They're socially constructed beliefs.
Agreed; but we could likewise say that morality and language are socially constructed systems, and our nature/development predisposes us towards acceptance of those. I should note/reiterate that the description "natural born dualists" was not my phrase but Richard Dawkins' (more precisely Richard Dawkins quoting developmental psychologist Paul Bloom), and taken literally is certainly hyperbole. I'm not suggesting that three year olds are sitting there thinking "The metaphysical substance of this sippy cup must have a set of essential properties fundamentally distinct from the substance of my own cognition"; I'm saying that they view the world at large as 'other,' as different from themselves (and from other selves). I'm saying that recognizing some things about their own self, the extent of their own body's feelings and perceptions, is much easier than conceiving that there are feelings or perceptions elsewhere that aren't their own, and while they do eventually recognize other selves in their family (likely sometime before the terrible twos) doing so for animals or even other humans takes a lot longer. Do you really think that's not the case?

This is all in an attempt to answer the question of why - having no ability to detect the absence of consciousness and therefore having no logical or empirical basis for imagining the existence of non-conscious stuff at all - it seems so commonplace in our societies for people to assume materialism as the only/natural alternative to dualism. (A particularly striking but hardly unique example being that even an academic like Dawkins in discussing the subject just pretends that idealism/mental monism doesn't even exist; either justifiably confident that most of his readers wouldn't notice or genuinely not even thinking about it himself.) As I noted I think there are two big cultural reasons for that - our Christian heritage of dualism viewing 'the world' as distinct from God and 'the flesh' as distinct from 'spirit,' and the current materialist tendencies of capitalism viewing everything in the world up to animals and often even workers/competitors as little more than inert things to be exploited - but it seems likely that there's also a bias from our cognitive development as infants.

You're likely interpreting this as "evidence for inherent dualism" because you grew up with, or were extensively exposed to, dualist societies.
I agree that study doesn't prove the point of a tendency or at least bias towards dualism, but it does suggest commonplace tendencies which as you suggest can be easily interpreted as and reinforce the view that minds and bodies/matter are largely distinct.

It's not based on scientific research, but empiricism -- as in, knowledge gained via experience, rather than reasoning -- is much broader than science.
True, which makes it all the more striking when we recognize that the idea of non-conscious material stuff has no empirical basis at all! How do you observe or experience the absence of consciousness? As I've pointed out, all we can do is infer its presence based on similarities of structure and behaviour, which starts to become pretty tenuous beyond the animal world... but inferring its absence based on the absence of those structures and behaviours is wholly fallacious, denying the antecedent.

No, it's just an assumption that if you have a mind, then it has some sort of substrate.
We all acknowledge the existence of an external reality, yes, but it doesn't follow from that that all minds must have some further substrate. We could make a similar point about anything that exists, that everything must have some more fundamental substrate... except the most fundamental things that don't. There's no necessary reason why even human minds couldn't be that type of most fundamental thing without any further substrate, as in solipsism; in practice, based on our acknowledgement of a reality external to our minds we do view human minds as requiring (or at least having) a substrate/brains, but that in no way implies that "you need some sort of brain in order to have mental stuff."

I said nothing of the sort. I'm just saying that if you have mental activity, it has to have some kind of substrate. I see no reason why that substrate can't be silicon or some other physical substance.
There's no basis for asserting mental activity/consciousness has to have some kind of substrate beyond itself, without first supposing that consciousness only exists in certain cases for which we can identify a substrate. It's a circular argument in other words.
 
We have discussed this before. It is incumbent upon the person or persons who first propose an item to them provide evidence of same before it has any merit.
You have proposed that there is some kind of non-conscious 'material' stuff. Where is your evidence to support that proposal?

You have proposed an atheistic reality. Where is your evidence to support that proposal?
 
You have proposed that there is some kind of non-conscious 'material' stuff. Where is your evidence to support that proposal?

You have proposed an atheistic reality. Where is your evidence to support that proposal?

See post #291 and try to understand it.
 
A typical agnostic will claim that “there is the possibility of a God/gods/ID, but then add a qualifier such as “but the probability is extremely low” to show their lack of confidence in the actuality of such an entity.

Where did you get this idea?
 
We have discussed this before. It is incumbent upon the person or persons who first propose an item to them provide evidence of same before it has any merit.
You have proposed that there is some kind of non-conscious 'material' stuff. Where is your evidence to support that proposal?

You have proposed an atheistic reality. Where is your evidence to support that proposal?
See post #291 and try to understand it.
Are you pretending that you haven't proposed those things? Or are you just saying that in this case you are unwilling/unable to provide evidence for what you've proposed?
 
Are you pretending that you haven't proposed those things? Or are you just saying that in this case you are unwilling/unable to provide evidence for what you've proposed?

I have not made the initial proposal. You have done so, and have been unwilling to provide any objective, reality-based evidence for it. In fact, you won’t even tell us where this non-brain consciousness might supposedly resides.. You seem intelligent, but this puts your claim on the same level as those simplistic folks in here and elsewhere who proffer their “God” or “ID” without providing an iota of said evidence. I am not making a claim, per se, but rather REJECTING your claim, and theirs, for lack of evidence. This is not that difficult to understand.
Now—do you have any evidence, or can you tell us where this consciousness that you claim resides? The fact that you try to brush aside these central questions with a verbal jui-jitsu shows that they are on the same level of “made-up” as said God/ID believers.
 
You made a factual claim and provided no basis for it.

I still can’t proceed unless and until you can provide me with how and why you consider it to be in error. I can’t fight ghosts. Again, what is specifically wrong with the statement?
 
I still can’t proceed unless and until you can provide me with how and why you consider it to be in error. I can’t fight ghosts. Again, what is specifically wrong with the statement?

Everything about it appears to be in error. You based an entire thread on what you claim that "a typical agnostic will claim," but provided no factual basis for that premise, even though it is dubious at best.
 
And where exactly in that post did I say “matter has no physical basis”?

Why don’t you admit you lied about me?
You said this..

"The possibility that we might develop the technology to detect non-physical things in the future".

Again, something can't be made out of nothing.

The possibility of it occurring sometime in the future is as dumb as saying non-physical things exist now.
 
Agreed; but we could likewise say that morality and language are socially constructed systems, and our nature/development predisposes us towards acceptance of those. I should note/reiterate that the description "natural born dualists" was not my phrase but Richard Dawkins' (more precisely Richard Dawkins quoting developmental psychologist Paul Bloom), and taken literally is certainly hyperbole. I'm not suggesting that three year olds are sitting there thinking "The metaphysical substance of this sippy cup must have a set of essential properties fundamentally distinct from the substance of my own cognition"; I'm saying that they view the world at large as 'other,' as different from themselves (and from other selves). I'm saying that recognizing some things about their own self, the extent of their own body's feelings and perceptions, is much easier than conceiving that there are feelings or perceptions elsewhere that aren't their own, and while they do eventually recognize other selves in their family (likely sometime before the terrible twos) doing so for animals or even other humans takes a lot longer. Do you really think that's not the case?

This is all in an attempt to answer the question of why - having no ability to detect the absence of consciousness and therefore having no logical or empirical basis for imagining the existence of non-conscious stuff at all - it seems so commonplace in our societies for people to assume materialism as the only/natural alternative to dualism. (A particularly striking but hardly unique example being that even an academic like Dawkins in discussing the subject just pretends that idealism/mental monism doesn't even exist; either justifiably confident that most of his readers wouldn't notice or genuinely not even thinking about it himself.) As I noted I think there are two big cultural reasons for that - our Christian heritage of dualism viewing 'the world' as distinct from God and 'the flesh' as distinct from 'spirit,' and the current materialist tendencies of capitalism viewing everything in the world up to animals and often even workers/competitors as little more than inert things to be exploited - but it seems likely that there's also a bias from our cognitive development as infants.


I agree that study doesn't prove the point of a tendency or at least bias towards dualism, but it does suggest commonplace tendencies which as you suggest can be easily interpreted as and reinforce the view that minds and bodies/matter are largely distinct.


True, which makes it all the more striking when we recognize that the idea of non-conscious material stuff has no empirical basis at all! How do you observe or experience the absence of consciousness? As I've pointed out, all we can do is infer its presence based on similarities of structure and behaviour, which starts to become pretty tenuous beyond the animal world... but inferring its absence based on the absence of those structures and behaviours is wholly fallacious, denying the antecedent.


We all acknowledge the existence of an external reality, yes, but it doesn't follow from that that all minds must have some further substrate. We could make a similar point about anything that exists, that everything must have some more fundamental substrate... except the most fundamental things that don't. There's no necessary reason why even human minds couldn't be that type of most fundamental thing without any further substrate, as in solipsism; in practice, based on our acknowledgement of a reality external to our minds we do view human minds as requiring (or at least having) a substrate/brains, but that in no way implies that "you need some sort of brain in order to have mental stuff."


There's no basis for asserting mental activity/consciousness has to have some kind of substrate beyond itself, without first supposing that consciousness only exists in certain cases for which we can identify a substrate. It's a circular argument in other words.
Simply put, take away a persons brain and there is no reality or soul or spirit.

Your dead, you don't exist anymore.

Biology and physiology 101
 
You said this..

"The possibility that we might develop the technology to detect non-physical things in the future".

Again, something can't be made out of nothing.

The possibility of it occurring sometime in the future is as dumb as saying non-physical things exist now.

Where are you getting this idea that “non-physical” and “nothing” are the same thing thing?
 
I have not made the initial proposal. You have done so, and have been unwilling to provide any objective, reality-based evidence for it. In fact, you won’t even tell us where this non-brain consciousness might supposedly resides.. You seem intelligent, but this puts your claim on the same level as those simplistic folks in here and elsewhere who proffer their “God” or “ID” without providing an iota of said evidence. I am not making a claim, per se, but rather REJECTING your claim, and theirs, for lack of evidence. This is not that difficult to understand.
Now—do you have any evidence, or can you tell us where this consciousness that you claim resides? The fact that you try to brush aside these central questions with a verbal jui-jitsu shows that they are on the same level of “made-up” as said God/ID believers.
Let's pretend (for the sake of argument) that there is no evidence for a conscious reality; then if (as seems quite clear) there is also no evidence for a non-conscious reality, the two would be on exactly the same footing. Two equally broad and vague options which are mutually exclusive and collectively exhaustive; the plausibility of a conscious reality would be exactly the same as the plausibility of a non-conscious reality, 50/50.

They're not actually on equal footing of course, for at least three main reasons that I've outlined (so far), none of which have been coherently addressed:
1 > We know that consciousness is real - it's literally the most certain thing we possibly can know - whereas your supposed non-conscious 'material' stuff is pure speculation (whose facile 'common sense' plausibility likely derives from our societies' dualist Christian heritage, our materialist capitalist culture, and some biases from our infantile cognitive development). Extrapolating from our certainty that consciousness is real to the likelihood that reality is conscious, while far from certain, is more reasonable than a wild shot in the dark about non-conscious stuff.​
2 > Introducing this speculative non-conscious material reality means introducing the unresolved hard problem of consciousness, the question of how observable objective quantitative stuff could even in theory give rise to undetectable subjective qualitative phenomena at all; it means introducing a necessary premise of one's worldview that essentially amounts to "There was non-conscious stuff, then some magic happened and there was consciousness."​
3 > Our reality appears to be highly complex and 'finely-tuned', and there are only two observed mechanisms by which complexity can develop from simpler antecedents; biological evolution based on enduring selection of genetic variation, and conscious thought based on enduring selection of 'memetic' variation: So while the highly complex omni-god of traditional Christianity fails the parsimony test as any kind of explanation for our complex reality, extrapolating from our certainty that consciousness is real to the likelihood that reality is conscious also provides a plausible potential answer to some other enduring mysteries we face by allowing an observation-derived simple-to-complex mechanism that applies to reality as a whole (ironically, essentially taking parts of Hume's "infant deity" rhetoric quite seriously).​
 
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Let's pretend (for the sake of argument) that there is no evidence for a conscious reality;

Once again, you are just adding words for the sake of obfuscation rather than clarity. What are you claiming is a “conscious reality? You need to explain what you mean by that. As it stands, it’s pretty much just your normal nonsense.


then if (as seems quite clear) there is also no evidence for a non-conscious reality,

Same here. Explain what you mean by a non-conscious reality. Are you saying that the reality of their actually being an Earth and a universe goes away if one person loses consciousness? That seems quite wacky.
 
They're not actually on equal footing of course, for at least three main reasons that I've outlined (so far), none of which have been coherently addressed:
I'd actually already hinted at a fourth reason also, which I didn't include above because what I'd mentioned of it in a previous post was only a fairly minor point, but on reflection is probably even more important than #3 above:

4 > There are plausible though not conclusive counter-examples to the theory that brains are necessary for consciousness even in humans, such as the case of Pam Reynolds' documented experience of vivid consciousness during an operation involving clinical death and total EEG flatline. Note that while the theory of a conscious reality is perfectly compatible with brains being necessary for consciousness in humans, evidence that brain activity may not be necessary for consciousness even in humans would pretty much cripple any materialist view. Thus while we obviously don't know whether Pam's experience occurred at the same time period of her operation as the EEG flatline, a proponent of materialism would have to simply assume blindly that it could not have despite the lack of evidence supporting that assumption. In other words the idea of a non-conscious reality is a closed, exclusionary theory which makes it inherently less plausible than more open theories since it requires a more exacting set of conditions to hold in order for it to be true, which are often contrary to people's reported observations.​
 
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