Advocates: High court signals it won't stop $15 minimum wage[W:71]

[Absentglare]

Re: Advocates: High court signals it won't stop $15 minimum wage

And we'll never run out of high schoolers or college aged kids. You don't need college to get a skill. In fact, college is one of the biggest scams forced on our youth today, putting them in significant amounts of debt to institutions who've inflated their prices at hundreds of % faster than the inflation rate of the economy.

It's not a matter of running out, it's a matter of gating access to higher education by a standard that looks at inherited wealth. Why should rich kids get such a huge educational head start, while poor kids must commit to being saddled debt ? That means there are smart poor kids who don't get top college spots, instead, those spots go to dumb rich kids. That's wasted potential.

College is not a scam. I worked 30+ hrs/week while taking a full class load and ate peanut butter toast three times a day to make ends meet. After four years of hard work, my first job offer immediately leapfrogged me well past household median income in the US. Best investment i've ever made, by far.

 

[Absentglare]

underpaying?... oh, you mean paying them in accordance with their skills and the law.

when minium wage is 15 bucks an hours, we'll relive this very discussion, no doubt.. .15 an hour will also be " underpaying" in due course.... it's always true that other people never believe you are paying people "enough".

in the mean time, we'll continue to overvalue burger flippers and devalue blue collar skilled workers...and pretend that's a good thing.

No, it's NOT in accordance with their skills. It's in accordance with the lowest they can pay them. The entire problem is that people are not compensated (paid) in proportion to their contribution (work). Their work has value, and they are getting underpaid. This is lucrative for the owner, to pay an employee less than their labor is worth, because they can redirect the resultant surplus into their own pockets.

 

[JasperL]

Re: Advocates: High court signals it won't stop $15 minimum wage

And that's not the fault of the employer, whom you want to bear the financial burden.

Perhaps in part, because the employer is enjoying the benefits of the labor, and so it seems to me rational that employers should (in a perfect world) pay enough to sustain a reasonable standard of living for someone working full time in a job and fulfilling their part of the bargain. I've said several times already I'm also fine with taxpayers (you and me) picking up the remainder with transfer payments because they are more efficient at alleviating the problems associated with poverty.

What doesn't help is saying poor people shouldn't have babies. We KNOW they will - 26% of Tennessee children ARE in families with income of poverty or below. Nor does it help to assume that everyone can be above average with skills in high demand and salaries to match. We simply will have people for lots of reasons with poor education and few skills and who cannot command a middle class wage, and so the question remains what to do about them. Heck, half the country IS below average intelligence, many of them far below. They're not going to make it in college, and expecting them to is delusional. Many can learn a trade and Tennessee is ahead of the curve on that making community college and trade schools virtually free for Tennessee residents. That's a partial answer, but we'll still need people at fast food places, stocking shelves, mowing yards, etc....millions of jobs that will never require many skills, and people have to fill them.

 

[chuckiechan]

Re: Advocates: High court signals it won't stop $15 minimum wage

I'd prefer the wage be determined mostly by market forces: get illegal aliens out of the workforce, and cut back on legal immigration of low wage workers.

Instead, we are directly putting our hand on the throttle of inflation and higher unemployment.

 

[Taylor]

Re: Advocates: High court signals it won't stop $15 minimum wage

Sorry- but can you clarify this point for me ?

?
I wish I could, but I'm as puzzled about the point you're trying to make as you are.

 

[Taylor]

Re: Advocates: High court signals it won't stop $15 minimum wage

Here's the deal. If everybody in the country got a college education, we are still going to need burger flippers and Wal-Mart greeters. There is absolutely no reason to make them go hungry or homeless, that is, unless we believe in barbarism as opposed to Christian values.

There was probably a time not too long ago when someone said the same thing about filling attendants, elevator operators, bathroom attendants, etc.

No, we really don't need burger flippers and Wal-Mart greeters.

 

[JasperL]

Re: Advocates: High court signals it won't stop $15 minimum wage

There was probably a time not too long ago when someone said the same thing about filling attendants, elevator operators, bathroom attendants, etc.

No, we really don't need burger flippers and Wal-Mart greeters.

LOL, you're a master at deliberately avoiding the point. If burger flippers go away, then substitute whatever jobs employing millions of individuals are at the bottom of the wage scale and skill scale and pay at or near minimum wage.... but you knew that. :roll:

 

[Absentglare]

Re: Advocates: High court signals it won't stop $15 minimum wage

?
I wish I could, but I'm as puzzled about the point you're trying to make as you are.

I am not confused. I am tasking you to explain your claim here :

No, actually. I made more than minimum wage and it was less than it is now, adjusting for inflation.

Do you have any approximate years ? Any amounts in real dollars ?

 

[Absentglare]

Re: Advocates: High court signals it won't stop $15 minimum wage

There was probably a time not too long ago when someone said the same thing about filling attendants, elevator operators, bathroom attendants, etc.

No, we really don't need burger flippers and Wal-Mart greeters.

This statement is very naïve.

The point isn't that we will perpetually need these specific jobs. It's that there have always been positions that need to be filled, and we're not about to eliminate them overnight because the profit margins changed from 34.3% to 34%.

 

[Taylor]

Re: Advocates: High court signals it won't stop $15 minimum wage

LOL, you're a master at deliberately avoiding the point. If burger flippers go away, then substitute whatever jobs employing millions of individuals are at the bottom of the wage scale and skill scale and pay at or near minimum wage.... but you knew that. :roll:

The answer would be the same - or perhaps you can provide examples of minimum wage jobs that are absolutely essential to the economy such that if the entire nation were college-educated, SOMEONE would have to lower themselves to keep the nation going and by golly we'd better pay that hero a living wage!!

OMG! Who's going to say hi to me at Walmart!
Wait! You expect me to eat a burger that has not been flipped by an actual person holding an actual spatula? Have you lost your mind!!??

 

[Taylor]

Re: Advocates: High court signals it won't stop $15 minimum wage

I am not confused. I am tasking you to explain your claim here :



Do you have any approximate years ? Any amounts in real dollars ?

Sure. Pick just about any year after 1985 and the inflation-adjusted minimum wage is less than the current $7.25.

https://splicer.com/2013/12/10/chart-minimum-wage-cost-living-adjusted-dollars

 

[Taylor]

Re: Advocates: High court signals it won't stop $15 minimum wage

This statement is very naïve.

The point isn't that we will perpetually need these specific jobs. It's that there have always been positions that need to be filled, and we're not about to eliminate them overnight because the profit margins changed from 34.3% to 34%.

Not naive at all. We're eliminating such jobs in droves. The segment workers at minimum wage today is some like 1/6th of what it was in the 80's.

 

[Far right dem]

Good decision. The way I see it, if McDonald's full time employees are collecting food stamps, they are not being lazy. McDonald's is stealing money from the taxpayers instead. But McDonald's can no longer do it in many cities and in some states. The Ninth Circuit Court decision stands.

Article is here.

What about the franchisees? I am sure the corporate owned ones can handle but not sure about the ones independently operated.

 

[ludin]

Re: Advocates: High court signals it won't stop $15 minimum wage

Right, it will, and the question is how to address the worst of the effects of poverty, especially for families.

pricing them out of jobs is not a start.

So, you want to take the kids and put them in orphanages?

stick to the topic. I know it is hard for liberal to do without bringing up strawman arguments
or some other blather that doesn't deal with what is being discussed.

Right, that's what I said.

no that is what my article said not you.

I guess we'll see whether it's a good thing or bad thing.

read the article I posted so far it doesn't look good and it hasn't hit 15 an hour yet.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Advocates: High court signals it won't stop $15 minimum wage

a classic case where economic reality takes a back seat to what "feels good". that being said, states have the power to set minimum wages. The federal government-not properly so. I don't know why the Federal courts should even be involved in a state setting a MW

 

[ludin]

Re: Advocates: High court signals it won't stop $15 minimum wage

In real dollars, it goes up and down because it's not indexed to inflation :

wages are technically supposed to be. they are directed by supply and demand of the market place with the knowledge and skill of the employee.

I don't recall anyone saying that there are no consequences to the maneuver. In some industries, it could interfere with our international economic competitiveness. The problem with that complaint is that most of those industries already left our shores long ago. Another problem with that complaint is that those poor people aren't necessarily getting any more money overall- we could cut corporate income taxes to compensate for the reduced need in public assistance.

according to most reports they won't get hardly any of the minimum wage increase either, but way to ignore things that you don't like.

The reason that we shouldn't raise the federal minimum wage to $15/hr is that it's kind of arbitrary and doesn't really apply across the entire nation the same. Some minimum wage employee in small town Louisiana would likely have a lot more spare cash than a minimum wage employee in New York City.

or it could be that raising it to 15 an hour just sets a new standard of poverty.

But your real question is "why don't we redistribute more income from the rich to the poor?" And the answer to that question is because the rich are greedy and most people don't understand economics.

:doh they are hardly as greedy as the people attempting to take something they didn't earn and using threat of government to do it.
no most of the people that say those kind of things don't understand economics.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: Advocates: High court signals it won't stop $15 minimum wage

Sure. Pick just about any year after 1985 and the inflation-adjusted minimum wage is less than the current $7.25.

https://splicer.com/2013/12/10/chart-minimum-wage-cost-living-adjusted-dollars

No, that's about the same until 2006 with ups and downs.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: Advocates: High court signals it won't stop $15 minimum wage

Not naive at all. We're eliminating such jobs in droves. The segment workers at minimum wage today is some like 1/6th of what it was in the 80's.

I'd say more like 1/4th :

But that's still irrelevant. Our economy has been shifting toward higher education and therefore more skilled labor for a hundred years.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: Advocates: High court signals it won't stop $15 minimum wage

wages are technically supposed to be. they are directed by supply and demand of the market place with the knowledge and skill of the employee.

No, they are assumed to be, but that is not always the case. Consider two employees of equal contribution where one negotiates a higher salary and the other doesn't. Extend that phenomenon across 320 million competing economic actors. Use initial conditions where considerable wealth is biased to a very small number of individuals.

according to most reports they won't get hardly any of the minimum wage increase either, but way to ignore things that you don't like.

Feel free to cite a link to one of these. I have heard the argument before that they work fewer hours as a result. That's fine, then they spend less on daycare, or have more time for multiple jobs.

or it could be that raising it to 15 an hour just sets a new standard of poverty.

Not really, poverty can be defined by absolute standards, standards that are not relative.

https://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/methods/definitions.html

Is it really so bad to not have such poor people ? That implies less crime, and a happier public.

:doh they are hardly as greedy as the people attempting to take something they didn't earn and using threat of government to do it.
no most of the people that say those kind of things don't understand economics.

That's just a misrepresentation. Some people are very successful, but that success doesn't occur in a vacuum, it occurs within a society that can legally levy taxes on transactions within its own sovereignty.

Using those taxes to benefit the society, by ensuring that money circulates well and the economy grows as a result, spreading resources around so that we can be more productive on the whole, is a worthwhile endeavor.

 

[ludin]

Re: Advocates: High court signals it won't stop $15 minimum wage

No, they are assumed to be, but that is not always the case. Consider two employees of equal contribution where one negotiates a higher salary and the other doesn't. Extend that phenomenon across 320 million competing economic actors. Use initial conditions where considerable wealth is biased to a very small number of individuals.

the other person should have negotiated better or found a better job opening.
equal opportunity doesn't not mean equal outcome nor should it.

Feel free to cite a link to one of these. I have heard the argument before that they work fewer hours as a result. That's fine, then they spend less on daycare, or have more time for multiple jobs.

I already did a few pages back. the majority of the money goes to people on the in the lower middle income/ middle income than the lower income levels.

Not really, poverty can be defined by absolute standards, standards that are not relative.

yes it does as the economy adjusts upward to face the rising wages. the same as it did every other time they raised minimum wage.
prices just climb to adjust for the extra costs and everything else is left in the dust.

now you have people making 15 an hour and as prices climb to meet the new expenses they are just paying more for the
same and other people suffer wage losses.

Is it really so bad to not have such poor people ? That implies less crime, and a happier public.

pipedream stark trek fantasy. appeal to emotion argument as well.

That's just a misrepresentation. Some people are very successful, but that success doesn't occur in a vacuum, it occurs within a society that can legally levy taxes on transactions within its own sovereignty.

no it isn't it is fully accurate. attempting to take away what someone earns simply because you want it for yourself is more greedy than the person who earned it.
you did nothing to earn what you want to take. so yes you are more greedy.
Using those taxes to benefit the society, by ensuring that money circulates well and the economy grows as a result, spreading resources around so that we can be more productive on the whole, is a worthwhile endeavor.

 

[Taylor]

Re: Advocates: High court signals it won't stop $15 minimum wage

No, that's about the same until 2006 with ups and downs.

If by "about the same" you mean less, then yeah.

 

[Taylor]

Re: Advocates: High court signals it won't stop $15 minimum wage

I'd say more like 1/4th :

Your chart includes employees "below" minimum wage - most of whom earn tips and make above minimum wage.

 

[ludin]

Re: Advocates: High court signals it won't stop $15 minimum wage

Your chart includes employees "below" minimum wage - most of whom earn tips and make above minimum wage.

according to the BLS only 2% of the workforce actually earns minimum wage.
of those the majority do not have a high school diploma or only a high school diploma.

 

[Taylor]

Re: Advocates: High court signals it won't stop $15 minimum wage

according to the BLS only 2% of the workforce actually earns minimum wage.
of those the majority do not have a high school diploma or only a high school diploma.

And only about 1/5th of that 2% are what most people would call "poor" - half are kids and 2/3rds work only part time. If the real aim is to "help the poor" than raising the minimum wage isn't the way to go.

 

[ludin]

Re: Advocates: High court signals it won't stop $15 minimum wage

And only about 1/5th of that 2% are what most people would call "poor" - half are kids and 2/3rds work only part time. If the real aim is to "help the poor" than raising the minimum wage isn't the way to go.

pretty much in line with the forbes article that I posted on the previous few pages.