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Adulterers May be Stoned under New Afghan Law, Official says

Karzaui said two days ago that stoning would not be in the law. Odd that someone who'se following so closely should miss the fact, but then it bows the bait thread out of the water.
 
Manc Skipper said:
Karzaui said two days ago that stoning would not be in the law. Odd that someone who'se following so closely should miss the fact, but then it bows the bait thread out of the water.
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Heya Skipper :2wave: .....nah not really. Since Karzai saying so 2 days ago comes after this was already up in the news on the 25th, 5days out before Karzai could even open his mouth about it. Whats really Odd is Karzai thinking he will be part of any process to even be able to have a say about anything in the future of Afghanistan.
 
MMC said:
Death by stoning for convicted adulterers is being written into Afghan law, a senior official said on Monday, the latest sign that human rights won at great cost since the Taliban were ousted in 2001 are rolling back as foreign troops withdraw.

"We are working on the draft of a sharia penal code where the punishment for adultery, if there are four eyewitnesses, is stoning," said Rohullah Qarizada, who is part of the sharia Islamic law committee working on the draft and head of the Afghan Independent Bar Association.

Billions have been invested on promoting human rights in Afghanistan over more than 12 years of war and donors fear that hard won progress, particularly for women, may be eroding.

During the Taliban's 1996-2001 time in power, convicted adulterers were routinely shot or stoned in executions held mostly on Fridays. Women were not permitted to go out on their own, girls were barred from schools and men were obliged to grow long beards.

Providing fresh evidence popular support for the brutal punishment has endured, two lovers narrowly escaped being stoned in Baghlan province north of Kabul, but were publicly shot over the weekend instead, officials said.

The U.S. based rights group has urged funding to be tied to commitments and last month, Norway took the rare step of cutting aid on the grounds that Afghanistan had failed to meet commitments to protect women's rights and fight corruption.

Most donors, however, have stopped short of using money to pressure President Hamid Karzai's administration and U.S. and United Nations officials were aware of the plan to reintroduce stoning, Qarizada said.....snip~

Adulterers may be stoned under new Afghan law, official says


What do you think about this? Do you think Obama knew about this LAW before his talks with Karzai recently? Norway wont give them any assistance. Why should we?
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Talk about an incentive to stay true blue. I guess in Afghanistan when they say "Until death do you part," they mean it.
 
Oh, tsk tsk people. Here I was under the impression that all cultures and religions are equal! Is that not the current (Lefty) thinking? Where is your respect for the right of people to embrace their culture and religion? Aren't other cultures just awesome? I mean just because a culture has FGM, child brides, stoning of adulterers, killing gays and death to apostates, doesn't mean the culture/religion is bad, right? Surely all cultures are equal to yours and mine, hmmmmmmm? Should we not respect other cultures, hmmmmmm?

Now I will wait for someone to write a response that tells me that they don't understand sarcasm or that I actually believe what I wrote! However, it is what we have been told you know...that all cultures and religions are equal and we in the West have to respect them.
 
Perotista said:
Talk about an incentive to stay true blue. I guess in Afghanistan when they say "Until death do you part," they mean it.
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I was looking at the pics of them stoning women......they put them into the ground with only their upper Chest to the head sticking out of the ground. Then they throw stones at them. Age don't matter. Some of the rocks are bigger than a man's hand. Course their arms are tied down or behind them.

Its torture to me.....not punishment of law.
 
Goshin said:
Barbarians. We should stop sending our own people into harm's way to aid them, if they are simply going to revert to savagery the instant we turn them loose.
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Our initial interest in Afghanistan was to stop UBL and AQ from using that country as a training ground and safe haven. To accomplish that we allied ourselves with the Northern Alliance which consisted of 14 different tribes and we, along with the Northern Alliance drove the Taliban and AQ out of Afghanistan. We did this with a few SF and paramilitary advisers on the ground and our air power. Mission accomplished. If the Taliban tried to return, we could have kept a very SF and paramilitary on the ground to coordinate air strikes for the Northern Alliance. In instances like this, the smaller the footprint we have, the better we are in the long run.

But no, we had to embark on what has become known as nation building. We never took into account Afghanistan was just a name on the map and not really a country as we know a country to be. That each tribe had their own area they ruled over and if needed they had a means of shifting alliances with tribes when threaten. Most Afghani's never heard of Kabul and there really wasn't any central government as we know it. In other words the concept of a united nation was foreign to them. Their nation was their tribe and what ever land they ruled over, not the country of Afghanistan. They were much like all the different tribes of American Indians, you had stronger tribes and weaker tribes, but no capital at all for the many tribes.

Why all of the above? All most of the tribes wanted was to return to their lands the Taliban had driven them off and to continue to live as they had for thousands of years, under their own local tribal elders and leaders. Most didn't want to be united under the yoke of another tribe. To most of what were our former allies and friends of the Northern Alliance, the U.S. is now no better than the Taliban we helped them drive out. We didn't let them choose their own form of government, we forced democracy on them and forced them to live under and be ruled by Karzi's tribe in the name of democracy. Sure they voted, but most didn't have the faintest idea what they were doing for voting for.

Nation building, is that nothing more than another kind and considerate name for forcing a type of government upon a people that they don't want? The USSR tried to force communism on the world, but we were there to stop them and told those countries and people we would stop them so they would be free to choose they own type of government they wanted and not have to be forced to adopt communism.

Stone age in thoughts and ways, probably so. But does that give us the right to burst on the scene and force our ways on them? Sure we helped them drive the Taliban, UBL and AQ out of their country, but we did that for us to stop UBL and AQ from having training grounds and a safe haven from which to operate from. Since the Taliban was in cahoots with AQ, so much the better.

One has to remember we didn't introduce our thousands and thousands of troops into Afghanistan until we took it upon ourselves to nation build, to remake and undo thousands of years of self determination of how they rule themselves. Nation building to force democracy on them, something they didn't ask for and apparently still do not want.
 
MMC said:
I was looking at the pics of them stoning women......they put them into the ground with only their upper Chest to the head sticking out of the ground. Then they throw stones at them. Age don't matter. Some of the rocks are bigger than a man's hand. Course their arms are tied down or behind them.

Its torture to me.....not punishment of law.
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Not to defend the practice as that is impossible. But different countries do have different ethics, traditions, customs, history and ways of living. There is no defending or condoning of the practice, it is barbaric. At least under our eyes and values. But mankind has a long history of being very inhumane to other human beings. The reasons vary, but human beings are not a very kind species when it comes to their own.
 
Perotista said:
Not to defend the practice as that is impossible. But different countries do have different ethics, traditions, customs, history and ways of living. There is no defending or condoning of the practice, it is barbaric. At least under our eyes and values. But mankind has a long history of being very inhumane to other human beings. The reasons vary, but human beings are not a very kind species when it comes to their own.
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Myself I take the perspective.....they are not an enemy to their people. Even with the breaking of the their so called law.
 
Perotista said:
Not to defend the practice as that is impossible. But different countries do have different ethics, traditions, customs, history and ways of living. There is no defending or condoning of the practice, it is barbaric. At least under our eyes and values. But mankind has a long history of being very inhumane to other human beings. The reasons vary, but human beings are not a very kind species when it comes to their own.
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You never hear what happens to the men involved, though. Maybe nothing, since it's obviously the woman's fault, even if she is raped. That does seem a bit unfair to normal people... :eek:
 
MMC said:
Mornin EW. :2wave: Yeah this morning Karzai has called for the stopping of all raids in Afghanistan and Drone strikes. Since Thursday morning, we admitted to killing some kid who was on a motorcycle that was being chased. Also two women were injured in the strike. When they drone reached out and touched somebody. He hasn't signed the agreement.....and Rice told him if he don't. We pull the plug on all of it. Aid too.
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Often the greatest injustices we do we do to one another under the presumption that our ways and our values are better than others - never mind the injustices we're doing to "prove" it.

We may think the Afghans savages and their customs barbaric - and by any measure that is our own, they are - but what savagery do we commit to get our point across?

Remember the rights of the savage, as we call him. Remember that the happiness of his humble home, remember that the sanctity of life in the hill villages of Afghanistan, among the winter snows, is as inviolable in the eye of Almighty God, as can be your own. - William Gladstone
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EdwinWillers said:
Often the greatest injustices we do we do to one another under the presumption that our ways and our values are better than others - never mind the injustices we're doing to "prove" it.

We may think the Afghans savages and their customs barbaric - and by any measure that is our own, they are - but what savagery do we commit to get our point across?
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Lets hope Karzai wont sign.....then our people can get out of there. Leave them to their own ways. But once we do go and if it is all of it. Then we should also include the Office we gave the Taliban in Qatar. Close down our Embassy there. Anytime they want to negotiate.....send them thru an intermediary. Treat them as if they don't even exist.

Which would be for any future attempts to try and talk on the Global Stage.
 
Perotista said:
Not to defend the practice as that is impossible. But different countries do have different ethics, traditions, customs, history and ways of living. There is no defending or condoning of the practice, it is barbaric. At least under our eyes and values. But mankind has a long history of being very inhumane to other human beings. The reasons vary, but human beings are not a very kind species when it comes to their own.
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Sadly this is so true. And how often is it when our dearth of kindness towards one another is explained away by our "concern" for them and by our belief that our ways are "better" than theirs and that they would be better off doing things our way? Of course, such explanations are often little more than rationalizations directed at those we seek to subdue - to make them somehow feel good that we're being so kind to them.
 
polgara said:
You never hear what happens to the men involved, though. Maybe nothing, since it's obviously the woman's fault, even if she is raped. That does seem a bit unfair to normal people... :eek:
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People who do this stuff isn't normal. That is the point. We got involved in Afghanistan due to 9-11, the geopolitics of it. Not because the Afghans were nice people.
 
EdwinWillers said:
Sadly this is so true. And how often is it when our dearth of kindness towards one another is explained away by our "concern" for them and by our belief that our ways are "better" than theirs and that they would be better off doing things our way? Of course, such explanations are often little more than rationalizations directed at those we seek to subdue - to make them somehow feel good that we're being so kind to them.
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Exactly, the old white man's burden. Civilize the savage. Although this time it is the American Indian that needs civilized, it is a country half way around the world. First the Europeans and their colonization and now us. Our values and ideology is superior to all others.
 
Perotista said:
People who do this stuff isn't normal. That is the point. We got involved in Afghanistan due to 9-11, the geopolitics of it. Not because the Afghans were nice people.
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Karzai is currently having problems staying in office, isn't he? Interesting...
 
MMC said:
What do you think about this? Do you think Obama knew about this LAW before his talks with Karzai recently? Norway wont give them any assistance. Why should we?
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Well, we should if only because we created the mess and propped up our hand picked guy to be their leader. IIRC, Karzai wasn't even living in Afghanistan before we took him over there. Wasn't he living in Connecticut or something?
 
polgara said:
Karzai is currently having problems staying in office, isn't he? Interesting...
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Karzai and his tribe are now the rules, next year he may not be. One must not forget the tribal aspect of Afghanistan in order to understand its politics. But the bottom line is none of the tribes wants to be ruled by another tribe even if it is democracy and people vote. They want to be ruled by the elders and leaders of their own tribe, not other tribes and their leaders. Hence I think this democracy thing will fail there. It won't be too long in the future where things revert back to the way the afghans themselves want it to be. We, the United States and its nation building activities forced another nation to adopt the type of government we thought best for them, not what they thought best for themselves.

True, we think of it as barbaric. But do we have the right to force a people to live under a type of government they don't want to? If we do that, are we any better than the Taliban? The old USSR? Think about it. Doesn't his smack of the old "White man's Burden?"
 
rocket88 said:
Well, we should if only because we created the mess and propped up our hand picked guy to be their leader. IIRC, Karzai wasn't even living in Afghanistan before we took him over there. Wasn't he living in Connecticut or something?
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I am not sure.....although he sure visits Iran a lot. Plus we know the Taliban killed his brother who was running the Opium Trade out of that part of Afghanistan. Was also Karzai's Head of Security. Plus they have killed most henchmen that were given governorships tied to Karzai. So I don't think he will be sticking around long.

My only question was would he sign if the Jirga said no to our deal. The Taliban already let those know who sing. What the penalty is.
 
Perotista said:
Karzai and his tribe are now the rules, next year he may not be. One must not forget the tribal aspect of Afghanistan in order to understand its politics. But the bottom line is none of the tribes wants to be ruled by another tribe even if it is democracy and people vote. They want to be ruled by the elders and leaders of their own tribe, not other tribes and their leaders. Hence I think this democracy thing will fail there. It won't be too long in the future where things revert back to the way the afghans themselves want it to be. We, the United States and its nation building activities forced another nation to adopt the type of government we thought best for them, not what they thought best for themselves.

True, we think of it as barbaric. But do we have the right to force a people to live under a type of government they don't want to? If we do that, are we any better than the Taliban? The old USSR? Think about it. Doesn't his smack of the old "White man's Burden?"
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There's little question they'd be better off with the rule of law, with individual rights of the citizen, with democratic representation, with technology and industry and an actual economy, with a change in their savage customs.


But if they don't want it, screw them. Let them sit up there in their hills and wallow in their barbarity. Leave them to it. Spend not one more American life trying to civilize them. They aren't worth it.

Yes, I'm making an ethnocentric value judgement on them... damn right I am, and without remorse.
 
Goshin said:
There's little question they'd be better off with the rule of law, with individual rights of the citizen, with democratic representation, with technology and industry and an actual economy, with a change in their savage customs.


But if they don't want it, screw them. Let them sit up there in their hills and wallow in their barbarity. Leave them to it. Spend not one more American life trying to civilize them. They aren't worth it.

Yes, I'm making an ethnocentric value judgement on them... damn right I am, and without remorse.
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I am a firm believer that we shouldn't stay someplace where we are not wanted. But I do not condemn them. Who are we to force a type of government on those who do not want it. Are we to take up the "White Man's Burden" to civilize Afghanistan? I agree to the extent we should let them carry on with what they want, we should leave. But I don't think we should sit in judgement of them based solely on our lifestyle, our values, our way of life. The Afghans have never known any of that. If the afghans wants to be ruled by their tribal elders and leaders how ever they choose them, why not let them. The Afghans have been living in the middle ages for quite a long time. It should be their choice whether or not they want to leave it, not ours and we certainly shouldn't be forcing them to leave. If they aren't willing to do so on their own, yes, by all means, let get the heck out and leave them to themselves.
 
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