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Ad hoc rights are the most questionable

No, it’s not immaterial. As unborn are too vaporous population to take account of in censuses, so they are too uncertain personae to be the subjects of personal rights. For one thing is that some courts, even many of them, find occasion to assign singular rights to them, and a very different one that courts in general acknowledge them full personal rights.

I really think you are stretching it here, and assigning greater meaning to a function of government.

Note, for instance, that full personal rights would entail police research of the circumstances in which every natural abortion occurs. Was the pregnant woman negligent? Perhaps, she smoked too much, drank too much, lent herself to excess stress, and so on. If such was the case, she must be charged with negligent homicide. Perhaps, she took due care, but someone else it was who had a dispute with her that provoked the accident. That one would be accused of negligent homicide. Criminal prosecution would become unmanageable. And so forth possibly with other branches of the law.

I get what you're saying, but overall I think this is a bit far-fetched. Already, domestic abuse resulting in miscarriage is treated far more seriously than domestic abuse that doesn't. I don't see normal miscarriage being investigated unless some very unusual circumstances where blatantly evident.
 
I really think you are stretching it here, and assigning greater meaning to a function of government.



I get what you're saying, but overall I think this is a bit far-fetched. Already, domestic abuse resulting in miscarriage is treated far more seriously than domestic abuse that doesn't. I don't see normal miscarriage being investigated unless some very unusual circumstances where blatantly evident.

In the earlier stages of pregnancy, the fetus is unfeasible outside the womb of the mother. The pregnant woman, therefore, is unreservedly answerable for the fetus’ life. In case of forced pregnancy, the woman’s rights are waived and her position is that of a servant to a physically and mentally handicapped master. Should the disabled master die, the servant would be held guilty of negligent homicide whenever she is proven not to have taken due care.
 
I really think you are stretching it here, and assigning greater meaning to a function of government.



I get what you're saying, but overall I think this is a bit far-fetched. Already, domestic abuse resulting in miscarriage is treated far more seriously than domestic abuse that doesn't. I don't see normal miscarriage being investigated unless some very unusual circumstances where blatantly evident.

What are "unusual circumstances"? What is "a reckless act of the woman"? How can you ensure that there will be no more intrusive legislation aimed at pregnant women? What is an "intentional act"? Would that be smoking or consuming alcohol? When a miscarriage occurs, more often than not, doctors don't know why, so why wouldn't women end up being blamed for miscarriages?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/05/us/05utah.html

The sponsor, Representative Carl D. Wimmer, a Republican, said he had removed a key clause that would have allowed prosecution under Utah’s criminal homicide laws for a “reckless act of the woman” that resulted in death to a fetus. Language will remain, he said, that makes a woman’s “intentional” actions, if resulting in the death of her fetus in an illegal abortion, a felony.
 
I never said the Constitution is irrelevant
Of course you did, by dismissing the census and how it relates to fetuses.

and I have shown over and over again where the unborn child is considered a legal entity both on state and federal levels.
You have not. The references to fetal homicide laws have been long debunked.

Your refusal to admit what has been put right in front of you shows a complete disregard for reason.
No disregard at all, I just happen to understand what you presented and take it for what it is.
 
In the earlier stages of pregnancy, the fetus is unfeasible outside the womb of the mother. The pregnant woman, therefore, is unreservedly answerable for the fetus’ life. In case of forced pregnancy, the woman’s rights are waived and her position is that of a servant to a physically and mentally handicapped master. Should the disabled master die, the servant would be held guilty of negligent homicide whenever she is proven not to have taken due care.

What is forced pregnancy, in your mind?
 
What are "unusual circumstances"? What is "a reckless act of the woman"? How can you ensure that there will be no more intrusive legislation aimed at pregnant women? What is an "intentional act"? Would that be smoking or consuming alcohol? When a miscarriage occurs, more often than not, doctors don't know why, so why wouldn't women end up being blamed for miscarriages?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/05/us/05utah.html

The sponsor, Representative Carl D. Wimmer, a Republican, said he had removed a key clause that would have allowed prosecution under Utah’s criminal homicide laws for a “reckless act of the woman” that resulted in death to a fetus. Language will remain, he said, that makes a woman’s “intentional” actions, if resulting in the death of her fetus in an illegal abortion, a felony.

You'd have to take up most of those questions with the people that posed those statements. In my mind, unless they could determine that a woman intentionally attempted to miscarry, and I think that would be very hard to do, I can't see how any of the they things that "may" lead to miscarriage could even be discoverable. Things like smoking and consuming alcohol are obviously bad for an unborn child, however proving that it caused a miscarriage would be impossible.
 
Of course you did, by dismissing the census and how it relates to fetuses.

You can not dismiss something that doesn't exist. There is no link between the census and it's purposes and the rights of the unborn child.

You have not. The references to fetal homicide laws have been long debunked.

Debunked, huh? You mean like the JFK assassination? The lunar landing? The laws and their associated rulings are on the books and easy for anyone to find. The only thing that has been debunked are your absurd conclusions.
 
You'd have to take up most of those questions with the people that posed those statements. In my mind, unless they could determine that a woman intentionally attempted to miscarry, and I think that would be very hard to do, I can't see how any of the they things that "may" lead to miscarriage could even be discoverable. Things like smoking and consuming alcohol are obviously bad for an unborn child, however proving that it caused a miscarriage would be impossible.

Absolutely, that's what I've been saying. Use of misoprostol is also impossible to tell from a naturally occurring miscarriage.
 
Absolutely, that's what I've been saying. Use of misoprostol is also impossible to tell from a naturally occurring miscarriage.

Then what is your fear in allowing the recognition of fetal rights?
 
Then what is your fear in allowing the recognition of fetal rights?

So you think just because a woman can get away with an illegal abortion there is no problem with an illegal abortion? A woman should be entitled to medical supervision for an abortion, and she shouldn't have to resort to illegal means to get one. Make abortion illegal and you will soon see women lose civil rights.
 
So you think just because a woman can get away with an illegal abortion there is no problem with an illegal abortion? A woman should be entitled to medical supervision for an abortion, and she shouldn't have to resort to illegal means to get one. Make abortion illegal and you will soon see women lose civil rights.

So the possible investigation of miscarriages was just one wicked strawman, how disappointing.
 
You can not dismiss something that doesn't exist. There is no link between the census and it's purposes and the rights of the unborn child.
The census has been conducted without fail since 1790. Not once have fetuses been counted as members of society, as citizens, as people or persons. How can non recognized entities have rights?
 
The census has been conducted without fail since 1790. Not once have fetuses been counted as members of society, as citizens, as people or persons. How can non recognized entities have rights?

Let me put it to you this way, why would an entity with no rights be counted in the census? And, were there ever such entities counted in the census?
 
That's rather dramatic isn't it? What of the choices that led to the pregnancy?

You may call it dramatic if you like, but it’s real. How would you call such undesired pregnancy that is carried on to completion by the operation of the law?
 
I don't disagree, and indeed it is my position to argue against abortion not abortion legality. The arguments I make can easily be construed as someone trying to have abortion banned, but the truth is, there is no way to argue against abortion itself without making many of the same arguments.

Most all arguments for abortion completely ignore the death of a human child in favor of individual rights. In my view, this is a classic case of rights coming into conflict with each other. The right to life and the right to privacy. Unfortunately, only one of those is fully recognized at this point. Though I'm only concerned with getting the right to life recognized, and not in outlawing abortion, I recognize that doing so will probably mean an end to legal abortions. This is not my intent, but is an outcome I can live with.

I'm also not in the least bit concerned with the religious aspect of it or what their reasoning is for supporting the pro-life movement. If it's religion that makes them value human life, than more power to them. The pro-life movement can't be disregarded solely based on being supported by religious people however. The religious beliefs are irrelevant. We're talking about human life, and if they're with me, I care not what religion they follow.
wow mac this post has changed my view of you now you are talking. i just can't justify outlawing it completely. there are cases where it IS nessessary and should be legal for those people. imo.
 
Real research takes a bit of time, Grannie.

Sobeck vs. Centennial Insurance Co. 560 A.2d 1309 (N.J. Super. L. 1988)
In a 1988 New Jersey case, the mother of a child who prematurely delivered after she was involved in an automobile accident at approximately 21-weeks gestation sued her insurance company seeking expenses associated with the infant's care, treatment, and hospitalization under personal protection benefits. The preponderance of the evidence supported the conclusion that stress related to the accident caused the premature birth. The child weighed 840 grams at birth and experienced numerous difficulties associated with premature birth, such as respiratory distress, sepsis, intracranial hemorrhage and retinopathy. The court held that the unborn child was an "eligible insured person" within the meaning of the personal injury protection endorsement and was also a "resident of the same household as the named insured" (her mother), and ordered the insurance company to pay the reasonable and necessary expense of $105,387.

p.s. Over half of US states have fetal homicide laws on the books, half of the remainder have prosecuted (and won) cases of double homicide involving an unborn child based on other existing laws. Commonplace? How blatant does a thing have to be before you see it?

the key to this is that the child was born.
 
Pro-life supporters contend for the idea that every fetus is a person, whereby abortion is the killing of a person and therefore a crime. Yet, a fetus is no person in any other respect. Thus, census bureaus do not count fetuses as members of the population. If someone kills a pregnant woman the killer is not charged with two crimes but with only one. Insurances companies do not ensure a fetus’s life to birth, except as fashion models insure their legs or surgeons ensure their hands, that is, as parts of a body. Fetuses are rarely—if ever—buried in cemeteries. A fetus’s rights are only mentioned as reason to ban abortion. Hhmm…
Your so-called “ad hoc rights” are based on the ad hoc hypothesis of “personhood” theory. It is “ad hoc” because it is devoid of supporting evidence, untestable and totally unsubstantiated. It not only is devoid of supporting evidence, but is also contrary to historical truth regarding the term “person”.

The quackery is squeezed out of the Constitution. The primary focus of the 14th amendment was to address the citizenship issue during the contentious time when blacks and black slaves were not considered as citizens of the United States. The focus of the amendment was mainly to overrule the Dred Scott decision, nothing more.

The word “person” was used merely in a pronominal function for the word “human being” the same way “he” is used in place of a male subject. The word “person” as used in the sentences of the Constitution was construed in its ordinary meaning in proper grammatical sense. It was therefore merely a linguistic expression commonly used in our English grammar, nothing more. The context of the Constitution was never ever about abortion, or human reproductive rights or about when an individual human life begins. It certainly wasn’t about defining the term “person” for legal application. That role was appropriately found in Black’s Law dictionary which was established by Henry Campbell Black in 1891. In it, the legal term is defined simply as:
1. A human being.
2. An entity (such as a corporation) that is recognized by law as having the rights and duties of a human being.​

Therefore, for pro-abortion folks to persistently claim that “a fetus has never been regarded as a person protected by our constitution” because one has to be born in order to be considered a “person” is not only a grievous distortion of the truth, but also a down right deception. When lies are repeated often enough by many people, gullible people would fall for it and never seems to be able to get out.

Thus, census bureaus do not count fetuses as members of the population. If someone kills a pregnant woman the killer is not charged with two crimes but with only one. Insurances companies do not ensure a fetus’s life to birth, except as fashion models insure their legs or surgeons ensure their hands, that is, as parts of a body. Fetuses are rarely—if ever—buried in cemeteries. A fetus’s rights are only mentioned as reason to ban abortion. Hhmm…
What kind of logic is this? How does censes bureaus, failure to prosecute a murder crime, insurance coverage and cemetery burial determine whether an entity is or isn’t a “person”?

A corporation is legally a “person”, yet it doesn’t have to be counted by the census bureaus, or for some other corporation to be charged with a murder crime, covered by insurance for its life, or be buried in a cemetery in order to be considered a person.

Before Columbus discovered America, there weren’t any census bureaus let alone the People of the United States to count the native Indians living on the land. Are you telling me that they weren’t persons by any measure? Aborigines in South America, Borneo Island, etc don’t have any census bureaus to count their people, are they then not persons? They certainly don’t have any concept about “insurance” let alone talking about coverage for life. To suggest they didn’t meet your insurance criterion therefore not persons is ridiculous.

Also ridiculous is the notion that failure to charge for crime will determine whether a human being is or isn’t a person. There are countless murders that go unsolved and those criminals who committed the crimes weren’t even charged due to lack of evidence. Some murders simply remained unknown when unreported. Does that make those victims not persons anymore?

More ridiculous is the notion that one has to be buried in a cemetery in order to be counted as a person. Murdered victims whose bodies are never found won’t be buried in the cemeteries. Deceased persons who chose cremation and then have their ashes scattered in the lake, ocean, or woodlands would not have any body to be buried in the cemeteries. The Tibetans who live up in the high Himalayan Mountains don’t bury their dead. They simply feed the corpses to the vultures out in the open.

A person is simply a human being. No matter how hard you try to brutally force your way to deny the humanity of the unborn human life, your torturous twist in every which way isn’t going to change the fact that a prenatal life is a human being just like you and me. A prenatal human being is simply at different developmental stage just like a baby, a toddler, a preschooler, a teenager, etc is at different developmental stage from each other and from me and you.

Intelligence is spare whenever brute force is enough. Intelligence is none existence when brutal deceptions and absurd contortions are needed to compel a lost cause with the expectation that the unborns must be able to think.
 
Your so-called “ad hoc rights” are based on the ad hoc hypothesis of “personhood” theory. It is “ad hoc” because it is devoid of supporting evidence, untestable and totally unsubstantiated. It not only is devoid of supporting evidence, but is also contrary to historical truth regarding the term “person”.

The quackery is squeezed out of the Constitution. The primary focus of the 14th amendment was to address the citizenship issue during the contentious time when blacks and black slaves were not considered as citizens of the United States. The focus of the amendment was mainly to overrule the Dred Scott decision, nothing more.

The word “person” was used merely in a pronominal function for the word “human being” the same way “he” is used in place of a male subject. The word “person” as used in the sentences of the Constitution was construed in its ordinary meaning in proper grammatical sense. It was therefore merely a linguistic expression commonly used in our English grammar, nothing more. The context of the Constitution was never ever about abortion, or human reproductive rights or about when an individual human life begins. It certainly wasn’t about defining the term “person” for legal application. That role was appropriately found in Black’s Law dictionary which was established by Henry Campbell Black in 1891. In it, the legal term is defined simply as:
1. A human being.
2. An entity (such as a corporation) that is recognized by law as having the rights and duties of a human being.​

Therefore, for pro-abortion folks to persistently claim that “a fetus has never been regarded as a person protected by our constitution” because one has to be born in order to be considered a “person” is not only a grievous distortion of the truth, but also a down right deception. When lies are repeated often enough by many people, gullible people would fall for it and never seems to be able to get out.


What kind of logic is this? How does censes bureaus, failure to prosecute a murder crime, insurance coverage and cemetery burial determine whether an entity is or isn’t a “person”?

A corporation is legally a “person”, yet it doesn’t have to be counted by the census bureaus, or for some other corporation to be charged with a murder crime, covered by insurance for its life, or be buried in a cemetery in order to be considered a person.

Before Columbus discovered America, there weren’t any census bureaus let alone the People of the United States to count the native Indians living on the land. Are you telling me that they weren’t persons by any measure? Aborigines in South America, Borneo Island, etc don’t have any census bureaus to count their people, are they then not persons? They certainly don’t have any concept about “insurance” let alone talking about coverage for life. To suggest they didn’t meet your insurance criterion therefore not persons is ridiculous.

Also ridiculous is the notion that failure to charge for crime will determine whether a human being is or isn’t a person. There are countless murders that go unsolved and those criminals who committed the crimes weren’t even charged due to lack of evidence. Some murders simply remained unknown when unreported. Does that make those victims not persons anymore?

More ridiculous is the notion that one has to be buried in a cemetery in order to be counted as a person. Murdered victims whose bodies are never found won’t be buried in the cemeteries. Deceased persons who chose cremation and then have their ashes scattered in the lake, ocean, or woodlands would not have any body to be buried in the cemeteries. The Tibetans who live up in the high Himalayan Mountains don’t bury their dead. They simply feed the corpses to the vultures out in the open.

A person is simply a human being. No matter how hard you try to brutally force your way to deny the humanity of the unborn human life, your torturous twist in every which way isn’t going to change the fact that a prenatal life is a human being just like you and me. A prenatal human being is simply at different developmental stage just like a baby, a toddler, a preschooler, a teenager, etc is at different developmental stage from each other and from me and you.

Intelligence is spare whenever brute force is enough. Intelligence is none existence when brutal deceptions and absurd contortions are needed to compel a lost cause with the expectation that the unborns must be able to think.

“Person,” from the Latin verb per-sonare, in English to over-sound, is someone that can make him or herself be heard by others. Only family heads—that is, male adults endowed with property—were counted as persons by the Romans. After that, other males, women, and racial minorities fought their way into the account. By convention, personal condition is assigned to children and disabled in general. By a juridical fiction, a company is also a “person,” that is, a fictitious person—because it can make itself be heard.

Now, being a “person” is not the natural condition of anyone. It is a juridical status, which has not yet been extended to unborn. Or at least evidence that it has been extended to unborn is tiny. Here we discuss the pros and cons of such hypothetical extension.
 
the key to this is that the child was born.

No, what is key is that incident that caused the damages, and resultant expense occurred before birth.
 
Let me put it to you this way, why would an entity with no rights be counted in the census? And, were there ever such entities counted in the census?

pssst, Prom, where ya at?
 
You may call it dramatic if you like, but it’s real. How would you call such undesired pregnancy that is carried on to completion by the operation of the law?

I would call that life actually. Undesired pregnancy could just as easily be considered inconvenient pregnancy. In what other situations can a human kill another human for his/her own convenience?
 
I would call that life actually. Undesired pregnancy could just as easily be considered inconvenient pregnancy. In what other situations can a human kill another human for his/her own convenience?

Call it life actually, if you wish, and let me call it forced pregnancy, which more precisely depicts the legal situation under an abortion ban.
 
Call it life actually, if you wish, and let me call it forced pregnancy, which more precisely depicts the legal situation under an abortion ban.

In an emotional twist, sure, but you are neglecting to mention that no-one forced her to get pregnant (in most cases)
 
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