Accusations Of Russian Atrocities In Ukraine Prompt Calls For Tougher Sanctions, Prosecutions (1 Viewer)

[Rogue Valley]

Horror, Outrage Grow As Scenes Of Carnage Emerge In Ukraine's Bucha

Ukrainian and world leaders expressed horror and outrage after scenes of civilian deaths and mass executions emerged from the once-quiet town of Bucha following its occupation by Russian forces, raising accusations of atrocities and war crimes committed by Kremlin troops.

www.rferl.org

Civilians executed in Bucha, northweat of Kyiv. Shot in the head at close range.

4.3.22
Russia faced mounting international condemnation amid reports of possible war crimes committed by Russian forces in the Kyiv suburb of Bucha and other parts of Ukraine. European Council President Charles Michel said Moscow will face "further EU sanctions." Michel said he was “shocked by haunting images of atrocities committed by Russian army in Kyiv liberated region.” U.K. Foreign Secretary Liz Truss said in a statement that her government has seen “increasing evidence of appalling acts by the invading forces in towns such as Irpin and Bucha.” Bucha Mayor Anatoly Fedoruk said on April 2 that some 300 local civilians had been shot during the time the town was occupied by Russian forces. About 280 were allegedly dumped in a mass grave, while the rest were left in the streets. Moving and graphic images of the bodies have been distributed on social media. “These are the consequences of Russian occupation,” Fedoruk was quoted as saying.

The New York-based Human Rights Watch (HRW) said on April 3 that it had “documented several cases of Russian military forces committing laws-of-war violations against civilians in occupied areas of Chernihiv, Kharkiv, and Kyiv regions of Ukraine.” In his post on Twitter, Michel said the European Union was assisting Ukraine “in gathering of necessary evidence for pursuit in international courts.” The International Criminal Court had earlier opened an investigation into alleged war crimes committed by Russian forces in Ukraine. The Human Rights Watch report included several allegations of rapes, two cases of summary executions involving seven victims, and other instances of threats and violence against civilians. “The cases we documented amount to unspeakable, deliberate cruelty and violence against Ukrainian civilians,” Hugh Williamson, HRW’s Europe and Central Asia director, was quoted as saying.

The Russians are not honorable soldiers. They are serial killers.

 

[NewfieMom]

I posted an excerpt from an article in today's "The New York Times" about this topic in this thread.

[W:1][W:11][W:368] Russia invades Ukraine: Live Thread

Not confirmed yet by European media. And maintained not with a Russian standard

debatepolitics.com

 

[NewfieMom]

You are right that the uncovering of atrocities has changed the minds of people, experts, on how far the United States can go in helping Ukraine. I have been watching Sunday television shows. There has been a shift in how far people want the US to undergo "nuclear blackmail" by Vladimir Putin. I am hoping it does not bring on nuclear war, yet I cannot bear to see the atrocities. Surely more can be done to stop Russia than has been so far.

 

[Tigerace117]

You are right that the uncovering of atrocities has changed the minds of people, experts, on how far the United States can go in helping Ukraine. I have been watching Sunday television shows. There has been a shift in how far people want the US to undergo "nuclear blackmail" by Vladimir Putin. I am hoping it does not bring on nuclear war, yet I cannot bear to see the atrocities. Surely more can be done to stop Russia than has been so far.

Meanwhile, the US has been actively assisting Saudi Arabia in committing comparable, if not worse, atrocities for years....and nobody gives a shit.

Just another advantage in being white and Christian I suppose.

I’m just fed up with the hypocrisy.

 

[NewfieMom]

Meanwhile, the US has been actively assisting Saudi Arabia in committing comparable, if not worse, atrocities for years....and nobody gives a shit.

Just another advantage in being white and Christian I suppose.

I’m just fed up with the hypocrisy.

Read my posts on Saudi Arabia. There is no country I hate more. The murder of Jamal Khashoggi by MBS, Mr. Bone Saw, probably made me post more than any other event in years.

 

[Tigerace117]

Read my posts on Saudi Arabia. There is no country I hate more. The murder of Jamal Khashoggi by MBS, Mr. Bone Saw, probably made me post more than any other event in years.

And the UAE is just as bad, what with the slave labor issues and their mercenary shock troops. But the whole thing has been seemingly sucked into a black hole. Nobody pays attention, or if they do it’s to fearmonger about Iran.

Meanwhile the killing goes on and on, while the US continues to provide the Saudis with weapons and aid. We rightfully denounce Putin....but our choices made our words hypocritical at best.

 

[NewfieMom]

And the UAE is just as bad, what with the slave labor issues and their mercenary shock troops. But the whole thing has been seemingly sucked into a black hole. Nobody pays attention, or if they do it’s to fearmonger about Iran.

Meanwhile the killing goes on and on, while the US continues to provide the Saudis with weapons and aid. We rightfully denounce Putin....but our choices made our words hypocritical at best.

I do not believe that this thread is the place to hash out all the problems of the world. That does not mean I am in disagreement with you about everything. It means I do not want to discuss all of them here. I post in other fora, as do you.

 

[PeteEU]

Horror, Outrage Grow As Scenes Of Carnage Emerge In Ukraine's Bucha

Ukrainian and world leaders expressed horror and outrage after scenes of civilian deaths and mass executions emerged from the once-quiet town of Bucha following its occupation by Russian forces, raising accusations of atrocities and war crimes committed by Kremlin troops.

www.rferl.org

Civilians executed in Bucha, northweat of Kyiv. Shot in the head at close range.




The Russians are not honorable soldiers. They are serial killers.

My problem is sadly not that it happens in war, but that people think that it is only one side that does this shit. It aint.

Case in point. There was a town that was liberated by Ukrainian forces. The town was taken unopposed on the first day. So, all that damage was done by who?

Are there Russian soldiers that rape and murder civilians? Yep, no doubt. Are there Ukrainian troops that do the same? Of course, they can just blame it on the Russians. War is dirty and ugly.. deal with it.

 

[NewfieMom]

My problem is sadly not that it happens in war, but that people think that it is only one side that does this shit. It aint.

Case in point. There was a town that was liberated by Ukrainian forces. The town was taken unopposed on the first day. So, all that damage was done by who?

Are there Russian soldiers that rape and murder civilians? Yep, no doubt. Are there Ukrainian troops that do the same? Of course, they can just blame it on the Russians. War is dirty and ugly.. deal with it.

I won't "deal with it" in silence no matter who commits atrocities. That is evil. I remember the My Lai massacre.

 

[PeteEU]

I won't "deal with it" in silence no matter who commits atrocities. That is evil. I remember the My Lai massacre.

No one said you should deal with it in silence.

And the My Lai massacre was one of many.

Point is, if one sides does it.. then the other sides it as well.

Case in point.



Early in the war there was a car that was flattened by an armoured personel carrier. Everyone said "those damn Russians", until the report said it happened in Kiev... where there were no Russians. Also the armoured personel carrier lacked any typical Z or V that the Russians have been using. Now do the Ukrainian military have those type of armoured personel carriers? Yep. Was the Ukraine military in control of Kiev at the time? Yep..

This was a clear war crime no?

 

[NewfieMom]

I do not buy your argument that each side in a war commits an equal number of war crimes so that we should just forget all of them. You didn't tell me to deal with war crimes in silence. You told me to "deal with it", which is far more dismissive!

I will not. I will look at objective facts. So far the war his been carried on Ukrainian territory by the Russian military. That meant Ukrainian civilians were at risk but no Russian civilians were. Russian soldiers could commit war crimes against civilians, but Ukrainian troops could not. This was not World War II.

 

[oneworld2]

I do not buy your argument that each side in a war commits an equal number of war crimes so that we should just forget all of them. You didn't tell me to deal with war crimes in silence. You told me to "deal with it", which is far more dismissive!

I will not. I will look at objective facts. So far the war his been carried on Ukrainian territory by the Russian military. That meant Ukrainian civilians were at risk but no Russian civilians were. Russian soldiers could commit war crimes against civilians, but Ukrainian troops could not. This was not World War II.

There are reports that Ukrainian soldiers have committed war crimes against Russian soldiers and against their own civilians but I don 't recall you taking exception to them.

There are no " objective facts" in the current climate, just claims and counter claims with the circumstances not known in many cases.

Are you disappointed that Ukrainian soldiers couldn't get to Russian civilians?

 

[oneworld2]

The Russians are not honorable soldiers. They are serial killers.

Wow, blanket charges against everyone in an entire army.

Maybe we should judge all the US military on those who abused prisoners at Abu Ghraib or the Collateral Murder vid

 

[NewfieMom]

There are reports that Ukrainian soldiers have committed war crimes against Russian soldiers and against their own civilians but I don 't recall you taking exception to them.

There are no " objective facts" in the current climate, just claims and counter claims with the circumstances not known in many cases.

Are you disappointed that Ukrainian soldiers couldn't get to Russian civilians?

Sure, @oneworld2. I know about all the war crimes (allegedly) committed by Ukrainian troops against Russian soldiers. They are widely publicized and I read about them and ignore them deliberately. And, of course I am disappointed that the Ukrainian soldiers could not "get to" the Russian civilians. I assume that, being bloodthirsty as all get out, I wanted these Ukrainian soldiers to commit the very worst atrocities upon the Russian civilians. How did you come to know me so well?

 

[NewfieMom]

Wow, blanket charges against everyone in an entire army.

Maybe we should judge all the US military on those who abused prisoners at Abu Ghraib or the Collateral Murder vid

I protested Abu Ghraib long and loudly as I protest the treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. Did you bother to do so?

 

[oneworld2]

I protested Abu Ghraib long and loudly as I protest the treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. Did you bother to do so?

Absolutely I did. That's the good thing about not feeling a need to be loyal to any state, you are free to look at both sides of the equations without feeling bad about any conclusions you might draw.

AFAIR I don't ever remember reading you make any comments abou Russian national security concerns wrt Ukraine/NATO etc, so you don't strike me as being that balanced on this conflict.

 

[NewfieMom]

Absolutely I did. That's the good thing about not feeling a need to be loyal to any state, you are free to look at both sides of the equations without feeling bad about any conclusions you might draw.

AFAIR I don't ever remember reading you make any comments abou Russian national security concerns wrt Ukraine/NATO etc, so you don't strike me as being that balanced on this conflict.

I do not live to please you. I comment on what I wish. Your insinuations about me have been bizarre, however. Bizarre and stupid given what I have posted about here on Debate Politics.

 

[Chagos]

One objective fact in regard to this atrocity is that Moscow is denying that it ever happened. Claiming "dead" figures seen in the footage are merely Ukrainian actors playing their part in a "fake".

On the long since proven principle that nothing has happened until the Kremlin denies it, that reaction above is proof enough.

And our chief resident apologist for the Kremlin immediately rushing in with the usual apologia and whataboutism helps in that assessment.

 

[oneworld2]

Sure, @oneworld2. I know about all the war crimes (allegedly) committed by Ukrainian troops against Russian soldiers. They are widely publicized and I read about them and ignore them deliberately. And, of course I am disappointed that the Ukrainian soldiers could not "get to" the Russian civilians. I assume that, being bloodthirsty as all get out, I wanted these Ukrainian soldiers to commit the very worst atrocities upon the Russian civilians. How did you come to know me so well?

There is nothing " alleged" about the parading of captured Russian troops for propaganda purposes, the evidence is conclusive.

And what about the accusations made by some civilians in Mariupol about the Ukrainian troops behaviour there?

You seem to doubt things more when the arm bands are blue and yellow.

 

[oneworld2]

I do not live to please you. I comment on what I wish. Your insinuations about me have been bizarre, however. Bizarre and stupid given what I have posted about here on Debate Politics.

It has nothing to do with " pleasing me".

If you don't understand or comment on the legitimate national security concerns of the Russian state, I think it shows a ridiculously obvious bias

 

[Chagos]

I'll certainly agree on Putin's security concerns in that having a country on his doorstep that, despite all its failings, is still demonstrating more democracy than he's even remotely furnishing to his own people, would surely be seen as a threat by any dictator.

 

[oneworld2]

I'll certainly agree on Putin's security concerns in that having a country on his doorstep that, despite all its failings, is still demonstrating more democracy than he's even remotely furnishing to his own people, would surely be seen as a threat by any dictator.

 

[NewfieMom]

Absolutely I did. That's the good thing about not feeling a need to be loyal to any state, you are free to look at both sides of the equations without feeling bad about any conclusions you might draw.

I am loyal to the United States of America, but that does not make me lacking in empathy toward the people of other countries or, indeed, the people of this country who are overlooked. I have a Senegalese nephew -now American-who is starting his fast for Ramadan today. He takes it very seriously, drinking only water from sunrise until dark although he works at a demanding job. I also have a great-nephew, who just became an American cirtizen who was born and raised in Israel where he served in the IDF during the war in Lebanon. My family of origin is rooted here. I try to see different viewpoints although I have a state to which I am loyal.

 

[NewfieMom]

It has nothing to do with " pleasing me".

If you don't understand or comment on the legitimate national security concerns of the Russian state, I think it shows a ridiculously obvious bias

And I think I do not have to comment on Russia. I think that commenting on Russia is "pleasing you". Baloney to that. Russia is a superpower. It doesn't need any comments from me.

 

[oneworld2]

And I think I do not have to comment on Russia. I think that commenting on Russia is "pleasing you". Baloney to that. Russia is a superpower. It doesn't need any comments from me.

You comment on Russia and Russians all the time, you just show no balance. None of that has anything to do with me.