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ACA turning out to be cheaper than expected

And hey, look.... even if the premiums are higher for the elderly on fixed incomes, isn't it time those old farts pay their fair share? And even if the premiums went up 40% in stead of 48%, their old insurance was crap right? Isn't it better to pay more for insurance premiums knowing you won't use many of the items because the government says it's better?

And hey, maybe you pay 40% more for insurance, but rest easy knowing that with a $6000 deductible the chances are you will never see any benefit from your insurance in a given year. Less benefits equals fewer trips to the doctor.. and as we like to say, one less trip to the doctor is one less needlessly amputated appendage.
 
And hey, look.... even if the premiums are higher for the elderly on fixed incomes, isn't it time those old farts pay their fair share? And even if the premiums went up 40% in stead of 48%, their old insurance was crap right? Isn't it better to pay more for insurance premiums knowing you won't use many of the items because the government says it's better?

The biggest reason that the premium prices are rising so fast is that people are having to buy coverage they don't need. A 60 year old couple doesn't need maternity care or pediatric care. the ACA states that all insurance has to have that coverage though. many people who lost their insurance had the coverages but not stupid things like that.
Or what they wanted was to pay their normal doctor bills out of pocket and only be covered from hospital bills.

one anchor from CNN was doing just that. he had a policy that only covered hospital. it ran about 171 dollars a month. now his premium jumped to about 600 a month.

I am a simple solution that works and is working right now in Singapore. the government only spends about 33% of their healthcare bills and the people spend the other 67%.
it requires major overhauls on the tax system to work but it can work. it also fixes social security as well.
 
Classic right wing tactic... deflect and attack..

What deflection? It's common knowledge that the website is a piece-a-crap.

The American people deserve better than this!
 
The biggest reason that the premium prices are rising so fast is that people are having to buy coverage they don't need.
How else is the Obamacare folks going to cover 20-30 million more people? Of course it was going to go up.

I am a simple solution that works and is working right now in Singapore. the government only spends about 33% of their healthcare bills and the people spend the other 67%.
it requires major overhauls on the tax system to work but it can work. it also fixes social security as well.
That might work, but what would be better is allowing insurance companies to compete across state lines, driving costs down while increasing productivity. Productivity itself can be the lever to drive out the fraud and abuse in the entire insurance system. Instead of a $200 asprin, it can go down 10,000% to $2.
 
What deflection? It's common knowledge that the website is a piece-a-crap.

The American people deserve better than this!

Well, to be fair, we voted for this. Democracy, after all, is the theory that the people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.
 
How else is the Obamacare folks going to cover 20-30 million more people? Of course it was going to go up.

That might work, but what would be better is allowing insurance companies to compete across state lines, driving costs down while increasing productivity. Productivity itself can be the lever to drive out the fraud and abuse in the entire insurance system. Instead of a $200 asprin, it can go down 10,000% to $2.

my plan take insurance companies out of the equation except for what is refered to as catastrophic coverage.

what happens is this. the tax code is changed where the top marginal rate is 20%.
Singapore Taxes, Tax Rates, Tax System - 2013 Guide | Singapore Taxation

next what happens is that there is 1 payroll tax. this tax includes funding to your SS, and your new healthcare savings plan.
this rate is set at 20%. you pay 10% and your company pays the other 10%.

10% of that goes into your SS account and the other 10% goes towards your HSA.
now your company has choices. it can contribute to your HSA or help pay for your catastrophic coverage.

on the other side you can claim a 2500 tax credit for your HSA every year for those making less than 500k.
the HSA can be used for any medical need. you can contribut to it yourself along with a 401k.

basically it makes people responsible for their own health.

it is an all cash system. I have done a lot of research into this and a cash based system is actually cheaper.
Sometimes It's Cheaper To Pay Cash Than Use Your Insurance

in fact cash is way cheaper.

much of the high costs in healthcare are due to insurance companies and even hospitals colluding with themselves. you also need to look up the rate book that the hospitals use. they are not standard and each hospital is different. insurance companies aren't getting you the best rate. frankly it is sickening that the price they give you isn't what it should cost.
 
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Well...perhaps you can provide some factual information to support your claims of this debate...as well as data that shows that these changes you cite actually do result in lower health care costs.

It's known that the sorts of payment and delivery reforms that have been launched over the past few years have the potential to slow cost growth.

Pioneering initiatives launched by private payers have shown this:

Study: Mass. Global Payment Approach Lowers Costs, Improves Care
The Alternative Quality Contract, a global payment model put in place by Blue Cross Blue Shield of Massachusetts in 2009, has both curbed costs and improved the quality of care, according to a Harvard Medical School study published today in the journal Health Affairs.

Global payments, a lump sum to cover all the care of a defined group of patients, are viewed by many experts as a cost-effective alternative to the traditional fee-for-service system.

Massachusetts enacted sweeping state health reforms in 2006 considered by many to be a prototype of the 2010 federal health law, and it is now experimenting with equally dramatic measures to rein in health care spending. The AQC is very similar to the Affordable Care Act’s Pioneer Accountable Care Organization contracts – a part of the Medicare shared-savings program.

ACO Saved CalPERS a Total of $37M Over Two Years, Report Finds - California Healthline
An accountable care organization that serves thousands of CalPERS beneficiaries in the Sacramento area saved the agency a total of $37 million in 2010 and 2011, according to a report published Thursday in the journal Health Affairs, the Los Angeles Times reports.

Background

Under the federal health reform law, Medicare officials are awarding contracts to insurers, hospitals and physicians who form ACOs. ACOs seek to coordinate patient care and improve care quality and efficiency. In 2010, Blue Shield of California, Dignity Health and Hill Physicians Medical Group formed an ACO to serve 41,000 CalPERS beneficiaries in the Sacramento area.

And those launched specifically by the ACA have been promising so far:

Obamacare Shows Hospital Savings as Patients Make Gains - Bloomberg
Less than five months before the Affordable Care Act fully kicks in, hospitals are improving care and saving millions of dollars with one of the least touted but potentially most effective provisions of the law. . .

Under the program, hospitals and physician practices take responsibility for tracking and maintaining the health of elderly and disabled patients. If costs rise beyond an agreed upon level, hospitals may become responsible for reimbursing the government. If they cut the cost of care while maintaining quality, hospitals share in the savings. The government expects the savings may be as much as $1.9 billion from 2012 to 2015. Early indications suggest they are starting to add up. . .

Under the U.S. health reform law, Medicare’s accountable-care program requires hospitals and doctors to show they are improving or maintaining the quality of their care before they are paid any bonuses, Blum said. More powerful technology will also help. And unlike in the ’90s, today’s programs are backed by a new law, providing “some surety that the agency will have a commitment to the program,” Blum said.

And in a different, more targeted (but related) experiment launched under the ACA, more than half the participating organizations were able to save money:
Overall, CMS reported that for the more than 669,000 Medicare beneficiaries who belong to Pioneer ACOs, costs to treat them grew by 0.3 percent in 2012. That compares with costs for similar beneficiaries outside the ACO model, which grew by 0.8 percent. CMS said the Pioneers that produced shared savings netted $33 million for the Medicare Trust Funds and that those ACOs together shared in more than $76 million as a result of their coordination of care.

Given the rapid expansion of these care models under the reforms of the past few years, somewhere around 14% of the population is now directly served by one, with the potential for additional spillover effects beyond that. State level versions of this approach (some supported by federal dollars under the ACA) are also getting into the act, with promising early results starting to trickle out of states like Colorado and Oregon just in the past month. We also seen the first first readmissions reductions in years as ACA payment reforms and care coordination programs kicked in.

Back in 2011, reforms to use bundled payments also started to gain traction, based on previous demonstration that successfully used them to slow cost growth:
The Bundled Payments initiative is being launched by the new Center for Medicare and Medicaid Innovation (Innovation Center), which was created by the Affordable Care Act to carry out the critical task of finding new and better ways to provide and pay for health care to a growing population of Medicare and Medicaid beneficiaries. . .

The Bundled Payments initiative is based on research and previous demonstration projects that suggest this approach has tremendous potential. For example, a Medicare heart bypass surgery bundled payment demonstration saved the program $42.3 million, or roughly 10 percent of expected costs, and saved patients $7.9 million in coinsurance while improving care and lowering hospital mortality.

These are real effects that save real money.

But if you want a succinct summation of this argument, just read the new Surowiecki piece: James Surowiecki: Is Health Care Spending Finally Falling? : The New Yorker
 
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:doh You should really stick your head in here more often - both of these claims have been excitedly raised (really? did you sign up for the Obamacare Thanksgiving talking points or something?) and debunked already.

1. The slowdown in the growth of the cost of health spending has been ongoing since the mid 2000's. Unless you want to credit Medicare Part D (and you can make a small argument in its favor), you can't really identify a major policy responsible.

My OP didn't assign credit so I'm not sure what you think you've "debunked." The reality is that health care spending growth and health price inflation have hit and remained near historic lows (something not anticipated in 2009 when the CBO was scoring the ACA) and that's dragged down the price tag for the law. That was the point--I even tried to underscore it by including it in the thread title ("ACA turning out cheaper than expected.")

It was supposed to cost a certain amount. We now know it will cost less than that (the entire U.S. health sector will cost less than was expected for that matter). Full stop.


2. Coming in cheaper than anticipated increases that are still net increases does not represent "cost savings".

The premise of the thread is that the cost of the ACA is coming in cheaper than anticipated. Am I to take it that you at least accept that premise?

The fact that we've moved so quickly into who should (and shouldn't) get credit suggests to me that folks understand, perhaps begrudgingly, that this is good news.
 
I wonder if Obama has a hoard of intellectually dishonest bots hitting the forums and political sites every morning for the sole purpose of spreading more lies ?

It seems that we've unmasked at least one instance of such, here. I'm sure there are many more.
 
This is something that's been fairly obvious since it became known that:

1) hundreds of billions of dollars have melted off of the price tags of Medicare and Medicaid due to the economy-wide sustained slowdown in health care spending growth, and
2) private insurance premiums (and thus federal subsidies to support their purchase) for next year came in almost 20% cheaper than anticipated in the assumptions used to calculate the cost of the law.

But it's nice that someone finally noticed and pointed it out.

Cost of Health Care Law Is Seen as Decreasing


The law basically spends money on two things: public insurance and subsidies for private insurance. Both are turning out to be cheaper than the bean counters thought they would be when the law was devised four years ago, so the price tag is turning out to be lower than anyone guessed.

""....We repeat: there is nothing wrong with your television set. You are about to participate in a great adventure. You are about to experience the awe and mystery which reaches from the inner mind to – The Outer Limits....."" Credits to ABC network.
 
The biggest reason that the premium prices are rising so fast is that people are having to buy coverage they don't need. A 60 year old couple doesn't need maternity care or pediatric care. the ACA states that all insurance has to have that coverage though. many people who lost their insurance had the coverages but not stupid things like that.
Or what they wanted was to pay their normal doctor bills out of pocket and only be covered from hospital bills.

one anchor from CNN was doing just that. he had a policy that only covered hospital. it ran about 171 dollars a month. now his premium jumped to about 600 a month.

I am a simple solution that works and is working right now in Singapore. the government only spends about 33% of their healthcare bills and the people spend the other 67%.
it requires major overhauls on the tax system to work but it can work. it also fixes social security as well.

How much is a doctors office visit in Singapore? Retail price please.
 
The biggest reason that the premium prices are rising so fast is that people are having to buy coverage they don't need. A 60 year old couple doesn't need maternity care or pediatric care.

I'm far from an expert on the US current Health System and all of the changes that will eventuate under ACA but that's a really good point. I live in a Country that has a working UHS system and i also have my own private cover that costs me $30 per week which provides more than adequate coverage. We can choose the level of coverage we want depending on our circumstances. (I'm young, i don't need hip replacement coverage, just to use one example.)

Personally i sympathise with both sides of the debate and really hope that a reasonable solution is found for all parties. It's not like what they have currently is working well or anything special. At the end of the day, it's really not much good having some of the best health care facilities and Doctors in the world (which the US do), if people don't have access to it in a timely and afforable manner. What i'm getting from reading many of our posters here is that Obamacare really doesn't go anywhere close enough to correcting the existing problems.
 
I would disagree with that. There's a growing acknowledgement that structural changes in the health care system are playing some role in the staying power of the slowdown (though obviously there's huge debate right now as to how much can be attributed to that). And the ACA is spurring some of those and changing behavior on the provider side to encourage--not to mention pay for--more value on the health care delivery side.

The ACA hasn't "spurred" anything but a ongoing stagnation of our economy.

There in't even a substantial number of people who've signed on yet, unless you want to count all of the new medicare recipients. Your quoting projections as objective fact. Hell initially the ACA was supposed to be "deficit neutral.

Turns out, allot of the CBO projections that were used to sell this monstrosity were just garbage in and garbage out.

Also, who's part of the group that's first GROWING and second, that "acknowledges that the spending slowdown is due to structure changes" ? Specifically, besides you that is.

The "slowdown" in cost will be from a drop in medical billing due to the fact that millions of Americans have just been presented with premiums they can no longer afford and simply chose to go uninsured and pay their new tax.

The ACA will only "work" if a substantial amount young healthy Americans buy insurance policies. That way they can subsidize the older and sicker generation, well that and the fact that now MEN HAVE TO HAVE MATERNITY COVERAGE.:roll:

If the younger healthier generation doesn't participate ( you honestly think they have the money in Obama's economy ? Half of them cant find work when they finally emerge from College with a degree ), that extra cost is then shifted over to the people that are buying coverage in the form of higher premiums and higher deductibles.

The middle class. The ACA doesn't effect the poor or the rich. It's financed by a shrinking populace of middle class who are already struggling to make ends meet.
 
well i did a search and really the prices are all over the place depending on where you are at. they range from 12 bucks to 150.

what is interesting is that there are doctors in the US switching to an all cash system. they do not take insurance. it is called direct pay.
typical is 10 dollars a month per kid, 50 for an adult and 90 for elderly. that includes all services offered by the doctor. everything from checkup to stitches.

blood work they can get done for 9 dollars compared to 50 charged by insurance companies.

it amazes me the mark ups on basic services that insurance companies charge.
if you read the article for instance.

a hospital will advertise a CT for 4000 dollars, insurance to the rescue and it will only cost you 2k wow what a deal it costs you 2k less.
wait though if you get it with cash 250 dollars. huh? why is there almost a 1000% markup on that? a lot of it is due to the supposed
price negotiation from the hospital with the insurance compay.

they are not giving you a deal.
 
Of course it matters, but that aint the subject of this thread. Plus it has been fixed.. get over it.



LOL the lack of facts in this comment is mindboggling. There are plenty of people who have saved money via the ACA, and the website did not cost a "gazillion" dollars... more right wing lies.

Stop living in the dark ages and with your head in the ground and join us in the real world.

Well, here in the real world, the website isn't fixed. :lamo
 
A few responses to the points made by several different posters.

1. the slowdown in the cost of care of medicare and Medicaid. The slowdown is largely the result of declining reimbursement for providers. These declining reimbursements have been going on since 1999 and accelerated by 2005. In 2010, the democrats reversed the trend a little bit, but now we are again slowly declining reimbursement for providers. Its not due to the ACA and its not due to the economy.. since Medicare and Medicaid recipients aren't that effected by the economy. It can be difficult to quantify, because some aspects of reimbursement are increasing.. say for pharmaceuticals (after Medicare Part D started) but in an effort to be "budget neutral" they have cut reimbursement to other providers.
The result of the decrease in reimbursement has led to an overall decrease in quality care. You are much less likely to see an actual physician, but to see an alternative care provider. You are much less likely to get the amount of time per patient that you need. You are much less likely to be able to order the equipment that patients need and to get it when they need it. I have seen the overall care decrease from what it was just 10 years ago.
Certainly my reimbursement per code has dropped significantly. I get less now in 2013 than I got in 2005, yet my costs have gone up.

2. The drop in private costs for healthcare is largely due to the economy.. and has little to do with the ACA because despite the folks claiming the ACA has been a success and those claiming the ACA has been a complete disaster, the ACA really hasn't rolled out yet.

3.
a hospital will advertise a CT for 4000 dollars, insurance to the rescue and it will only cost you 2k wow what a deal it costs you 2k less.
wait though if you get it with cash 250 dollars. huh? why is there almost a 1000% markup on that? a lot of it is due to the supposed
price negotiation from the hospital with the insurance compay.

One.. I would be real surprised that the cost was 250 cash. The hospital would be leaving itself into trouble by making that much of a decrease. However, the reason that some things cost more is because it makes up for other things that are necessary BUT get reimbursed less. There is almost no rhyme or reason why insurance companies establish the allowed amounts that they do. In my practice, some of the things that are the most difficult, require the most time, and are the most cost for me.. have very low allowables.. where something that I could do with only general supervision is reimbursed much higher.
 
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