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abortion is self-defense

Any pregnancy can turn on a dime. No matter how "low risk".
Yep. I think that most men that are pro-life are men. I also think that most have no idea the dangers involved in pregnancy or child-birth. I also don't think that the vast majority have even seen a child-birth. I would also say that I doubt that most are fathers... or that they consider what it is like to be a woman... lack of empathy, and all that.
 
It's been known to happen.

I am prepared for what may happen. If I get preggers, I'll abort. It is not my problem if some people don't like that.



It's been known to happen too that people get struck by lightning!
Or, hit by a car! How come you guys aren't getting all anal about cars still around?

You can choke too! Your rationale is absurd!

Lol. If you're prepared - then, you worry too much. :)
Worry about drivers who shouldn't be driving!
It's so likely to get maimed or die getting hit by them - so why not spend your time and energy fighting for something like that? :LOL:


Like I said, there's nothing that says you have to rely on only one method of contraception.


Look at Covid - how many "contraceptions" are required to make it really safe for you?
Safe distancing, frequent washing of hands, wearing masks - you can even take it farther than that!
 
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It’s perfectly relevant. Abortion is all about body autonomy. It’s interesting you want you women to have less body autonomy than corpses have.


The analogy to blood-donation is not relevant.

It's a stupid analogy.
 
I agree, pro-choice posts have one thing in common: they base their answers on actual facts.

See? This is a good example. :ROFLMAO:
 
I believe Canadian health insurance covers all the highly effective, but expensive, women's contraceptives such as hormonal injections and implants, and the IUD implantation. These all have a failure rate lower than 3%, most have a failure rate of .1%. Health insurance for low income workers if they have it, does not cover any of those and may not even cover the pill.

75% or the women that end up with unplanned and unwanted pregnancies are the working poor and those living at or below the poverty line. The tragedy of abortion is that these women were using protection, but the protection had a very high risk of failure. In the US the problem is created by conservatives who refuse to support health insurance programs that provide coverage for effective women's contraceptives.

.....yada-yada-yada.

If you're human - and, I think you are -


FACT:

HETEROSEXUAL SEX.......................... CAN RESULT IN PREGNANCY.




That's all you need to drum in your pretty head.
 
No, because there are other precautions she can reasonably take to prevent them from getting near her, from infecting her. That is not the case for that woman who is pregnant once she is pregnant. Plus, whether you agree or not, the person who may infect her is unknown to her and an actual person, not a fetus or other lifeform trying to live off of her body. She does have a right to try to kill the coronavirus though.

There are precautions women can take to avoid pregnancy too.

If the fetus isn't an actual human being, then what is the point of a self-defense claim? You needn't claim self-defense against a pathogen. This is putting the cart before the horse.
 
It's been known to happen too that people get struck by lightning!
Or, hit by a car! How come you guys aren't getting all anal about cars still around?

You can choke too! Your rationale is absurd!

Lol. If you're prepared - then, you worry too much. :)
Worry about drivers who shouldn't be driving!
It's so likely to get maimed or die getting hit by them - so why not spend your time and energy fighting for something like that? :LOL:


Like I said, there's nothing that says you have to rely on only one method of contraception.


Look at Covid - how many "contraceptions" are required to make it really safe for you?
Safe distancing, frequent washing of hands, wearing masks - you can even take it farther than that!

Last I checked, this is an abortion debate forum, not a car debate forum....
 
I don't care about anybody's moral argument when it comes to a woman controlling her own body. Not at all.

But you've already stated that you only support her having control over her own body "prior to viability". Presumably after viability you support the state taking control over her body.

My apologies if I am misunderstanding your position.
 
It's not self-defense.
Self-defense is................................................. USING CONTRACEPTION!


The woman CREATED the human being in her womb. She permitted a man to assist in this creation!
That she doesn't want to have this baby doesn't justify murder.

She has another option - give him up for adoption.
She doesn't want to inconvenience herself for 9 months? Too darn bad.
She doesn't want to take the risks or anything unpleasant involved in child-bearing? Cry me a river.
She should've thought about that before having unprotected sex.

She's lucky if she didn't get AIDS, or any std too!
If unwanted pregnancy didn't scare her enough to take precaution - STDs should! Silly cow.


She shouldn't have created him in the first place. Moron woman.
The least intelligent post today!
 
.....yada-yada-yada. If you're human - and, I think you are - FACT: HETEROSEXUAL SEX.......................... CAN RESULT IN PREGNANCY. That's all you need to drum in your pretty head.
You seem to think all women are stupid ditzes unaware of how to use birth control. The fact is that only middle class and wealthy American women have access to the most effective birth control and the abortion rate of these women is very low. American conservatives have killed all bills providing subsidies that allow poor women to get effective contraceptives. Perhaps you could try and get your rather unattractive anti-women head around that fact.
 
The analogy to blood-donation is not relevant.

It's a stupid analogy.

Sure it is. If the government can’t force a person to give blood against their will to save another person’s life, what makes you think a government can force a woman to let another person use considerably more of her body than blood to save another person?
 
But you've already stated that you only support her having control over her own body "prior to viability". Presumably after viability you support the state taking control over her body.

My apologies if I am misunderstanding your position.
I only support abortion prior to viability. I support a woman having control over her body no matter what.
 
There are precautions women can take to avoid pregnancy too.

If the fetus isn't an actual human being, then what is the point of a self-defense claim? You needn't claim self-defense against a pathogen. This is putting the cart before the horse.
Once they are pregnant though, they have a right to fight for their life. Just as your mother would have a right to fight the invader of her body, the coronavirus. And yes, you can claim self defense against a pathogen too. The invader, no matter what the invader is, is still what is putting the person's life in danger.

Your comparison is closer to asking if the woman who is afraid of being raped could claim self defense for killing any man who came near her because the man might harm her. The fetus didn't come near the woman, but rather started in her, but then is putting her at risk from being in her not simply near her, as is the case with your failed analogy.
 
Once they are pregnant though, they have a right to fight for their life. Just as your mother would have a right to fight the invader of her body, the coronavirus. And yes, you can claim self defense against a pathogen too. The invader, no matter what the invader is, is still what is putting the person's life in danger.

Your comparison is closer to asking if the woman who is afraid of being raped could claim self defense for killing any man who came near her because the man might harm her. The fetus didn't come near the woman, but rather started in her, but then is putting her at risk from being in her not simply near her, as is the case with your failed analogy.

No one gets dragged to court to answer for why they killed a pathogen.

If the fetus isn't a human being then there's no point in claiming self-defense. Self-defense implies that you killed another human being for justifiable reasons.
 
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Sure it is. If the government can’t force a person to give blood against their will to save another person’s life, what makes you think a government can force a woman to let another person use considerably more of her body than blood to save another person?

The government can do that. Do you think a government which can compel people to fight and die in wars would for some reason refrain from compelled blood transfusions?
 
No one gets dragged to court to answer for why they killed a pathogen.

If the fetus isn't a human being then there's no point in claiming self-defense. It implies that you killed another human being for justifiable reasons.
Nor do they get dragged to court for why they killed a fetus or someone in legitimate self defense because you don't get charged for defending your life.

If abortion was considered homicide, as some are trying to make it, then legally they can claim self defense. Since the assault on their body does not take place until after they are pregnant, then taking action to save their life, to decide how much risk they are willing to take when it comes to potential harm or death that ends a pregnancy (the source of the potential harm would involve self defense. Nowhere does the law say that self defense is only against human beings. Do you think someone can't claim self defense for killing say an endangered animal that is attacking them?

 
The government can do that. Do you think a government which can compel people to fight and die in wars would for some reason refrain from compelled blood transfusions?
No, they can't (except ironically when it comes to those in the military at that time who are in a position, place where the blood transfusion is necessary for military operations of some time, which I know because I saw it happen on the ship and even that can be challenged later). The government cannot compel me, as a current private citizen to donate bone marrow or blood to another citizen.
 
Nor do they get dragged to court for why they killed a fetus or someone in legitimate self defense because you don't get charged for defending your life.

If abortion was considered homicide, as some are trying to make it, then legally they can claim self defense. Since the assault on their body does not take place until after they are pregnant, then taking action to save their life, to decide how much risk they are willing to take when it comes to potential harm or death that ends a pregnancy (the source of the potential harm would involve self defense. Nowhere does the law say that self defense is only against human beings. Do you think someone can't claim self defense for killing say an endangered animal that is attacking them?


Do you think the fetus is a human being?
 
Do you think the fetus is a human being?
Do you think a bear is a human being?

Being a human being doesn't mean anything to this conversation or even rights of a fetus. A fetus is not a legal person, not a citizen. Rights begin at birth because until that time, the offspring of the mother is still inside the mother, a literal part of the mother. The fetus does not even count as a person (note, only you are bringing up "human being" here) on the census.
 
No, they can't (except ironically when it comes to those in the military at that time who are in a position, place where the blood transfusion is necessary for military operations of some time, which I know because I saw it happen on the ship and even that can be challenged later). The government cannot compel me, as a current private citizen to donate bone marrow or blood to another citizen.

Can they compel you to give them your money? Or to stay indoors when instructed? Or to attend jury duty when instructed? Or to go to war and risk your life?

And yet they can't compel you to donate blood?

That's quite confusing.
 
Do you think a bear is a human being?

Being a human being doesn't mean anything to this conversation or even rights of a fetus. A fetus is not a legal person, not a citizen. Rights begin at birth because until that time, the offspring of the mother is still inside the mother, a literal part of the mother. The fetus does not even count as a person (note, only you are bringing up "human being" here) on the census.

A bear is not a human being. I answered your question, so please answer mine. If it's irrelevant as you say then there's nothing to fear by an honest answer.
 
A bear is not a human being. I answered your question, so please answer mine. If it's irrelevant as you say then there's nothing to fear by an honest answer.
Because it is irrelevant. All that matters to my argument is whether a person can claim self defense against a fetus, as they could other living things (pretty sure no one claimed otherwise).

For your reference though, I have never claimed that a fetus is not a human being. I am claiming that a fetus is not a legal person, does not have rights.
 
Because it is irrelevant. All that matters to my argument is whether a person can claim self defense against a fetus, as they could other living things (pretty sure no one claimed otherwise).

For your reference though, I have never claimed that a fetus is not a human being. I am claiming that a fetus is not a legal person, does not have rights.

Alright. So it's okay with you to kill innocent human beings if they're not legally persons?
 
Alright. So it's okay with you to kill innocent human beings if they're not legally persons?
It's okay to kill a human being who is threatening your life. Their being "innocent" is not at all related to the threat they still pose to you. That is an attempt at presenting a moral argument or an appeal to emotion. It isn't an honest argument at all. It is a poster trying to manipulate others by using their "feelings" to make them feel guilty.

What other human beings do you believe are not legally persons though?
 
It's okay to kill a human being who is threatening your life. Their being "innocent" is not at all related to the threat they still pose to you. That is an attempt at presenting a moral argument or an appeal to emotion. It isn't an honest argument at all. It is a poster trying to manipulate others by using their "feelings" to make them feel guilty.

What other human beings do you believe are not legally persons though?

It's not emotional. I'm pointing out that the legality of it is irrelevant. The whole debate is whether abortion should be legal. If a law were passed tomorrow which said black people were no longer legally persons, I don't think you'd defend the killing of blacks.

Anyway, returning to the self-defense claim:

Claims of self-defense must demonstrate that there was a threat to you sufficient to justify force. And for the use of lethal force, you have to demonstrate a lethal threat. The threat pregnancy poses to pregnant women can hardly be said to be categorically lethal. As stated earlier, about 700 American women die each year of pregnancy complications, and there are somewhere between 4 and 6 million pregnancies a year. Or perhaps to use a more useful figure, about 3.7 million births in 2019. That calculates to about a 0.019% chance of death.

I don't think a reasonable person would consider that a lethal threat, at least not in the abstract. If a 0.019% chance of death is a lethal threat, then there's no limit to what can be described as such, and therefore no limit to who you can kill under the justification of "self-defense."
 
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