Abortion is equal to Stand Your Ground[344]

[Summerwind]

You can start with the basic fact that SYG law absolutely relies upon there being a human [being] attacker. In your opinion the unborn isn't a human [being].

Yes, I've already stated that I am in this thread looking at a ZEF through the eyes of those that think it's a human being. If it is a human being, it has invaded the space a woman occupies, and she has a right to feel that it will cause her legitimate harm, so she can stand her ground and kill it.

 

[clownboy]

Yes, I've already stated that I am in this thread looking at a ZEF through the eyes of those that think it's a human being. If it is a human being, it has invaded the space a woman occupies, and she has a right to feel that it will cause her legitimate harm, so she can stand her ground and kill it.

Not the way the law works, but hey, keep defending the busted analogy til you're blue in the face. What is achieved?

 

[Summerwind]

Not the way the law works, but hey, keep defending the busted analogy til you're blue in the face. What is achieved?

Of course it doesn't, but it should. And as usual with those that can't, you haven't provided the detail list as to how SYG is different than a worman's right to abort, for those that believe a ZEF is a human being.

 

[RAMOSS]

Then she isn't doing enough sit-ups.

That would be squat thrusts.

 

[Thrilla]

No they are not. There is no imminent threat necessary in SYG.

incorrect.

SYG laws extend self defense laws to any place you have a right to be .. by removing the duty to retreat.

that's it, that's all.

 

[Thrilla]

The fetus does not have to calculate.

The placenta shuts down part of the woman's immune system and keeps it shut down during the entire pregnancy. This is, in fact, the reason so many pregnant women undergo morning sickness - the body has to attempt to protect the woman from viruses and infections in other ways because of the partial shutdown.

The placenta removes some oxygen from the woman's bloodstream for transfer to the embryo/fetus. The more this occurs, the more liable the woman is to shortness of breath, because she is being deprived of the normal amount of oxygen for her own well-being as this oxygen is transferred out of her own circulation.

The placenta removes some nutrients from the woman's bloodstream for transfer to the embryo/fetus. This can result in such things as loosening of teeth because of the placenta's leeching too much calcium that would otherwise be used to maintain the health of her body.

The general pressure on the woman's physiological systems from these and other abnormalities increase her blood pressure, often all through the pregnancy or at least from the fetal stage.

Since the bulk of the placenta is developed from part of the blastocyst and has the DNA of the blastocyst/embryo and not the woman, and since its development and even the speed of its development are controlled by specific chromosomes in the DNA of the blastocyst/embryo and not the woman, one can will little difficulty argue that it is the blastocyst/embryo/fetus which is causing all of the above.

If you did all of that to my body, I would certainly be reasonable in concluding that you are doing me harm, whether you intended to do me harm or not.
The placenta releases embryonic/fetal toxic waste into the woman's blood all during the entire pregnancy.

self defense laws do not apply to your fetus... no matter how many words you write.

i'm sorry that's so hard to understand, but it's true.

 

[Thrilla]

Robbery is. Aggravated robbery is. The blastocyst/embryo takes bodily tissue without asking and uses it to make a placenta which it uses to shut down part of the defense system of the body and rechannel the bloodstream and then transfer nutrients and oxygen out of the bloodstream for its own purposes to the detriment of the health of the owner of the body. Given that the placenta is used as a chemical weapon that harms the body of the owner, one could even make a case for aggravated robbery.

omg... what idiocy is this i'm reading....

 

[JayDubya]

Wish my mother had chosen it, even. So now what. I'm evil and hatefilled.... okay. According to some that's a fact.

You are full of hate, and that is a fact.

What is also a fact is that you clearly do not believe that first sentence, so don't expect anyone else to.

 

[SheWolf]

Actually, my doctor went over the risks of me having children and trying to carry to term. I would be a high risk pregnancy, and because of the surgery I recently had, I could rip and tear on the inside and potentially bleed to death. I could die if that happened, and would most definitely miscarry.

My doctor talked to me of other risks, and I am about 90% leaning to never trying to have a biological child because of all the risks... so yeah, if for some reason I got pregnant from rape or birth control failure, I would be concerned for my health and safety from the onset of finding out I was pregnant.

Can it be true? Have you finally come to your senses? :shock:


Oh, we're back to denying reality again. Well, "bless your heart."



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. *achem*

Um. No.

Was the fetus "coming right for you?" :roll:



Because self-inflicted harm doesn't justify killing someone else.

The kid is never responsible for any harm of pregnancy - the parents are. Duh.

 

[SheWolf]

A fetus isn't threatening the mother.

What if she has reasonable concern that it could be or is threatening the mother?

Read my post above. I have had this discussion with my doctor.

 

[JayDubya]

Actually, my doctor went over the risks of me having children and trying to carry to term. I would be a high risk pregnancy, and because of the surgery I recently had, I could rip and tear on the inside and potentially bleed to death. I could die if that happened, and would most definitely miscarry.

My doctor talked to me of other risks, and I am about 90% leaning to never trying to have a biological child because of all the risks... so yeah, if for some reason I got pregnant from rape or birth control failure, I would be concerned for my health and safety from the onset of finding out I was pregnant.

Okay. Well, that sucks, sympathies with all that.

I don't think it's really a counterpoint to anything I said and you quoted, but hey.

 

[SheWolf]

Some women are stoned to death and executed for being pregnant outside of marriage. I know you'll probably say... yeah, but that's not America, doesn't count, but my point is that I can't blame all women from trying to self abort and injuring themselves. You also have women with mental health issues and severe depression, and it's a concern for the to be pregnant and experience prenatal depression and suicidal thoughts as a result of the pregnancy. Not all pregnancies are joyous celebrations for women, and that's just the tragic fact.

A pregnant woman's health should be of equal concern as the unborn child's. If she doesn't take care of herself and mental health, the baby won't be healthy nor will it have a happy childhood. Much research suggests that severely depressed women not being treated during pregnancy may have higher risk of having a child with schizophrenia and learning disabilities, so I don't like to see the concerns, fears, and difficulties of pregnant women being dismissed...

If you are looking out for pregnant women, you are looking out for the health of the unborn baby.

There is no reasonable, believable fear of harm from another human being - in a pregnancy, the mother and the father have caused any "harm." As usual, you pro-aborts rely on hyperbole.



No, but he attacked a guy for being a jerk and following him and asking him mean questions. You have a right to walk around in public and you can be a jerk if you want to and you can use free speech to ask mean questions. You don't have a right to punch someone else in aggression, nor to shove their head into concrete. If you do that, you might get shot (shock).


A pregnancy does not involve any sort of victimhood. A typical pregnancy involves zero harm. Any complications of pregnancy that cause meaningful harm are not caused by the kid.

 

[clownboy]

Actually, my doctor went over the risks of me having children and trying to carry to term. I would be a high risk pregnancy, and because of the surgery I recently had, I could rip and tear on the inside and potentially bleed to death. I could die if that happened, and would most definitely miscarry.

My doctor talked to me of other risks, and I am about 90% leaning to never trying to have a biological child because of all the risks... so yeah, if for some reason I got pregnant from rape or birth control failure, I would be concerned for my health and safety from the onset of finding out I was pregnant.

Sorry to hear that SheWolf, You best option appears to be storing some eggs and tying off the tubes thereafter. Still you should use birth control, but then the chances of failure and a life threatening situation would be greatly decreased.

 

[SheWolf]

Okay. Well, that sucks, sympathies with all that.

I don't think it's really a counterpoint to anything I said and you quoted, but hey.

Well, if I became pregnant from birth control failure or rape, I feel I wouldn't be a murderer if I decided abortion was right to avoid the risks my doctor discussed with me. I would be having an abortion to protect my health and possible life.

 

[SheWolf]

Sorry to hear that SheWolf, You best option appears to be storing some eggs and tying off the tubes thereafter. Still you should use birth control, but then the chances of failure and a life threatening situation would be greatly decreased.

I am not married yet, so I am seeing what happens. My sister said she would try to help me if she can, but I am not sure what she can do. I am not really sure she wants to be surrogate. :shrug:

I think I will be OK no matter what. If I can't have kids, I will enjoy everything else in life I possibly can...

 

[JayDubya]

Some women are stoned to death and executed for being pregnant outside of marriage. I know you'll probably say... yeah, but that's not America, doesn't count, but my point is that I can't blame all women from trying to self abort and injuring themselves.

Threats from someone else does not justify killing another human being.

You also have women with mental health issues and severe depression, and it's a concern for the to be pregnant and experience prenatal depression and suicidal thoughts as a result of the pregnancy. Not all pregnancies are joyous celebrations for women, and that's just the tragic fact.

Being sad does not justify killing another human being.

If you are looking out for pregnant women, you are looking out for the health of the unborn baby.

True enough. But thus far in this post you've written, you're trying to justify not looking out for the health of the kid at all, but killing the kid.

 

[Lursa]

No, you're not evil - I'm just pleased that we have another poster on record who believes that there should be no limit on abortions because I've been told several times that nobody, I mean NOBODY, on DP has ever said they support abortion up to and including just before birth. Now I can always point out that Summerwind supports that position and you'll back me up on that.

I dont 'support it' but I dont believe in any legislation to prevent it either because it is pointless. It is just as dangerous and painful, if not more, to try to perform an abortion at that point.

I've asked in the past for anyone to provide any cases where that has been done or requested (legally)....there were none provided.

It's legal in CA.....how many cases do you see?

I see no reason for a law that has no purpose...a useless 'feel-good' law that once more, infringes on a woman's right to choose. If anything, it would be cracking a door open for more restrictions which of course I'm against.

 

[JayDubya]

Well, if I became pregnant from birth control failure or rape, I feel I wouldn't be a murderer

You'd be technically correct if only because the aggressive violence you would be inflicting upon your kid would be legal.

It would still be despicable, and it should be criminalized as murder.

In the case of birth control failure, that does not absolve you from responsibility for your own actions - you and your partner would still be the ones responsible for any harm of pregnancy, not the kid.

In the other case, well, the harm wouldn't be caused by you at all, but then, it also STILL wouldn't be caused by the kid.

 

[Lursa]

So what? It's human rights and not human being rights.

There are no legitimate human rights organizations that consider abortion a human rights issue....except in support along with women's reproductive rights.

So it's not actually a human rights issue either.

 

[JayDubya]

There are no legitimate human rights organizations that consider abortion a human rights issue....except in support along with women's reproductive rights.

Your premise is bull****. If they support killing innocent human beings, then they are not a "legitimate human rights organization," as they are dedicated in their opposition to the human right to life.

 

[Summerwind]

No, you're not evil - I'm just pleased that we have another poster on record who believes that there should be no limit on abortions because I've been told several times that nobody, I mean NOBODY, on DP has ever said they support abortion up to and including just before birth. Now I can always point out that Summerwind supports that position and you'll back me up on that.

Just to be clear, I support a woman's right as you say. I personally however never had an abortion (though I knowingly didn't do anything to stop a miscarriage in process though the doctor said 9 month of being bedridden would assure a birth), and never would have an abortion. That's my choice. I fight hard and ruthlessly to protect the rights of women evenso. I have driven for friends that had abortions and wouldn't have wanted anyone to interfere in their choices, or any other woman's.

 

[JayDubya]

I have driven for friends that had abortions

If that's true, well then you were right when you called yourself evil, as you are party to multiple homicides.

 

[choiceone]

self defense laws do not apply to your fetus... no matter how many words you write.

i'm sorry that's so hard to understand, but it's true.

Why do you think this?

 

[CanadaJohn]

Just to be clear, I support a woman's right as you say. I personally however never had an abortion (though I knowingly didn't do anything to stop a miscarriage in process though the doctor said 9 month of being bedridden would assure a birth), and never would have an abortion. That's my choice. I fight hard and ruthlessly to protect the rights of women evenso. I have driven for friends that had abortions and wouldn't have wanted anyone to interfere in their choices, or any other woman's.

That's fine - I too am supportive of individuals making their own choices in life - that doesn't mean, however, that I readily support the choices made or the reasons for making those choices.

 

[molten_dragon]

Let's for just one moment agree that a fetus is a human being, which it isn't, but in order to make my point I will accede that point to anyone who wants to claim it. That being said, isn't abortion simply "stand your ground" for women. I've noticed that the most vocal anti-choicers seem to also be pro-stand-your-ground. And correct me if I'm wrong, but stand your ground laws say that you don't even have to have proof that your fear is justified, you just have to have a believable fear of harm. Since every pregnancy has a real potential for injury and/or death of the mother, why shouldn't she be allowed to stand her ground?

There are a couple major differences between stand your ground and legalized abortion.

One being that in the vast majority of cases, a pregnancy does not cause the kind of harm that would justify lethal force to protect oneself. So it doesn't really meet the 'reasonable person' standard.

The other is that pregnancy risks rarely have the sort of immediacy that a self-defense situation has. With a pregnancy , if it's putting the mother's life at risk, it isn't generally the kind of risk where it's happening RIGHT NOW and she's got a split second to make a decision.

I'm for legalized abortion, but this is a dumb comparison.