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A quote worth considering?

Torus34

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As we near the November 3rd 'day of reckoning'*, the predictions of talk show hosts and politicians of what will happen should President of the United States of America lose the election become, it seems, more and more extreme.

There's an interesting quote from Mr. David Frum dating back to 2017. He stated, "If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.' The subtext, once one gets past the initial rhetoric, is how firmly modern conservatism is based upon actual evidence and how much is a matter of ideological faith.

Regards, stay safe 'n well. Remember the Big 3: masks, hand washing and physical distancing.

* The oblique reference to the evangelism of the late Rev. William Graham is intended.
 

aociswundumho

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As we near the November 3rd 'day of reckoning'*, the predictions of talk show hosts and politicians of what will happen should President of the United States of America lose the election become, it seems, more and more extreme.

There's an interesting quote from Mr. David Frum dating back to 2017. He stated, "If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.' The subtext, once one gets past the initial rhetoric, is how firmly modern conservatism is based upon actual evidence and how much is a matter of ideological faith.

Regards, stay safe 'n well. Remember the Big 3: masks, hand washing and physical distancing.

* The oblique reference to the evangelism of the late Rev. William Graham is intended.

I've never understood why people fetishize democracy, i.e. majority rule, when it's such an obvious and terrible way to make decisions.
 

snakestretcher

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I've never understood why people fetishize democracy, i.e. majority rule, when it's such an obvious and terrible way to make decisions.

Right, because the alternative, dictatorship, is such a great idea? If your dictator says that everyone of a certain persuasion is going to be incarcerated in a concentration camp-including you-who do you turn to for help when there is no alternative?
 

Torus34

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I've never understood why people fetishize democracy, i.e. majority rule, when it's such an obvious and terrible way to make decisions.

The framers of the Constitution of the United States of America, elitists they, had a deep mistrust of a simple democracy*. Thus we find that curious, unique institution, the Electoral College. You might also consider the argument presented in Plato's The Republic', a marvelous exercise in Aristotelian logic.

Regards, stay safe 'n well. Remember the Big 3: masks, hand washing and physical distancing.

* As one wag had it, 'Democracy is the counting of heads without regard as to their contents.'
 

JasperL

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I've never understood why people fetishize democracy, i.e. majority rule, when it's such an obvious and terrible way to make decisions.

Thus proving the OP correct.....

It's a terrible way to govern, except for all the ways that are worse. Would you prefer autocracy, so long as you personally agree with the autocrat/dictator/strong man? How about a monarchy? Just ordain Trump king and then Don Jr. succeeds him? What do you suggest in the alternative?
 

bluesmoke

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Frum was half right and half wrong. In reality, the Republicans are rejecting democracy and have abandoned conservatism.
 

aociswundumho

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Right, because the alternative, dictatorship, is such a great idea? If your dictator says that everyone of a certain persuasion is going to be incarcerated in a concentration camp-including you-who do you turn to for help when there is no alternative?

Consider a decision regarding how much you will be paid for your labor. One way is for a dictator to mandate your wage. Another is for the people to vote on what your wage should be. But the best way is to simply let you negotiate your pay for yourself. This last way requires no dictator nor does it require a mob of idiot voters.
 

snakestretcher

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Consider a decision regarding how much you will be paid for your labor. One way is for a dictator to mandate your wage. Another is for the people to vote on what your wage should be. But the best way is to simply let you negotiate your pay for yourself. This last way requires no dictator nor does it require a mob of idiot voters.

Negotiation is a democratic process. That's your argument, ****ed. With no representation, as in a dictatorship, your wage demands may well end with '**** off, I'll hire someone cheaper'

https://www.ilo.org/dyn/normlex/en/...2_HIER_ELEMENT_ID,P70002_HIER_LEVEL:3947747,1
 
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aociswundumho

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Negotiation is a democratic process.

No it isn't, and neither is so-called "collective bargaining". It's not a negotiation if one of the parties is being forced by law to "negotiate".

Wages are just one example of literally thousands of decisions that are made by government but should be made by each individual for himself.
 

Simpletruther

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As we near the November 3rd 'day of reckoning'*, the predictions of talk show hosts and politicians of what will happen should President of the United States of America lose the election become, it seems, more and more extreme.

There's an interesting quote from Mr. David Frum dating back to 2017. He stated, "If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.' The subtext, once one gets past the initial rhetoric, is how firmly modern conservatism is based upon actual evidence and how much is a matter of ideological faith.

Regards, stay safe 'n well. Remember the Big 3: masks, hand washing and physical distancing.

* The oblique reference to the evangelism of the late Rev. William Graham is intended.

Between the two sides, only one shows a tendency to be lawless and riot. So the real concern is if trump wins. It will be hell in places likely.

And of course all the irresponsible rhetoric on both sides about the other side stealing the election will only stir the rioters more.
 

JasperL

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Consider a decision regarding how much you will be paid for your labor. One way is for a dictator to mandate your wage. Another is for the people to vote on what your wage should be. But the best way is to simply let you negotiate your pay for yourself. This last way requires no dictator nor does it require a mob of idiot voters.

What form of government is that?

Pointing out that many market transactions are voluntary arrangements between a willing buyer and seller tells us nothing. Those types of market-based transactions exist under monarchies, autocracies, and various forms of 'democratic' systems, such as our own. So what does that tell us? Nothing except that market based transactions are often a good way to conduct business, when backed up by various laws.

What if I buy a boat from you for $500,000, and you loan me that money, and I agree to pay you $10,000 a month for 5 years. All that was negotiated between me and you in a voluntary transaction. The next day I decide I don't want to repay that loan, and don't make a single payment. Now what? You can sue me, repossess the boat, etc. but that's because laws allow for those solutions. Who makes the laws and enforces them? What if I prevent you from taking the boat by hiring some guys with AR-15s to shoot anyone, kill them, who comes to get it? That's murder, most likely, but who decided that and who arrests and prosecutes me? Oh, yeah, government does. What kind of government?
 

aociswundumho

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What form of government is that?

Why does everything have to revolve around the state with you progressives? You're like a bunch of Mussolini wannabees - everything within the state, nothing outside of the state.

Pointing out that many market transactions are voluntary arrangements between a willing buyer and seller tells us nothing.

Yes it does, it tells us that government intervention is neither needed nor desired.

What if I buy a boat from you for $500,000, and you loan me that money, and I agree to pay you $10,000 a month for 5 years. All that was negotiated between me and you in a voluntary transaction. The next day I decide I don't want to repay that loan, and don't make a single payment. Now what? You can sue me, repossess the boat, etc. but that's because laws allow for those solutions. Who makes the laws and enforces them?

JFC, government isn't the only source of law, nor is it even a particularly good source of law. In fact, government is such a failure regarding law and courts that there is a massive market for private arbitration in the US and around the world.
 

JasperL

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Why does everything have to revolve around the state with you progressives? You're like a bunch of Mussolini wannabees - everything within the state, nothing outside of the state.

That's not the point. Market transactions can and do happen with dictatorships, monarchies, and democratic forms of government. You pointing out that they are good ways to conduct business isn't telling us a thing worth knowing. Yes, voluntary transactions between willing buyers and sellers is generally a GOOD THING!!

They might be bad if that thing being bought and sold is a nuclear weapon, but interfering with that involves.....GOVERNMENT, and laws. You can't tell us what kind of government you prefer.

JFC, government isn't the only source of law, nor is it even a particularly good source of law. In fact, government is such a failure regarding law and courts that there is a massive market for private arbitration in the US and around the world.

Yes, only governments can make laws. Private parties can enter into contracts, and arbitration can resolve disputes around those contracts in the context of....THE LAW.
 

Torus34

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Between the two sides, only one shows a tendency to be lawless and riot. So the real concern is if trump [sic] wins. It will be hell in places likely.

And of course all the irresponsible rhetoric on both sides about the other side stealing the election will only stir the rioters more.

Hi!

I'm not sue what bearing your comment has on the OP, but thanks for taking time to respond.

Regards, stay safe 'n well. Remember the Big 3: masks, hand washing and physical distancing.
 

Questerr

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I've never understood why people fetishize democracy, i.e. majority rule, when it's such an obvious and terrible way to make decisions.

What's a better way? Dictatorship?

Power that isn't derived from the vocal affirmative consent of the governed is not valid.
 

Sweden

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I've never understood why people fetishize democracy, i.e. majority rule, when it's such an obvious and terrible way to make decisions.

You have a point of course - but 'democracy' can take many different forms. The sort of democracy that is most common in the West relies on a fiction: that everyone is equally capable of taking wise and informed decisions when manifestly they are not. This could be modified in all sorts of ways. For example a simple step would be to limit the franchise to those who might be assumed to have reached maturity which, these days, means something like the age of 35.
 

Deuce

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Why does everything have to revolve around the state with you progressives? You're like a bunch of Mussolini wannabees - everything within the state, nothing outside of the state.



Yes it does, it tells us that government intervention is neither needed nor desired.



JFC, government isn't the only source of law, nor is it even a particularly good source of law. In fact, government is such a failure regarding law and courts that there is a massive market for private arbitration in the US and around the world.

Whoah, calm down there sport. It was a simple question. No need to go all triggered.
 

aociswundumho

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Power that isn't derived from the vocal affirmative consent of the governed is not valid.

By that standard, a representative democracy is invalid, since most people don't vote (in the US).
 

snakestretcher

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No it isn't, and neither is so-called "collective bargaining". It's not a negotiation if one of the parties is being forced by law to "negotiate".

Wages are just one example of literally thousands of decisions that are made by government but should be made by each individual for himself.

Don't be ridiculous; if I decide I want a wage rise and my boss says 'no', the decision is out of my hands. We've seen how 'well' dictatorship works out, and fought a world war to destroy one particularly nasty example-which you probably thought was great. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
 

dex4974

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Right, because the alternative, dictatorship, is such a great idea? If your dictator says that everyone of a certain persuasion is going to be incarcerated in a concentration camp-including you-who do you turn to for help when there is no alternative?

Dictators do have their own benefits. They can move a lot of pieces at once and make big things happen. Democracy is painfully slow and arduous. Maybe there's a form of government we haven't thought of yet that can be better than both.
 

snakestretcher

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Dictators do have their own benefits. They can move a lot of pieces at once and make big things happen. Democracy is painfully slow and arduous. Maybe there's a form of government we haven't thought of yet that can be better than both.

Yes, dictators have their own benefits, but they seldom apply to those whom they are dictating to. I can't think of a single dictatorship that has benefited anyone other than the dictator himself and his immediate cabal. They tend not to end well either; Ceausescu, Mussolini, Hitler, Pahlavi etc, etc.
Any time absolute power is obtained with no legal political opposition in place as checks and balances, you're leaving yourself wide open to abuses of power.
 
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dex4974

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Yes, dictators have their own benefits, but seldom those whom they are dictating to. I can't think of a single dictatorship that has benefited anyone other than the dictator himself and his immediate cabal. They tend not to end well; Ceausescu, Mussolini, Hitler, Pahlavi etc, etc.

The problem is right now a dictator has to chase power to obtain it. People that chase power are naturally terrible. Maybe we could bestow dictatorship on somebody that doesn't want it instead. haha
 

snakestretcher

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The problem is right now a dictator has to chase power to obtain it. People that chase power are naturally terrible. Maybe we could bestow dictatorship on somebody that doesn't want it instead. haha

Or, in the case of Pahlavi (Iran), he was installed at the behest of the CIA after a legitimate and democratically elected government was overthrown with their complicity.
 
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