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A question of those who don't support the war in Iraq:

Will proof of an Iraq/AlQaeda connection change your views on the war?

  • Yes, if it is shown that Saddam supported terrorists I will support the war.

    Votes: 5 27.8%
  • No, nothing will change my mind I'm a vehement pacifist.

    Votes: 6 33.3%
  • I already support the war.

    Votes: 7 38.9%

  • Total voters
    18
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Steven Hayes a journalist for the Weekly Standard says he has obtained information from 11 separate sources, that say there exists classified documents proving that Saddam Hussein recruited and trained thousands of Radical Islamic radicals within Iraq at Salman Pak. He is pushing for these documents to be released and he says that he has made some in roads and hopes that these documents are released within two weeks.

If the documents are released and if they do infact prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was an operational relationship between Saddam and AlQaeda (as many of us evil naive Conservatives have claimed this whole time) will it change your opinion of the war in Iraq?

You can read more about this breaking story here:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/550kmbzd.asp
 
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Engimo

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If one believes that the end justifies the means, this would make a difference. I do not think this is the case, though. Finding this sort of information after the fact does not bolster the cause that we had for originally going to war - we didn't know this back then.

The justifications for war were as flimsy before this information was revealed as they are now - no amount of evidence will change the amount of information we had when we originally went to war.
 

Kelzie

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Once it hits the real media it will deserve some attention. But I have a feeling that only right-wing underground extremists will run a story on it.
 

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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Steven Hayes a journalist for the Weekly Standard says he has obtained information from 11 separate that there exists classified documents proving that Saddam Hussein recruited and trained thousands of Radical Islamic radicals within Iraq at Salman Pak. He is pushing for these documents to be released and he says that he has made some in roads and hopes that these documents are released within two weeks.

If the documents are released and if they do infact prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was an operational relationship between Saddam and AlQaeda (as many of us evil naive Conservatives have claimed this whole time) will it change your opinion of the war in Iraq?

You can read more about this breaking story here:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/550kmbzd.asp
My friend the left does not care......If we found Nuclear Weapons in Iraq ready for delivery to the USA it would make no difference.......This is all about hatred for President Bush......When it comes to our liberal and left wing friends that is all that counts..........
 
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Engimo said:
If one believes that the end justifies the means, this would make a difference. I do not think this is the case, though. Finding this sort of information after the fact does not bolster the cause that we had for originally going to war - we didn't know this back then.

The justifications for war were as flimsy before this information was revealed as they are now - no amount of evidence will change the amount of information we had when we originally went to war.
What are you talking about you guys have been saying since day one that the reason you oppose the war is because Bush lied about the Iraq-AlQaeda connection, and now that it seems probable that the information which will prove that very connection will come to the for-front very soon you change your story yet again.

So why exactly are you opposed to the war this time?

Well don't answer we all already know why, it's because Bush is in office.
 

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Navy Pride said:
My friend the left does not care......If we found Nuclear Weapons in Iraq ready for delivery to the USA it would make no difference.......This is all about hatred for President Bush......When it comes to our liberal and left wing friends that is all that counts..........
Not at all. Even if we found nuclear weapons in Iraq, how does that change what the administration knew before the war? Sure, it'd be great if we knew that the war was worthwhile in the end, but that doesn't retroactively change the flimsy justifications for war we were presented with. It has nothing to do with hate.
 

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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
What are you talking about you guys have been saying since day one that the reason you oppose the war is because Bush lied about the Iraq-AlQaeda connection, and now that it seems probable that the information which will prove the connection will come to the for front very soon you change your story again.

So why exactly are you opposed to the war then?
Did the administration have this exact information when they tried to push for war? No. It doesn't matter if it turns out to be true, they didn't know it at the time.
 
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Kelzie said:
Once it hits the real media it will deserve some attention. But I have a feeling that only right-wing underground extremists will run a story on it.
You mean Radio Free U.S.?

You're probably right as long as the socialist, leftist's, and Democrats have the press in their back pockets and use them like a bully pulpet from which to spew forth their propoganda.

But lucky for us sweetheart we don't base our opinions on op-ed pieces and talk radio and if these classified documents are released you can rest assured that I will obtain them in whole and see for myself.
 
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Engimo said:
Did the administration have this exact information when they tried to push for war? No. It doesn't matter if it turns out to be true, they didn't know it at the time.
Of course the President knew it before hand that's what we're talking about here the reason why this information hasn't been released to the public yet or before the war was because it was classified information and it was classified to protect our sources over seas with in the AlQaeda and Iraqi upper Echelons.
 

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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Of course the President knew it before hand that's what we're talking about here the reason why this information hasn't been released to the public yet or before the war was because it was classified information and it was classified to protect our sources over seas with in the AlQaeda and Iraqi upper Echelons.
Article said:
THE FORMER IRAQI REGIME OF Saddam Hussein trained thousands of radical Islamic terrorists from the region at camps in Iraq over the four years immediately preceding the U.S. invasion, according to documents and photographs recovered by the U.S. military in postwar Iraq. The existence and character of these documents has been confirmed to THE WEEKLY STANDARD by eleven U.S. government officials.
That doesn't sound like pre-war to me.
 

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Hey, Trajan..

Maybe you should invest in one of those tin foil hats.... it may better protect you from such liberal programming and conditioning! :smile:
 

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This poll offers no option for a centrist opinion.. and that is problematic.

The only people I see supporting the war in Iraq are the same ones, like Trajan, that support The bush administration unconditionally.

I don't see how you can support bush and our troops at the same time.

I don't want our troops to die. I don't like Bush.

People that like Bush hold the souls of our troops as expendable. They like Bush.

Our troops exist to defend our Nation. Not to proliferate our political will and dictate our way of life abroad.

I'd be more than happy to support the Bush Agenda... if anyone can show me how Iraq was EVER a threat to US.
 

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Proof?

You mean evidence, motive, and timing?

Let's hear the proof first.. then let's decide...

It's the American way.

What proof?
 
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Engimo said:
That doesn't sound like pre-war to me.
OK fine so what if it did.

A) The President claims he has knowledge of links between Iraq and AlQaeda.

B) That assertion is later proven to be true.

Conclusion the President was telling the truth and the war was and is justified.

So I really don't see your argument here.
 

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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
OK fine so what if it did.

A) The President claims he has knowledge of links between Iraq and AlQaeda.

B) That assertion is later proven to be true.

Conclusion the President was telling the truth and the war was and is justified.

So I really don't see your argument here.
Okay, so what about this situation:

1. I make a claim that George Bush is having a homosexual affair with Dick Cheney, based on absolutely no evidence.
2. Years go by and this turns out to be true.

Does that mean that I was right in making the accusation in the first place? No. I didn't have the information at the time.
 
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Conflict said:
This poll offers no option for a centrist opinion.. and that is problematic.

The only people I see supporting the war in Iraq are the same ones, like Trajan, that support The bush administration unconditionally.

I don't see how you can support bush and our troops at the same time.

I don't want our troops to die. I don't like Bush.

People that like Bush hold the souls of our troops as expendable. They like Bush.

Our troops exist to defend our Nation. Not to proliferate our political will and dictate our way of life abroad.

I'd be more than happy to support the Bush Agenda... if anyone can show me how Iraq was EVER a threat to US.
And that's the nut of it you don't like Bush and that's why you don't support the war because you're a ravid partisan who will never support anything this president does whether it's right or wrong. This President could save a child from getting hit by a bus and you would say that it was the wrong move because that child might grow up to be a serial killer.

The point is that all of your reasons for not supporting this was are bullshit and the real reason you don't support it is because you don't support Bush.

And another thing if it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that there were ties between the same organization that perpetrated the 911 attacks (AlQaeda) and the Saddam Regime, then just how in the fuc/k is going to war with the person who funded and trained members of this organization, not defending our country???
 

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Enigmo said:
Okay, so what about this situation:

1. I make a claim that George Bush is having a homosexual affair with Dick Cheney, based on absolutely no evidence.
2. Years go by and this turns out to be true.

Does that mean that I was right in making the accusation in the first place? No. I didn't have the information at the time.
Is the the best logical antecdote that you have? That is simply ridiculous. You really should invest in a tin-foil hat.
 
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Conflict

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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
And that's the nut of it you don't like Bush and that's why you don't support the war because you're a ravid partisan who will never support anything this president does whether it's right or wrong. This President could save a child from getting hit by a bus and you would say that it was the wrong move because that child might grow up to be a serial killer.

The point is that all of your reasons for not supporting this was are bullshit and the real reason you don't support it is because you don't support Bush.

And another thing if it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that there were ties between the same organization that perpetrated the 911 attacks (AlQaeda) and the Saddam Regime, then just how in the fuc/k is going to war with the person who funded and trained members of this organization, not defending our country???
Trajan put the bomb down. No abortion clinics need to be bombed today. Put the bomb down and pick up a tin-foil hat.
 

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Conflict said:
Is the the best logical antecdote that you have? That is simply ridiculous. You really should invest in a tin-foil hat.
Antecdote is not a word, and I'm not a paranoiac in the slightest. It is a valid analogy to what TOT is trying to present as a logical argument.

What we find in Iraq after the fact does not have any bearing on what we knew before we went to war.
 
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Engimo said:
Okay, so what about this situation:

1. I make a claim that George Bush is having a homosexual affair with Dick Cheney, based on absolutely no evidence.
2. Years go by and this turns out to be true.

Does that mean that I was right in making the accusation in the first place? No. I didn't have the information at the time.
If you had information that led you to support that assertion (as Bush did in his assertion that there were Iraqi-AlQaeda links as I've already shown you on another thread) and later unequivacable evidence; such as, photos of Bush getting it on with Cheney in the oval office came to light, then damn right you were justified in making that accusation because it would have been proven to be true.

If someone makes a comment and that comment is proven to be true later on down the road then how the **** exactly wasn't that comment true already? I really don't see any other way of looking at it. Now if the comment was proven to be untrue then that's a whole different story but that is not the case here.
 

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Engimo said:
Antecdote is not a word, and I'm not a paranoiac in the slightest. It is a valid analogy to what TOT is trying to present as a logical argument.

What we find in Iraq after the fact does not have any bearing on what we knew before we went to war.
lol I agree.... I am only subscribing to the Trajan strategem.... anyone who disagrees must be a flaming left-wing extremist paranoid schizophrenic manic depressive lunatic. That's the basis of the motive for anyone who dares disagree with his sycophantic ilk. I was being sardonic.

No pun intended (as far as your concerned) Engimo.
 

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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
If you had information that led you to support that assertion (as Bush did in his assertion that there were Iraqi-AlQaeda links as I've already shown you on another thread) and later unequivacable evidence; such as, photos of Bush getting it on with Cheney in the oval office came to light, then damn right you were justified in making that accusation because it would have been proven to be true.
The "links" that you have shown are casual and did not indicate any cooperative relationship. It's equivalent to having pictures of Bush and Cheney hugging eachother or laughing and shaking hands.
 

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Conflict said:
lol I agree.... I am only subscribing to the Trajan strategem.... anyone who disagrees must be a flaming left-wing extremist paranoid schizophrenic manic depressive lunatic. That's the basis of the motive for anyone who dares disagree with his sycophantic ilk. I was being sardonic.

No pun intended (as far as your concerned) Engimo.
Ahh, gotcha. By the way, what is the latin in your avatar? I could swear I've seen it before in either a philosophical or mathematical context.
 
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Conflict said:
Is the the best logical antecdote that you have? That is simply ridiculous. You really should invest in a tin-foil hat.
Don't put my name on that sh!t this aint the basement this is the place for serious intellectual debate, you can read my opinion on you here:

http://debatepolitics.com/showthread.php?t=7181
 

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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Don't put my name on that sh!t this aint the basement this is the place for serious intellectual debate, you can read my opinion on you here:

http://debatepolitics.com/showthread.php?t=7181
I thought the basement was like Vegas.... Whatever happens in the basement stays in the basement?

The funny thing is that I am completely not in any way concerned with your opinion.
 
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