A question of those who don't support the war in Iraq:

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Oh yes I am very aware of this document. Which is why I was confused during the debate between Sen. Edwards and the Vice President during the '04 elections. V.P. Cheney did say that there was no connection between Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda. And that he didn't know where Edwards came up with the idea that he (Cheney) had said anything like that.

Now, one of these 2 positions is a lie. But don't question me about it.

Why don't you ask your beloved administration which one is the lie? Was Saddam helping Al-Qaeda or wasn't he?

Dick Cheney and President Bush have both made each statement in contradiction of themselves. And that's the only thing we know is true right now.

Cheney never said that AlQaeda and Saddam were not connected what he said was that Iraq was not connected to 9-11 and that he never made that claim, that's a big difference there buddy.

 

[tecoyah]

The only thing that will change my mind on this war is a time machine.....and finishing Afghanistan BEFRORE taking out Saddam. In this way we might have built a foothold to work from....and...I dont know...maybe....stabalized one place before de-stabalizing another.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

The only thing that will change my mind on this war is a time machine.....and finishing Afghanistan BEFRORE taking out Saddam. In this way we might have built a foothold to work from....and...I dont know...maybe....stabalized one place before de-stabalizing another.

I think O.B.L. got killed by MOAB in the opening stage of the war and those tapes were either one of his doubles or pre-recorded, think about it that's the exact Propoganda type sh!t he would do. And think about it's the Zarqwi (or is it Zawahir I can never remember) who's been making statements recently. I think he's dead and buried in the desert and we'll never find him.

 

[tecoyah]

I think O.B.L. got killed by MOAB in the opening stage of the war and those tapes were either one of his doubles or pre-recorded, think about it that's the exact Propoganda type sh!t he would do. And think about it's the Zarqwi (or is it Zawahir I can never remember) who's been making statements recently. I think he's dead and buried in the desert and we'll never find him.

This is , of course, quite possible. I simply feel we bypassed the opportunity of a lifetime by allowing Afghanistan to slip away from the controlled Democratic state it could have been. Imagine the message sent to the middle eastern governments if we had managed to take a country that pushed back Russia, produced the Taliban, and bordered on Kaos for centuries, and turn it into the solid democratic country we are so desparately trying to build in Iraq. We could also have legitimately done these things with the blessings of most of the world.
Imagine the pressure we could have exerted on Saddam when our forces had a foothold next door....and the rest of the world actually felt we were right to be there. Imagine the reactions from the Iraqi people...knowing they could take part in such a democracy. These things are not a given....and may have never come to pass. But in my mind they have a far better chance of success than what we are stepping in now. I honestly think Civil war is likely if/when we pull out of Iraq. And have given up any hope of "Using" afghanistan to our advantage.

In Short....We ClusterF@cked this war completely.

 

[M14 Shooter]

These new "documents" just seem to be a desperate attempt to justify the deaths of 2,000 good americans and 100,000 innocent Iraqis. And the spending of billions of dollars.

You act as if we planted these documents.

We knew Saddam supported terrorism - these papers show his involvement was deeper than we knew.

Strike preemptively first, find rationale later. Dumb:roll:

Good thing thats not what we did.

 

[M14 Shooter]

This is , of course, quite possible. I simply feel we bypassed the opportunity of a lifetime by allowing Afghanistan to slip away from the controlled Democratic state it could have been.

Please tell me why you aren't rather premature in judging Afghanistan a failure.

Imagine the message sent to the middle eastern governments if we had managed to take a country that pushed back Russia, produced the Taliban, and bordered on Kaos for centuries, and turn it into the solid democratic country we are so desparately trying to build in Iraq.

I'm not at all sure why you think we -aren't- doind that now.

Imagine the pressure we could have exerted on Saddam when our forces had a foothold next door....

Afghanistan isnt next door to Iraq.

 

[tecoyah]

Please tell me why you aren't rather premature in judging Afghanistan a failure.

If you consider the situation in Afghanistan a success....you are a very optimistic person. The druglords now run free, and control vast areas of the country, American forces are but a showing for the most part, the Taliban shows signs of continued life......I would go on but, what would be the point, as you will not understand my perspective in this.


I'm not at all sure why you think we -aren't- doind that now.

Because I have no blinders on


Afghanistan isnt next door to Iraq.

I am well aware of Geography..... perhaps you might choose at some point in your life to place worthwhile contributions on this board, rather than continued argument of things one can only hope you actually understand. In the context of a Middle Eastern campaign, Afghanistan is indeed next door to Iraq.....as it would serve as a staging point for troop movement throughout the area. Let alone the influence it would have on Iran.

 

[M14 Shooter]

If you consider the situation in Afghanistan a success....you are a very optimistic person.

You've already comdemned it as a failure. You;re a pretty pessimistic person.

I am well aware of Geography..... perhaps you might choose at some point in your life to place worthwhile contributions on this board, rather than continued argument of things one can only hope you actually understand.

Yeah - I think your psosts are pretty stupid, too.
What was your point?

In the context of a Middle Eastern campaign, Afghanistan is indeed next door to Iraq.....as it would serve as a staging point for troop movement throughout the area. Let alone the influence it would have on Iran.

Good news - you now have a chance to illustrate your 'brilliance' and 'understanding':

Iraq v Afghanistan, as a 'staging point troop movement throughout the area':

Whatver argument you can come up with for Afghanistan in this regard applies to Iraq... but Iraq has one HUGE advantage over Afghanistan.

Can you guess what that is?

 

[Saboteur]

Cheney never said that AlQaeda and Saddam were not connected what he said was that Iraq was not connected to 9-11 and that he never made that claim, that's a big difference there buddy.

Not really, it's a small difference at best. And it is relavent given the premiss of this thread.

 

[hipsterdufus]

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised either if these were valid documents. But I should hope that the white house would have had a good rationale in the first place not after the fact of invasion.

If still less people support the war than before are you going to lose sleep over it? Why do you care if the nation supports the war or not? Our troops are there now and they're doing a great job and are not going anywhere until the administration sees fit to move them out. There is no question in that. What is in question however is whether or not our troops are there for a good reason.

These new "documents" just seem to be a desperate attempt to justify the deaths of 2,000 good americans and 100,000 innocent Iraqis. And the spending of billions of dollars.
Strike preemptively first, find rationale later. Dumb:roll:

Make that trillions of dollars.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Not really, it's a small difference at best. And it is relavent given the premiss of this thread.

"Iraq was involved w/ AQ"
"Iraq was involved w/ 9/11"

There's a big difference there, especially given that the former, not the latter, was part of the argument for the war.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

This is , of course, quite possible. I simply feel we bypassed the opportunity of a lifetime by allowing Afghanistan to slip away from the controlled Democratic state it could have been. Imagine the message sent to the middle eastern governments if we had managed to take a country that pushed back Russia, produced the Taliban, and bordered on Kaos for centuries, and turn it into the solid democratic country we are so desparately trying to build in Iraq. We could also have legitimately done these things with the blessings of most of the world.
Imagine the pressure we could have exerted on Saddam when our forces had a foothold next door....and the rest of the world actually felt we were right to be there. Imagine the reactions from the Iraqi people...knowing they could take part in such a democracy. These things are not a given....and may have never come to pass. But in my mind they have a far better chance of success than what we are stepping in now. I honestly think Civil war is likely if/when we pull out of Iraq. And have given up any hope of "Using" afghanistan to our advantage.

In Short....We ClusterF@cked this war completely.

What are you talking about Afghanistan has had elections, we still have troops there and the only areas that still have Taliban remnants is in the Pakistani-Afghan border areas, what we didn't want to do is have a long drawn out Guirilla war with to many of our troops on the ground like the Soviets did. Our strategy is working in Afghanistan, we learned from the mistakes of the Soviets, what is needed in Afghanistan is a surgical approach; a scalpal rather than a broad sword.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Not really, it's a small difference at best. And it is relavent given the premiss of this thread.

Bullshit it's a huge difference.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by Trajan Octavian Titus:
If the documents are released and if they do infact prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was an operational relationship between Saddam and AlQaeda (as many of us evil naive Conservatives have claimed this whole time) will it change your opinion of the war in Iraq?

If it is proven there is an operational relationship between Hussein and al Qaeda, it changes everything. We would no longer be in violation of Article 51 of the UN Charter, we would be in compliance with it.

 

[Conflict]

I am just curious..

Why exactly are we still in Iraq, again?

Don't we have enough puppets to orchestrate our theatrical war?

A war that has been forgotten... as our borders lay open.... and Bin Laden romes freely in the mountains of pakistan... what ever happened to the NRO... was it discommissioned to use kinetic energy weapons to create intricate crop circles?

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by Conflict:
I am just curious..

Why exactly are we still in Iraq, again?

Were there to find out how our oil got under their sand!