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- Libertarian
What nonsense.
I'm 100% right. You're 100% wrong. You never even knew that ALL libertarians oppose Direct taxes, if you HAD known that, then you would not have asked if libertarians support "incentives" on Direct Taxes. . . or on subsidies. ALL libertarians oppose subsidies, or any forms of market manipulations by the government.
This is some interesting stuff, there, unfortunately it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the libertarian's core principle of not empowering government to force (or coerce) a citizen to do something against his or her will. Direct Taxes do exactly that. If someone doesn't pay Income (Direct) Tax, then one gets fined, or put in prison, or BOTH.
"When the government fears the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." - Thomas Jefferson
You've completely ignored the difference between Direct Taxes, and Indirect Taxes. Without being able to distinguish the difference between the two, you cannot possibly understand why influential people in "libertarian circles" regard some taxes as acceptable, and other taxes as NOT ACCEPTABLE.
“ When I say cut taxes, I don’t mean fiddle with the code. I mean abolish the income tax and the IRS, and replace them with nothing.” - Ron Paul
ALL libertarians (including influential ones) oppose ANY forms of Direct Taxation. There are no exceptions. If someone thinks that Direct Taxes are acceptable, then they cannot possibly be a libertarian.
Is Tesla going bankrupt supposed to be a bad thing?
Show us your work.
LOL. Oh, ok, who knew.
The difference between monopolies in the 1870's and today, is the many of the people of that time still had a sense of civic duty, even the wealthiest men, that or the best way to display their vanity was to build schools and libraries and name them after themselves.
Today, men like Musk are unlawfully striping funding away from the world poorest, including 10's of thousands of children and doing it with no shame and a total sense of glee.
Now even if you think that children dying in a far off land isn't your problem and you think that the government's money could better be spent elsewhere, I'd hope that you'd have the decency not to pull the rug out from under those people and then take joy in it. If that's not pure evil, nothing is.
Now find me a modern monopoly that you think benefits the public.
Again, demonstrably false for healthcare.
There's no disputing that Europe, So. Korea and Japan have better public transport
And as far as education, the only place the US competes on this list is some colleges.
We may soon as corporations work to consolidate control of the food supply. Fortunately, competition and a very large country to grow things in makes it a little harder to dominate.
Though, as an example of what I say, we've recently learned that the nation's largest egg producer is earning record profits 3 times higher than recent years, why?
Because of the perception of shortages allowed the industry to gouge people. Turns out that Bird Flu cost the industry about 4% of it's flock.
At every turn we learn about greedy capitalists gouging people for higher and higher profits. Libertarian utopia would be a nightmare.
You are definitely NOT a libertarian. There is not ONE libertarian on the entire planet who believes that government should have the power and authority to take (by force) the earnings of a citizen. NOT ONE.
You lean libertarian. Many people lean libertarian.
The very CORE principle of libertarianism is that government should NEVER force (or coerce) a person to do something against his or her will, and Direct Taxes (income taxes) forces the citizen to bend to their will. If we don't then government will hunt us down and inflict harm in some way.
If the Founding Fathers ever found out that Government was taking a portion of our earnings BY FORCE, they would be furious.
Biden should have done the right thing and resigned.
This might be one of the most unhinged and detached from reality posts I’ve ever read on this forum.Because Joe Biden killed 300 million chickens as a eff you to America for electing Donald Trump.
Only government has that level of power - no corporation could ever do it.
False - 300 million birds slaughtered - about 65% of the egg layers.
The outgoing administration sabotaged the food supply as a political dirty trick.
Yes, it's an indictment of Obama's Biden Junta, but it's also and indictment of government power in general.
Probably the same way some went "libertarian" to an authoritative rightist in league with the entrenched oligarchy.
Correct.Real libertarians oppose direct taxation.
Ok.claims to be libertarian and I believe he supports heavily progressive taxation. I don't think he is a fan of private property ownership either.
Who's telling you this lie? The image you show is of a grade 8 bolt. Are you comparing that to the costs of lesser grade bolts?Turning inward, and trying to make things at home is not the solution.
View attachment 67575048
This bolt costs .41 cents to make this 1/2in bolt in the US in quantities of 10k, it costs .07 cents/bolt to make in China. It costs $4.79 at Home Depot.
Correct.
Ok.
But all libertarians oppose direct taxes. There are no exceptions.
For the record, @Ikari does not claim to be a libertarian. He leans libertarian. which is entirely possible. without actually being libertarian.
Left and right in my mind have varying ideals and yes. A libertarian can lean left or right. I consider one major difference in general to be:"Libertarian - left" is an oxymoron. Leftism is the desire for more government, libertarianism the desire for less. I guess everyone leans in a way. The ideals in "Man, Economy, and State" stuck with me and I embrace them. But I don't always agree with the LPUSA - especially not the modern version that has so little in common with Rothbard or Browne.
Agreed. Communism/Marxism is the farthest political ideology from libertarianism, and as the left marches towards Marxism/Socialism, the political divide widens. What is alarming to me is that republicans USED to champion smaller government and lower taxes (back in the 1990s), but are now Big Government, High Taxes, Redistribution of Wealth - just like the left. The difference is how they redistribute the wealth - the left likes to redistribute wealth to entitled individuals, while the right wants wealth redistributed to corporations, banks, and corn farmers (as subsidies)."Libertarian - left" is an oxymoron. Leftism is the desire for more government, libertarianism the desire for less.
During the 2016 Libertarian Party Presidential debate with Austin Petersen and John McAfee I was shocked when Gary Johnson argued that the State should have the power to force the baker to bake the Nazi cake.I guess everyone leans in a way. The ideals in "Man, Economy, and State" stuck with me and I embrace them. But I don't always agree with the LPUSA - especially not the modern version that has so little in common with Rothbard or Browne.
StrawmanSo the "Robber Barons were paragons of virtue."
Not by himself, He was the tip of the spear.Oh, Musk did that, huh?
If I throw a life vest to a person who's drowning (provide lifesaving food and medicine) to prevent you from drowning (starving) and it keeps them from drowning - though I had no obligation to do so, (prevents people from dying of starvation and disease), if I give the life vest to you while the person is still using it (the government changes administrations) and without warning you take it from the person who is using it (medicine, food) and the person using it dies as a result, then you (the US government and the administration in charge) are guilty of murder, despite the fact that there was no obligation it throw the life vest in the first place (provide foreign relief aid).You suppose that not only has American been supporting and promoting overpopulation in the third world, but that we have an obligation to do so.
"democrats can't embezzle from USAID - BILLIONS of CHILDREN are going to die."
You're hyperbole is absurd.
SMH... Make a statment about monopolies, and your response is about a company that isn't a monopoly, ironically ignoring the fact that the company you're praising will fall into bankruptcy within 3 years unless Musk is removed and the company rebuilds it's image and reputation.Tesla.
Not a true monopoly
Sounds like people see so much value in it, they can't get enough, but to answer your question....What constitutes better?
Both Japan and South Korea have transit systems that are horribly overcrowded
Confusing seriocomic factors with race and status, how xenophobic and racist of you.Take out minorities and immigrants and the USA in fact excels in education.
But diversity is our strength - according to the progressive left...
Making a sport out of straw manning my position aren't you?Typically it's governments who seize control of food supplies to force obedience by starving segments of society
Because Joe Biden killed 300 million chickens as a eff you to America for electing Donald Trump.
Watch me (continue to) expose the fact that you just make stuff up.False - 300 million birds slaughtered - about 65% of the egg layers.
Untitled Egg Producers disagrees with you.Again, it is clearly government and the authoritarian socialists who are a danger to the average person. As your egg story proves.
The picture was just an image, I didn't know I'd have any bolt experts out there, so let me be more exact.....Who's telling you this lie? The image you show is of a grade 8 bolt. Are you comparing that to the costs of lesser grade bolts?
So where is your pricing information for the USA made grade 2 bolt?The picture was just an image, I didn't know I'd have any bolt experts out there, so let me be more exact.....
If you want to buy a 1/4x20x1" 18-8 stainless steel bolt, (going back to double check), oops, I was looking at a different quote. It's 35 cents not 41.
If you want to call or fill out the quote, here's where the quote came from.
Here is a quote from an overseas supplier for the same bolt. And you can see 9 cents a piece is for 100.
View attachment 67575242
Point still stands....
First, I realize that using the term Libertarian casts a very wide net, so I expect to get a range of responses.
So here is my question.
It is my understanding that most Libertarians want private ownership, generally speaking, in as much as possible.
The claim is that anything that can and should be created should be funded privately and that this will result in improvements over the public/ private system we have now.
Now, I have an objection to this idea on practical grounds and I'm curious if there is someone who'd be willing to point out why my concerns are unfounded.
My concern is that businesses are, by their nature, risk averse. They tend to be short-sighted as a lot of emphasis is placed on short term profitability and return on investment (ROI). In the world we have now businesses are allowed to write down losses and many businesses will show losses for years before showing profitability, but it's taxpayers that pay for some if not all of the losses, This increases return on investment and reduces the barriers to entry for new businesses increasing the ability for startups to be more competitive.
It is my assumption, that people that adhere closely to "pure" Libertarianism would not agree to a government that provides tax incentives or subsidies or other advantages to any business, thus, this would cause at least two major problems in my mind.
1. The barrier to entry would be even greater than it is now delaying profitability and requiring investors to take much greater risks (with great risk must come the promise of great potential returns).
2. Increased risk comes at an increased cost.
3. Even if the private sector could have invented the internet, built the infrastructure to utilize it, settled on thousands if not 10's of thousands of interoperability standards, is there any reason to think, that without government providing tax incentives (at both the federal and state level), grants for R&D, organizations like ISO, IEC, IEEE, IETF, W3C, OASIS, Ecma International, HL7 International, IHE, SISO, DMTF, The Open Group just to name a few (and yes some are international, but almost certainly established by US government influence if not money).
I don't think there's any evidence whatsoever, that private companies would be willing to take the risk to lead industry in novel directions, at least in a way that was competitive globally. Thus, I think US private industry in a Libertarian world would largely relegated to waiting until technologies were created outside the US and then iterate on them. I think the profit motive, when left without a social political mandate competes to do what's in a companies best interest, even if that interest creates a more complex and convoluted system.
I don't see the US under a purely private system can look forward 5-10 years when profits are reported quarterly.
My other issue with private companies running everything and the idea that they will do the right thing otherwise people won't purchase their products. Let's look at a real world example.
Dupont makes Teflon. Some of you may know that Teflon contamination (specifically C8 a processing aid used in the manufacturing of Teflon for many years. It helped in the polymerization process of PTFE, Teflon itself is inert at normal temperatures.) is so widespread that there isn't a single living thing that's not contaminated with it. Now Dupont has made $10 billion, extremely conservatively on it's sales of Teflon. A more realistic number could be as high as $30 billion.
They have been sued for approximately $6 billion. POFA, after 60 years was finally phased out in steps after 2003. Now we have C6. No long term publicly available testing, its assumed it's better than C8, but some preliminary testing shows it has similar effects as C8. But why should Dupon care? If future fines are some fraction of their profits.
Why should anyone believe that in a purely private system that Libertarians say that want that the Dupont case should expect to get better and not worse?
Chinese bullshit huh...The picture was just an image, I didn't know I'd have any bolt experts out there, so let me be more exact.....
If you want to buy a 1/4x20x1" 18-8 stainless steel bolt, (going back to double check), oops, I was looking at a different quote. It's 35 cents not 41.
If you want to call or fill out the quote, here's where the quote came from.
Here is a quote from an overseas supplier for the same bolt. And you can see 9 cents a piece is for 100.
View attachment 67575242
Point still stands....
I've read a lot of post on this board. I've yet to find a libertarian.
I found some fake ones though. They'll try to call themselves libertarians because of something. It's a way for them to skirt responsibility for what they actually vote for.
All I have is a screenshot, but it doesn't show the name of the company, which is why I included a link to the vendor so you don't have to take my word for it.So where is your pricing information for the USA made grade 2 bolt?
Not sure where you fall on this, so I'll just ask.Real Libertarian politics doesn’t authorize hate, or bigotry, or any other manner of causing harm to others.
I was unable to find a grade 2 stainless steel made in the USA. Higher grades yes. Grade 2 no.All I have is a screenshot, but it doesn't show the name of the company, which is why I included a link to the vendor so you don't have to take my word for it.
They quoted .35 cents a piece made in the USA. They said the materials for the bolt cost more than the ~10 cent quote I found the finished bolt over seas.
Can you find that same bolt confirmed made in the US for less than 35 cents/10k? You seemed pretty sure before calling me a liar.
If you find it and include a link so I can call/ email for a quote.
Not sure where you fall on this, so I'll just ask.
Is exploitation harm?
You might say it depends, after all, $12 popcorn in a movie theater is exploitation, but I think we can agree that's really not the kind of exploitation that I'm talking about.
So my question is, can you think of any form of exploitation that a person could subject another person to, that the exploiter did nothing to cause the situation, that could be considered harm?
First, I realize that using the term Libertarian casts a very wide net, so I expect to get a range of responses.
So here is my question.
It is my understanding that most Libertarians want private ownership, generally speaking, in as much as possible.
The claim is that anything that can and should be created should be funded privately and that this will result in improvements over the public/ private system we have now.
Now, I have an objection to this idea on practical grounds and I'm curious if there is someone who'd be willing to point out why my concerns are unfounded.
My concern is that businesses are, by their nature, risk averse. They tend to be short-sighted as a lot of emphasis is placed on short term profitability and return on investment (ROI). In the world we have now businesses are allowed to write down losses and many businesses will show losses for years before showing profitability, but it's taxpayers that pay for some if not all of the losses, This increases return on investment and reduces the barriers to entry for new businesses increasing the ability for startups to be more competitive.
It is my assumption, that people that adhere closely to "pure" Libertarianism would not agree to a government that provides tax incentives or subsidies or other advantages to any business, thus, this would cause at least two major problems in my mind.
1. The barrier to entry would be even greater than it is now delaying profitability and requiring investors to take much greater risks (with great risk must come the promise of great potential returns).
2. Increased risk comes at an increased cost.
3. Even if the private sector could have invented the internet, built the infrastructure to utilize it, settled on thousands if not 10's of thousands of interoperability standards, is there any reason to think, that without government providing tax incentives (at both the federal and state level), grants for R&D, organizations like ISO, IEC, IEEE, IETF, W3C, OASIS, Ecma International, HL7 International, IHE, SISO, DMTF, The Open Group just to name a few (and yes some are international, but almost certainly established by US government influence if not money).
I don't think there's any evidence whatsoever, that private companies would be willing to take the risk to lead industry in novel directions, at least in a way that was competitive globally. Thus, I think US private industry in a Libertarian world would largely relegated to waiting until technologies were created outside the US and then iterate on them. I think the profit motive, when left without a social political mandate competes to do what's in a companies best interest, even if that interest creates a more complex and convoluted system.
I don't see the US under a purely private system can look forward 5-10 years when profits are reported quarterly.
My other issue with private companies running everything and the idea that they will do the right thing otherwise people won't purchase their products. Let's look at a real world example.
Dupont makes Teflon. Some of you may know that Teflon contamination (specifically C8 a processing aid used in the manufacturing of Teflon for many years. It helped in the polymerization process of PTFE, Teflon itself is inert at normal temperatures.) is so widespread that there isn't a single living thing that's not contaminated with it. Now Dupont has made $10 billion, extremely conservatively on it's sales of Teflon. A more realistic number could be as high as $30 billion.
They have been sued for approximately $6 billion. POFA, after 60 years was finally phased out in steps after 2003. Now we have C6. No long term publicly available testing, its assumed it's better than C8, but some preliminary testing shows it has similar effects as C8. But why should Dupon care? If future fines are some fraction of their profits.
Why should anyone believe that in a purely private system that Libertarians say that want that the Dupont case should expect to get better and not worse?
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