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A question for athiests

T

The Real McCoy

To those who do not believe in God and an afterlife, I propose this question: what difference would it make if someone were to lead a long, healthy, honorable life or if they went on a murderous rampage (Columbine for example) and then committed suicide? Is death not all the same in the end? Why exist in the first place?

And do you people honestly believe in purposless evolution? I'm not saying evolution doesn't exist because it does, clear as day. But WHY does it happen? What guides it? Nature? What initiated nature?
 
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Hornburger

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It is up to the individual to make a point out of their lives (examples would be families, materialism, making a difference in the world, power, etc). If you go on a rampage and be a murderer, you will end up in prison and will not lead a very happy and satisfying life.

Your life and how you want to live it is up to the individual. If you want to be happy, go and try and be happy. If you want a legacy, go start a family. If you want knowledge, go study. etc etc.

There are goals that atheists hope to achieve in life, and they also have morals that keep them from doing evil acts. These morals are based upon their values of life. If someone follows a moral life, they promote the fairness of letting people lead happy and safe lives.
 

hiker

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So in essence, you want to know "What is the meaning of life?" This is a question that all people have; athiest, Christian, what have you. The answer is whatever you are willing to live and/or die for. And don't cause harm to others if at all avoidable. It won't make the difference between a heaven or a hell, but it will keep you content.

Anyway, since nobody has the answers, stop worrying about it. You'll only be wasting time you could have been spending on your own enjoyment. You only live once, and it's a short life.

And just as a closing point, there is no difference between the righteous and the abominable sinner once you're dead. The only punishment or glory is of an Earthly nature. The idea of an eternal justice is an attempt from man to reconcile the fact that most evil is gotten away with and most good is gone unnoticed. It's too bad, but that's life.
 
T

The Real McCoy

Hornburger said:
If you go on a rampage and be a murderer, you will end up in prison and will not lead a very happy and satisfying life.
You failed to acknowledge the second part of my statement which was "and then commit suicide."
 
T

The Real McCoy

hiker said:
So in essence, you want to know "What is the meaning of life?" This is a question that all people have; athiest, Christian, what have you. The answer is whatever you are willing to live and/or die for. And don't cause harm to others if at all avoidable. It won't make the difference between a heaven or a hell, but it will keep you content.

Anyway, since nobody has the answers, stop worrying about it. You'll only be wasting time you could have been spending on your own enjoyment. You only live once, and it's a short life.

My question(s) aren't necessarily asking what the meaning of life is. They are meant to logically direct a non-believer to a higher being and point out that people who deny the existence of God can't back up their arguments with any form of rationality. It's a fact they can't and until I see a rational response RELEVANT to my initial post, I'll stand firm.

hiker said:
And just as a closing point, there is no difference between the righteous and the abominable sinner once you're dead. The only punishment or glory is of an Earthly nature. The idea of an eternal justice is an attempt from man to reconcile the fact that most evil is gotten away with and most good is gone unnoticed. It's too bad, but that's life.
That is a depressing, pessimistic and soulless view of our existence.
 
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Hornburger

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The Real McCoy said:
You failed to acknowledge the second part of my statement which was "and then commit suicide."
Well, then your life was pretty much a failure because your suicide symbolizes your failure in life, unless if you have twisted morals of some nature, and then you're just a sociopath.

And, actually you did ask us what the point of atheists living a good life would be:
To those who do not believe in God and an afterlife, I propose this question: what difference would it make if someone were to lead a long, healthy, honorable life or if they went on a murderous rampage (Columbine for example) and then committed suicide? Is death not all the same in the end? Why exist in the first place?
As for the second part of your question,
And do you people honestly believe in purposless evolution? I'm not saying evolution doesn't exist because it does, clear as day. But WHY does it happen? What guides it? Nature? What initiated nature?
Evolution occurs because of genetics. Genetically, some species are different than others. Because of these genetics, some species are better fit for their environment compared to others. So genetics guides it.

What initiated nature? Nothing initiated nature. I believe the universe just always was, it didn't really NEED creating, or a big bang, or anything like that. The human mind has trouble conceiving the idea of "infinity".
 
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T

The Real McCoy

Hornburger said:
Evolution occurs because of genetics. Genetically, some species are different than others. Because of these genetics, some species are better fit for their environment compared to others. So genetics guides it.
Yes, but from where did this insanely complex genetic code originate? Randomly? That's a mindless notion.


Hornburger said:
What initiated nature? Nothing initiated nature. I believe the universe just always was, it didn't really NEED creating, or a big bang, or anything like that. The human mind has trouble conceiving the idea of "infinity".
It's been scientifically proven the universe did have a beginning. That's one of many areas where science and the Bible agree 100%. And "infinity" exists in the realm outside of our physical universe, not in it.
 
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Hornburger

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The Real McCoy said:
Yes, but from where did this insanely complex genetic code originate? Randomly? That's a mindless notion.
How it originated? That's like saying how the very first life originated. Frankly, I don't know, I'm no biologist.

It's been scientifically proven the universe did have a beginning. That's one of many areas where science and the Bible agree 100%.
How has it been scientifically proven?

And "infinity" exists in the realm outside of our physical universe, not in it.
What do you mean? Why can't infinity exist in our universe, but can exist in others? I don't follow you.
 
T

The Real McCoy

Hornburger said:
How has it been scientifically proven?
All observations point to the beginning of the universe at roughly 14 billion years ago including the microwave background radiation, spectrographic radiation measurements of the oldest stars and galaxies and the galactic expansion rate. These are measurements, not simply estimates, that all coincide with each other.


Hornburger said:
What do you mean? Why can't infinity exist in our universe, but can exist in others? I don't follow you.
Infinity can't exist in our universe because of the nature of physical matter and energy. Infinity exists in the realm of the metaphysical where God exists and our intelligent minds tap into that plane to a certain degree, which sets humans apart from the animals.
 

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The Real McCoy said:
All observations point to the beginning of the universe at roughly 14 billion years ago including the microwave background radiation, spectrographic radiation measurments of the oldest stars and galaxies and the galactic expansion rate. These are measurements, not simply estimates, that all coincide with each other.
Well, then there goes my guess lol. Then I think there is yet to be a valid scientific explanation for the creation of the universe; I don't buy the Big Bang Theory, but maybe it can lead to a different explanation.

Infinity can't exist in our universe because of the nature of physical matter and energy. Infinity exists in the realm of the metaphysical where God exists and our intelligent minds tap into that plane to a certain degree, which sets humans apart from the animals.
Well, if all these universes and everything kept on existing forever, wouldn't that be infinity? I don't know. I mean, the universes themselves can keep existing, maybe the things inside the universes will die or break, but then others can just be reborn or created.

And myself, I don't think humans are much apart from animals. I mean, they are in the sense that we dominate the earth, and have superior intelligence, but I wouldn't say that we are "set apart" from the animals.
 

hiker

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The Real McCoy said:
My question(s) aren't necessarily asking what the meaning of life is. They are meant to logically direct a non-believer to a higher being and point out that people who deny the existence of God can't back up their arguments with any form of rationality. It's a fact they can't and until I see a rational response RELEVANT to my initial post, I'll stand firm.
Nobody can prove the existance or non-existance of a creator. That's why I said to not worry about it. What I do believe that contradicts religious people is that things happen for no reason or purpose. If you believe in heaven and hell and that God is watching over you all your life, you have a wonderfully simplified view of the world that gives you hope and helps you deal with suffering and loss. I am happy for you, and I envy you for it. Things in your world happen for a reason, God has a plan. In my world, you are born, you live (hopefully) a full lifetime, and you die. So it would be best for me to take advantage of what little time I have on this Earth to see what is to be seen, know what is to be known, and most of all, do not become preoccupied with things I cannot see or know.

The Real McCoy said:
That is a depressing, pessimistic and soulless view of our existence.
That is why I can be an athiest: I have come to terms with the fact that life is a short-term gift, not an eternity. Some people would be incredibly depressed if they woke up one day and realized that they are actually going to die and live no more. No heaven, no eternal life. Just finality. So enjoy what you have, be good to your fellow man, experience the beauty of nature, read good books, just do whatever makes you happy for as long as you can. I have come to grips with that, but it's tough to take. That is why I envy your belief.
 
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T

The Real McCoy

Hornburger said:
Well, then there goes my guess lol. Then I think there is yet to be a valid scientific explanation for the creation of the universe; I don't buy the Big Bang Theory, but maybe it can lead to a different explanation.
I buy the Big Bang Theory but I also believe God created the univerese in that he initiated what scientists now call "The Big Bang" There is no doubt in my mind that the universe began in an unfathomably violent explosion. ("Let there be light" as it goes) Besides, science can only observe the works of God, not God himself.


Hornburger said:
Well, if all these universes and everything kept on existing forever, wouldn't that be infinity? I don't know. I mean, the universes themselves can keep existing, maybe the things inside the universes will die or break, but then others can just be reborn or created.
What I meant was that this universe we live in is finite but the "universe" or "realm" (or whatever you choose to call it) that exists beyond the physical is in fact infinite.


Hornburger said:
And myself, I don't think humans are much apart from animals. I mean, they are in the sense that we dominate the earth, and have superior intelligence, but I wouldn't say that we are "set apart" from the animals.
While we certainly aren't set apart from animals in our physical bodies, like you said: the superior intelligence of our minds is what makes us unique. That intelligence is what allows us to probe into the concept of infinity.
 
T

The Real McCoy

Also, props to you Hornburger for being a libertarian. I'm not registered with the libertarian party but my views are more libertarian than anything else.
 
T

The Real McCoy

hiker said:
Nobody can prove the existance or non-existance of a creator.
Which is why athiesm makes no sense. They deny the existence of God yet have no rational reason to believe he does not exist.


hiker said:
What I do believe that contradicts religious people is that things happen for no reason or purpose.
Name me one thing in the history of time that has happened for no reason or purpose. ONE single event. That's all I need and then I shall prove you wrong.


hiker said:
That is why I can be an athiest: I have come to terms with the fact that life is a short-term gift, not an eternity.
Life in this physical world is not eternal, granted. But it's foolish to deny your eternal spirit.
 

Hornburger

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The Real McCoy said:
I buy the Big Bang Theory but I also believe God created the univerese in that he initiated what scientists now call "The Big Bang" There is no doubt in my mind that the universe began in an unfathomably violent explosion. ("Let there be light" as it goes) Besides, science can only observe the works of God, not God himself.
Well, I just don't see how this ball of gas can create this seemingly infinite array of galaxies and such...all from just a ball of gas, I don't see how it could have been, where did the solids and such come from? I don't know.

What I meant was that this universe we live in is finite but the "universe" or "realm" (or whatever you choose to call it) that exists beyond the physical is in fact infinite.
Oh, then yes, I would agree with that.

While we certainly aren't set apart from animals in our physical bodies, like you said: the superior intelligence of our minds is what makes us unique. That intelligence is what allows us to probe into the concept of infinity.
Yes, I would agree to that, mentally we are unparalled in our intelligence level.
 
T

The Real McCoy

Hornburger said:
Well, I just don't see how this ball of gas can create this seemingly infinite array of galaxies and such...all from just a ball of gas, I don't see how it could have been, where did the solids and such come from? I don't know.
The Big Bang theory doesn't claim the universe originated from a ball of gas. The universe sprouted out of a singularity with ZERO volume yet infinite mass. It wasn't a point in space or time but the BEGINNING of space and time itself, nearly impossible to comprehend. Gravity is the tool used in shaping of the structure of the universe including galaxies. Unfortunately, gravity is a mystery still yet to be unraveled by science.

Solids formed as a byproduct of nuclear fusion in the cores of stars. Hydrogen atoms fuse to helium which fuse to form carbon and so on..
Iron is the limit to this process however but heavier elements formed from the remnants of supernovae where temperatures reached degrees millions times hotter than the core of a star. The Sun is a 2nd generation star and it along with the rest of the solar system formed from the remnants of a supernova. First generation stars and their cooresponding systems have no elements heavier than iron in them.
 

hiker

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The Real McCoy said:
Which is why athiesm makes no sense. They deny the existence of God yet have no rational reason to believe he does not exist.
There is no rational explanation for or against a god. Anyone that say there is is only fooling himself and being very arrogant and presumptious to boot.

The Real McCoy said:
Name me one thing in the history of time that has happened for no reason or purpose. ONE single event. That's all I need and then I shall prove you wrong.
Perhaps I should have phrased my response differently. There is no pattern of intelligent control over random events. An example: yes, hurricanes have a cause of creation and a predictable path. But the events that lead to the creation of said hurricane were not put into place by an intelligent being, just the coincidental convergence of different elements (rain, jet stream, warm water, etc.) All natural disasters such as this (earthquakes, asteroid impacts, etc.) do have a reason behind their occurence, but no purpose. Only consequences.

The same logic applies to the formation of the universe as well. There is a logical explanation for everything from the formation onward till today. Our universe is the consequence of the big bang. It is a random consequence based on understandable and logical events. (The forming of suns, galaxies, planets, etc) What there was before the big bang is something mankind may never know. I try not to worry about it :smile: To link the time before time to an omnipotent being that is watching me right now is one hell of a leap in logic. I will be willing to give you this: I don't know. But neither do you. ;)

The Real McCoy said:
Life in this physical world is not eternal, granted. But it's foolish to deny your eternal spirit.
My eternal spirit is the memories of myself that I leave behind in the minds of the still living. I hope they are good memories, I try to be good to people that deserve it. And I do have a spirit: a human spirit that allows me to enjoy things that are beautiful; that allows me to feel the love of my fiance and give that back to her; to just stop every once in a while and think about how wonderful a place this world really is and how much I really enjoy being here. And of course, to hike a moutain every chance I get and set that spirit free. :smile:

Really, my brother, enjoy your life. No need to worry about things. :2wave:
 
T

The Real McCoy

hiker said:
There is no rational explanation for or against a god. Anyone that say there is is only fooling himself and being very arrogant and presumptious to boot.
You're half right. There is no rational explanation against God. The evidence for God, however, is overwhelming. The only evidence that suggest there is no God stems from circular reasoning. All the athiests I've encountered subconsciously shout "Oh my God!" on a daily basis.


hiker said:
Perhaps I should have phrased my response differently. There is no pattern of intelligent control over random events. An example: yes, hurricanes have a cause of creation and a predictable path. But the events that lead to the creation of said hurricane were not put into place by an intelligent being, just the coincidental convergence of different elements (rain, jet stream, warm water, etc.) All natural disasters such as this (earthquakes, asteroid impacts, etc.) do have a reason behind their occurence, but no purpose. Only consequences.
You admit that hurricanes are the result of these elements (which is undeniably true) but you presume these laws of physics originated randomly out of nowhere, with no purpose behind them.


hiker said:
The same logic applies to the formation of the universe as well. There is a logical explanation for everything from the formation onward till today. Our universe is the consequence of the big bang. It is a random consequence based on understandable and logical events. (The forming of suns, galaxies, planets, etc) What there was before the big bang is something mankind may never know. I try not to worry about it :smile: To link the time before time to an omnipotent being that is watching me right now is one hell of a leap in logic. I will be willing to give you this: I don't know. But neither do you. ;)
It's not a leap in logic. It IS logic.


hiker said:
My eternal spirit is the memories of myself that I leave behind in the minds of the still living. I hope they are good memories, I try to be good to people that deserve it. And I do have a spirit: a human spirit that allows me to enjoy things that are beautiful; that allows me to feel the love of my fiance and give that back to her; to just stop every once in a while and think about how wonderful a place this world really is and how much I really enjoy being here. And of course, to hike a moutain every chance I get and set that spirit free. :smile:
I realize this debate is endless, as are most God-believing vs. God-rejecting arguments, and I think you already know my views so I'm done. But I have one more thing to say: there is no risk in believing in God even if he doesn't actually exist but it's dangerous to disbelieve lest he actually does exist.


hiker said:
Really, my brother, enjoy your life. No need to worry about things.
I do enjoy my life, very much so and I wouldn't trade it for any other. :monkey
 

Hornburger

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The Real McCoy said:
The Big Bang theory doesn't claim the universe originated from a ball of gas. The universe sprouted out of a singularity with ZERO volume yet infinite mass. It wasn't a point in space or time but the BEGINNING of space and time itself, nearly impossible to comprehend. Gravity is the tool used in shaping of the structure of the universe including galaxies. Unfortunately, gravity is a mystery still yet to be unraveled by science.

Solids formed as a byproduct of nuclear fusion in the cores of stars. Hydrogen atoms fuse to helium which fuse to form carbon and so on..
Iron is the limit to this process however but heavier elements formed from the remnants of supernovae where temperatures reached degrees millions times hotter than the core of a star. The Sun is a 2nd generation star and it along with the rest of the solar system formed from the remnants of a supernova. First generation stars and their cooresponding systems have no elements heavier than iron in them.
Ohhh...thanks for the explanation, that makes much more sense then lol. I apologize, I am umm, a little uneducated in the realms of science lol...mmm yeah.

Also, props to you Hornburger for being a libertarian. I'm not registered with the libertarian party but my views are more libertarian than anything else.
Thanks :lol:

mmm, I am not 100% in line with the libertarians, however, because I don't agree with thier stances on abortion and home-schooling...but on the whole, I consider myself one since I am much more in-line with their views on issues and the role of the state as opposed to democrats or republicans...

Yeah, I'm not a registered libertarian either though, seeing as though I can't vote yet lol...but in elections I might vote republican instead because libertarians would have NO chance in what has developed into the two-party system of america. So although my views would be libretarian, I might be technically republican since I'd vote republican usually? I don't know lol.
 
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T

The Real McCoy

Hornburger said:
I might vote republican instead because libertarians would have NO chance in what has developed into the two-party system of america.
That's generally how libertarians vote. I'm optimistic about the growth of the libertarian party in the near future. It's unlikely one will ever be elected president but hopefully the issues pressed will have some reforming effects in mainstream politics.
 

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The Real McCoy said:
Which is why athiesm makes no sense. They deny the existence of God yet have no rational reason to believe he does not exist.
I cannot think of a rational argument to support the existence of a deity. You are coming at this from the wrong end.


The Real McCoy said:
Name me one thing in the history of time that has happened for no reason or purpose. ONE single event. That's all I need and then I shall prove you wrong.
You seem to be implying (correct me if I'm wrong) that everything happens for a purpose, and that purpose comes from your god. So why does your god want millions of people to starve to death? Millions to die from AIDS / cancer etc?
 
T

The Real McCoy

Naughty Nurse said:
I cannot think of a rational argument to support the existence of a deity. You are coming at this from the wrong end.
Take a look around you, it should be quite obvious. The complexity of the universe and life (particularly human life), is far too grand to be evolved from random processes. (not discrediting evolution, just saying there's an intelligent design behind the process.) The human race is here for a purpose and to deny the existence of a creator is a foolish, baseless argument. What else do you need? An eye in the sky? http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/image/astro/hst_hourglass_nebula.jpg
There ya go. What will it take to make you realize?? God ripping the sky open like a curtain and stepping out in physical form? Honestly, you people need to wake up.



Naughty Nurse said:
You seem to be implying (correct me if I'm wrong) that everything happens for a purpose, and that purpose comes from your god. So why does your god want millions of people to starve to death? Millions to die from AIDS / cancer etc?
You're attempting to personify God. The belief in God tends to go hand in hand with the belief in an afterlife. Death from starving or AIDS or cancer is hardly a fraction of a moment when viewing an eternal existence. We ALL die.
 
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T

The Real McCoy

I'm sorry Naughty Nurse, I just realized you were a socialist. I long ago found it impossible to rationally argue with the vastly tangled web of illusions that is the socialist mind.
 

Naughty Nurse

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The Real McCoy said:
I'm sorry Naughty Nurse, I just realized you were a socialist. I long ago found it impossible to rationally argue with the vastly tangled web of illusions that is the socialist mind.
:rofl A person who believes in a fictional deity referring to anybody as illusioned is too funny for words!
 
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