A question for athiests

[The Real McCoy]

:rofl A person who believes in a fictional deity referring to anybody as illusioned is too funny for words!

Over 4 billion people believe in a god. You and your kind, however, are a minority and with good reason.

 

[The Real McCoy]

I'm done with this debate. My initial questions I proposed when I started this thread STILL have not been answered and I see that as further proof of the fallibility of atheistic reasoning.

 

[Befuddled_Stoner]

Offhand, I can think of two differences between living a long, healthy, and honorable (all very subjective terms) life and going postal then killing yourself before being caught; first of all, you wouldn’t be enjoying your life as much as you could (soooo many babes and bongs out there still waiting to be kissed), and secondly it would make a big difference to everybody who you didn’t spatter across the walls.

Yes, all death is ultimately the same thing in the end, but dwelling on your own inevitable demise can be such a buzz-kill. Strange as it may sound, there are subjective differences between a brief orgy of blood and decades with endless potential for godless debauchery, even for us atheists. I could even argue that without all those abnegate preoccupations, we have more reason to live a long and aimless life than those who look forward to dying.

Yep, but why does evolution need a purpose? Awfully self-important to assume that human existence has more evolutionary significance than anything else up or down the chain. For a technical explanation for WHY evolution occurs, you’ll have to look to someone less lazy and hebetudinous; all I remember is something about constant struggle for resources and adaptation to gain an advantage over the competition. Both the environment and the other players guide evolution. I wouldn’t say that anything initiated nature, it’s more the inexorable result of the underlying rules of the universe. I can no more answer how those rules came into being than monotheists can tell us where their gods came from. I think we’ll have to settle for a stalemate on that one.

By the way, us atheists are no more fallible than any other group of people, and even less than some.

 

[Hornburger]

Well, I don't believe in God for a couple of reasons. First of all, just look at human nature. Ever since we were painting on cave walls, we were trying to figure out how everything came to be, so we made up myths and such, which led to a God-like figure(s), which led to religion. I think people came up with religion just to find a simple answer on how everything came to be. Also, they needed an afterlife in order to make a point out of this life; without that, they would live hopelessly. Then there are those similiarities between all those bible stories, between the epic of gilgamesh and the old testament and such...I don't see them as valid because they are soo similiar yet were created for different purposes.

And as for how everything can be so orderly, the human mind makes order out of chaos. It may not just be as orderly as we would like to think. I just don't see how I can believe in a God when their only argument is "the complexity of the universe". I need more evidence than that in order to think that some "great being" exists, I just don't find it logical for such a being TO exist, there are too many parallels and coincidences with human nature and the different stories in religious books.

 

[The Real McCoy]

Ah, the input of a stoner. Your views are more or less irrelevant and I'm not naive in saying that: I used to be one. I smoked on a daily basis for 2 years and some of the dankest nugget on Earth too. While I certainly had some good times, I realized the wastefulness and stupidity of it. I've seen too many friends have their lives go down hill because of pot and they don't even realize the slow disintegration of their mental capacity because of the subtlety of the drug.

It still wouldn't matter in the end whether or not you lived a good life or an abominable one, if what you people preach is true. Most people live for 70 or 80 years give or take, that is NOTHING in the scope of eternity. You continue to miss my point in demonstrating the fallibility of your arguments. If the only dimension we exist on is simply the physical, as the unenlightened believe, then it would NOT matter in the LEAST if someone were to simulataneously launch all the nuclear weapons and wipe all trace of life off the face of the earth (with the possible exception of a few cockroaches.) because the end result would be the same as everyone living a decent life.

And yes, athiest are more fallible than other groups of people because they have NO logical reasoning to back up their claims. NONE whatsoever. One moment, you people preach that God does not exist without being able to back up your claims and then in another moment, when something out of the ordinary happens, you subconsciously shout things like "Oh my God!" Fools.

 

[The Real McCoy]

And as for how everything can be so orderly, the human mind makes order out of chaos. It may not just be as orderly as we would like to think. I just don't see how I can believe in a God when their only argument is "the complexity of the universe". I need more evidence than that in order to think that some "great being" exists, I just don't find it logical for such a being TO exist, there are too many parallels and coincidences with human nature and the different stories in religious books.

If what you say is true then you've cancelled your own argument out. You're basically claiming the human mind is no different than this chaos around us. The brain is physical energy and matter, no different than the rest of the universe. If this is chaos, then this "logic" you use to disprove the existence of God is not ordered logic but chaos as well. How are you to rely on your own logic unless it is not ordered?

As for the Bible and other religious texts written by man along with religions organized by man, while they demonstrate many universal truths, they also possess too many inconsistincies and contradictions. People get too caught up on specifics and fail to see the bigger picture. The knowledge needed to succeed in life does not need to be found in a book, but can rather be found in each of our hearts.

 

[OnionCollection]

To those who do not believe in God and an afterlife, I propose this question: what difference would it make if someone were to lead a long, healthy, honorable life or if they went on a murderous rampage (Columbine for example) and then committed suicide? Is death not all the same in the end? Why exist in the first place?

One results in the murder of countless individuals and the suicide of the perpetrator, the other results in the natural death of one

One results in tainting the legacy of the perpetrator, the other results in a good legacy of the person.

If a vegetarian is going to heaven anyway, why not eat meat during their life? The vegetation will answer: because I don't want to.

Here's a question for you: If you didn't believe in God and an afterlife would you rape, murder and steal? Is that an urge you have which your religion supresses?

And do you people honestly believe in purposless evolution? I'm not saying evolution doesn't exist because it does, clear as day. But WHY does it happen? What guides it? Nature? What initiated nature?

Why does there have to be a reason?

 

[The Real McCoy]

One results in the murder of countless individuals and the suicide of the perpetrator, the other results in the natural death of one

One results in tainting the legacy of the perpetrator, the other results in a good legacy of the person.

I'm still hearing the same illogical arguing. Once again, what does the legacy matter if there is nothing more beyond life. A tainted legacy is no different than an honorable one in the absolute end atheists advocate. The existence of the human race is finite. An any finite amount of time, be it 70 years or 5 billion years, is still NOTHING in the scope of eternity.

If a vegetarian is going to heaven anyway, why not eat meat during their life? The vegetation will answer: because I don't want to.

I'm sorry, I don't see what this has to do with the topic. Please elaborate.

Here's a question for you: If you didn't believe in God and an afterlife would you rape, murder and steal? Is that an urge you have which your religion supresses?

Not necessarily. I don't believe in absolute degrees of right and wrong, but rather different degrees. I doubt I would EVER commit any of those 3 crimes you listed (with the exception of stealing in a time of desperation) but before I believed in God, I committed plenty of other transgressions. I've now learned to suppress more and more of the urges that these shortcomings stem from and have thus bettered my own existence.

Why does there have to be a reason?

If threre isn't any reason, then nothing that you or I or anybody says or does is truly important.

 

[Hornburger]

If what you say is true then you've cancelled your own argument out. You're basically claiming the human mind is no different than this chaos around us. The brain is physical energy and matter, no different than the rest of the universe. If this is chaos, then this "logic" you use to disprove the existence of God is not ordered logic but chaos as well. How are you to rely on your own logic unless it is not ordered?

As for the Bible and other religious texts written by man along with religions organized by man, while they demonstrate many universal truths, they also possess too many inconsistincies and contradictions. People get too caught up on specifics and fail to see the bigger picture. The knowledge needed to succeed in life does not need to be found in a book, but can rather be found in each of our hearts.

Well, yes, and that is why we must use our best guess and probability to discover the truth, however distorted our thinking may be. Because our mind orders the universe, it can be seen as distorting the chaos the prevails within it. This "chaotic logic" is all we have to rely on in order to interpret the world around us, and we have no choice but use such a mind in order to give us our understandings.

And in order to discover the truth, there needs to be sufficient evidence to prove that there is a God. Until then, I still see the human need to explain the world around us and our need for a life after this one as the reason why religion exists, not because their teachings are true.

 

[OnionCollection]

I'm still hearing the same illogical arguing. Once again, what does the legacy matter if there is nothing more beyond life. A tainted legacy is no different than an honorable one in the absolute end atheists advocate.

To be picky your question is really about belief in an afterlife, and not atheism. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in any Gods. So an atheist can believe in an afterlife. Alternatively there is nothing to say that a theist must believe in an afterlife. Someone who believes in one or more Gods could believe that death is the end of their existance.

Even a theist who believes in an afterlife doesn't necessarily believe they will be judged in that afterlife. So your question would be partially relevant to them too. Why should they care if they murder and kill themselves if they won't be judged for it?

A tainted legacy is no different than an honorable one in the absolute end atheists advocate

So you say. But an atheist who believed in an absolute end could disagree. They might be concerned about how others will think of them when they are gone.

Here's an analogy:

You have lived in a small village for many years. Everyone has got to know you but it is time to move on. You have said goodbye to them all and are walking about 1 mile from the village never to see them again.

You are passing a glasshouse that everyone back in the town loves. Realising that you will never see any of them again you realise you could smash the glasshouse windows without any consequences.

Now there are 4 reasons why you would not want to do this:

1) You are worried about being held accountable for what you have done

In this case lets guarantee that you won't be held accountable. Noone will see you do it, by the time they find out you will be long gone, and you are guaranteed never to run into anyone that has anything to do with the town ever again.

2) You don't want to feel guilty about it afterwards

In this case lets guarantee that you won't by having a convenient drug that makes you forget what you have done afterwards. You can smash the windows and won't feel guilty afterwards.

At this point you are in the equivilent position of a person who doesn't believe in an afterlife. You believe you will not be held accountable for your actions, and you also believe you will not remember those actions afterwards.

But there are more reasons why you would not do it:

3) You don't want the people you like who live in the town to be upset, even if you won't know they are upset.

This is a very important reason why a person who doesn't believe in an afterlife might nevertheless care about the way they lead their life.

4) You simply don't want to do it because you will only feel discomfort while vandalising someone's hard work

Out of all the reasons this is the reason why a person hopefully shouldn't commit murder - They should be instinctively against doing it. If a person wants to commit murder - that is the problem right there - they want to do it. A moral person shouldn't even want to do it. If the only reason they don't do it is because they fear the consequences, then I would be worried being around that person in case those consequences were taken away.

Not necessarily. I don't believe in absolute degrees of right and wrong, but rather different degrees. I doubt I would EVER commit any of those 3 crimes you listed (with the exception of stealing in a time of desperation)

Right okay, so now you can see why an atheist would not want to do those things either. It doesn't matter what they think about an afterlife, they simply won't want to commit those crimes (with the exception you gave of course)

If threre isn't any reason, then nothing that you or I or anybody says or does is truly important.

That's nihilism not atheism

 

[Cloud9]

Can an agnostic join this discussion?

I'm curious, if you believe in God, and believe that the Bible is the word of God, then I have a question. An atheist is one who does not believe, an agnostic is one who is unsure of the existence of God, a theist is one who believes.

What do you call one who might or does believe, but questions God's morality? As in the following passages from the Bible:

God in the Bible - one that condones rape, murder, slavery.

Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NAB)
Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)
Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13 NAB) (Ironically, 25-50% of priests today are homosexuals http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051112/...NlYwMlJVRPUCUl
)
Death for Hitting Dad (Exodus 21:15 NAB) and I thought I was tough on my kids...
Death for Adultery (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT) - talk about a God with an insecurity complex, sounds like more like my ex than God.
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
Death for Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
Kill Brats (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)
God Kills the Curious (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)
God Will Kill Children (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Kill Men, Women, and Children (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
God Kills all the First Born of Egypt (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)
Kill Old Men and Young Women (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
God Will Kill the Children of Sinners (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
More Rape and Baby Killing (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
Mass Murder (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)
You Have to Kill (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB), (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT), (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT), (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT), (Judges 20:48 NAB),
Kill Your Neighbors (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

Slavery: (No wonder the very religious, slave condoning South likes to go Bible thumping) (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT), (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT), (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT), (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB), (Ephesians 6:5 NLT), (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

And this is just the tip of the iceberg. Not even mentioning the numerous contradictions in the Bible or the rampant hipocrisy of believers.

Example:
The Christian attempts to put prayer into schools run directly counter to biblical teachings. Jesus said prayer should be a private affair devoid of public display:

"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room (or closet.) and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret..." (Matthew 6:5-6 RSV).

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpost.php?p=142042&postcount=616

 

[The Real McCoy]

To be picky your question is really about belief in an afterlife, and not atheism. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in any Gods. So an atheist can believe in an afterlife. Alternatively there is nothing to say that a theist must believe in an afterlife. Someone who believes in one or more Gods could believe that death is the end of their existance.

I've never met an atheist who believed in an afterlife or a thiest who didn't, but I guess it's within the realm of possibility.

Even a theist who believes in an afterlife doesn't necessarily believe they will be judged in that afterlife. So your question would be partially relevant to them too. Why should they care if they murder and kill themselves if they won't be judged for it?

Those are some of the most insane people of all. To have the universal human knowledge of good and evil, believe and God and an afterlife and yet assume your actions will go un-judged is outrageously foolish.

So you say. But an atheist who believed in an absolute end could disagree. They might be concerned about how others will think of them when they are gone.

Absolute end doesn't just mean the end of that person, it means the end of humanity.

Out of all the reasons this is the reason why a person hopefully shouldn't commit murder - They should be instinctively against doing it. If a person wants to commit murder - that is the problem right there - they want to do it. A moral person shouldn't even want to do it. If the only reason they don't do it is because they fear the consequences, then I would be worried being around that person in case those consequences were taken away.

That's nihilism not atheism

But it is inherently a byproduct of an atheistic belief. If there were no reason behind everything, then there would be no reason behind the words you speak and the words and actions of anybody else.



Like I've said countless times already: atheists cannot rationally back up their claims that there is no God, you all fall into the same logical loop.

 

[The Real McCoy]

Well, yes, and that is why we must use our best guess and probability to discover the truth, however distorted our thinking may be. Because our mind orders the universe, it can be seen as distorting the chaos the prevails within it. This "chaotic logic" is all we have to rely on in order to interpret the world around us, and we have no choice but use such a mind in order to give us our understandings.

But we don't have "chaotic logic", we have logical logic. It is what allows us to debate this in first place, on the basis that there is a TRUTH. The more you argue this, the more you submit to this universal truth.

And in order to discover the truth, there needs to be sufficient evidence to prove that there is a God. Until then, I still see the human need to explain the world around us and our need for a life after this one as the reason why religion exists, not because their teachings are true.

What more evidence do you need?!

 

[The Real McCoy]

Can an agnostic join this discussion?

I'm curious, if you believe in God, and believe that the Bible is the word of God, then I have a question. An atheist is one who does not believe, an agnostic is one who is unsure of the existence of God, a theist is one who believes.

What do you call one who might or does believe, but questions God's morality?

I would call that person normal.

God in the Bible - one that condones rape, murder, slavery.

Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NAB)
Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)
Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13 NAB) (Ironically, 25-50% of priests today are homosexuals http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051112/...NlYwMlJVRPUCUl
)
Death for Hitting Dad (Exodus 21:15 NAB) and I thought I was tough on my kids...
Death for Adultery (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT) - talk about a God with an insecurity complex, sounds like more like my ex than God.
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
Death for Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
Kill Brats (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)
God Kills the Curious (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)
God Will Kill Children (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Kill Men, Women, and Children (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
God Kills all the First Born of Egypt (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)
Kill Old Men and Young Women (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
God Will Kill the Children of Sinners (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
More Rape and Baby Killing (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
Mass Murder (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)
You Have to Kill (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB), (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT), (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT), (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT), (Judges 20:48 NAB),
Kill Your Neighbors (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)
Slavery: (No wonder the very religious, slave condoning South likes to go Bible thumping) (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT), (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT), (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT), (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB), (Ephesians 6:5 NLT), (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

And this is just the tip of the iceberg. Not even mentioning the numerous contradictions in the Bible or the rampant hipocrisy of believers.

Example:
The Christian attempts to put prayer into schools run directly counter to biblical teachings. Jesus said prayer should be a private affair devoid of public display:

"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room (or closet.) and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret..." (Matthew 6:5-6 RSV).

It's noteworthy that most of thses passages occur in the insanity that are the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy, directly after the 10 commandments (commandments like "Thou shall not kill") were established.

The things Jesus said in the new testament contradict most everything God supposedly said in the Old Testament. I've also wondered what a televised debate for the election of universal ruler between God running as the Republican and Jesus running as the Democrat would be like. :duel

 

[OnionCollection]

Those are some of the most insane people of all. To have the universal human knowledge of good and evil, believe and God and an afterlife and yet assume your actions will go un-judged is outrageously foolish.

Some deists believe in an afterlife and a creator god who made the universe, but is not interested in humans.

Absolute end doesn't just mean the end of that person, it means the end of humanity.

If humanity was ending then I wouldn't be concerned of what people thought of me when I was gone, but I still wouldn't feel inclined to murder. it might not ultimately matter, but it would matter to me at the time.

"That's nihilism not atheism"

But it is inherently a byproduct of an atheistic belief. If there were no reason behind everything, then there would be no reason behind the words you speak and the words and actions of anybody else.

Why does a man who is not starving go fishing? He is just catching fish and then releasing them back into the river. Such behavior could be said to be ultimately meaningless and purposeless. But that man has his own reasons for doing it. He did it because he enjoyed it. That's his reason. It doesn't matter if he doesn't see, understand or know of an ultimate reason for the universe and existance. Even if that were the case it doesn't mean that nothing matters to him, or that he finds nothing is important.

Like I've said countless times already: atheists cannot rationally back up their claims that there is no God, you all fall into the same logical loop.

Most atheists don't claim there is no God, they just don't have a positive belief in one.

 

[The Real McCoy]

Some deists believe in an afterlife and a creator god who made the universe, but is not interested in humans.

Then why create humans?

If humanity was ending then I wouldn't be concerned of what people thought of me when I was gone, but I still wouldn't feel inclined to murder. it might not ultimately matter, but it would matter to me at the time.

You might not but that doesn't apply to everybody. The purpose of my initial question, was to bring light to the fact that in the eyes of atheists (or maybe I should say "those who disbelieve in the afterlife"), there is no justice, no difference between a suicidal rampage murderer and someone who lives a good, honorable life in the ultimate end.

Why does a man who is not starving go fishing? He is just catching fish and then releasing them back into the river. Such behavior could be said to be ultimately meaningless and purposeless. But that man has his own reasons for doing it. He did it because he enjoyed it. That's his reason. It doesn't matter if he doesn't see, understand or know of an ultimate reason for the universe and existance. Even if that were the case it doesn't mean that nothing matters to him, or that he finds nothing is important.

Just because he doesn't see, understand or know of an ultimate reason in the universe does not mean it does not exist. Of course he finds things important, as everybody does. However, if he were to deny a reason behind everything, he would be in contradiction with his own rationality.

Most atheists don't claim there is no God, they just don't have a positive belief in one.

Then they would be agnostics, not atheists.

 

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

Then why create humans?





You might not but that doesn't apply to everybody. The purpose of my initial question, was to bring light to the fact that in the eyes of atheists (or maybe I should say "those who disbelieve in the afterlife"), there is no justice, no difference between a suicidal rampage murderer and someone who lives a good, honorable life in the ultimate end.





Just because he doesn't see, understand or know of an ultimate reason in the universe does not mean it does not exist. Of course he finds things important, as everybody does. However, if he were to deny a reason behind everything, he would be in contradiction with his own rationality.





Then they would be agnostics, not atheists.

Agnostics claim not to know either way: true or false. You can be atheist and have no belief because atheism means a-theism, or "without god or no god." Atheists can either not believe it exists or care less otherwise and live without or with no god. If you don't need God and thus live your life w/out said God, you are atheist. Atheism, colloquially, has been pushed also to mean disbelief or lack of belief in anything supernatural.

Ironically, Agnosticism is really just a form of atheism, since they're without god.

 

[Befuddled_Stoner]

As you stand in the absolute certainty of your faith and cast aspersions on the logic of those who have rejected it, I have to wonder, what is the incontrovertible proof which shows you the folly of us atheists and agnostics? After all, atheists are the ones who insist there is nothing more than meets the eye, while you’re the ones making outlandish claims backed up with nothing more than moldering mores that plagiarize pre-existing superstitions. The onus is on those making fantastical assertions not backed up by empirical observations.

As I scrape out the resin clogging my synapses, the memories I revive remind me of Christianity’s tenuous footing. The Catholic Church was a corrupt, self-aggrandizing theocracy that viscously discouraged differing points of view for centuries, schismed every time there was a disagreement upon how many angels could dance on the point of a pin, and had few qualms about tampering with evidence to back up its point of view. As Cloud9 pointed out, and you’ve acknowledged, the bible is chock full of crazy contradictory ramblings. Whatever in the world could convince you that it’s more accurate than any other holy book that’s gathered some dust and has mustered a few million followers? Atheists are simply people who look at these profligate works and see nothing but the dubious blathering of impressionable cultures desperate to placate their fears of the unknown. Each religion assiduously asserts that they and only they hold the one and only Truth, yet all the evidence they present to back up their claims are equally unconvincing.

Undoubtedly, you’ve had some sort of epiphany or revelation to affirm Christ as your one true savior and all that, but how do you know that your experience wasn’t Jehovah or Odin or Zeus or Zen trying to show you the Truth? Psychology classes have shown me how easily people unintentionally adapt their memories to coincide with their expectations. Would I be right to assume you were raised on Christianity with much less influence from the religions of other cultures?

Maybe this is getting a bit too esoterically metaphysical, but I feel there are patterns within the entropy of the universe. However, I have no reason or evidence to believe they serve any purpose or are sculpted by any sort of supreme being. I think that belief in god is nothing more than putting a happy little anthropomorphic face on the cold, uncaring and indifferent set of circumstances that were requisite for life on Earth evolving as it did.

*sigh* if only my skill at debate matched my ability to wordsmith…..

 

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

One of the problems non atheists have is they cannot comprehend the burden of proof rests squarely on their shoulders. They are those who are saying a metaphysical being exists; they are positing something postive. In these cases, the denier has no responsibility in the matter whatsoever. The most logical position is to have no belief of existence prior to evidence. God is unparismonious; he is not necessary in your life or to explain anything. The universe can safely be without God as an added, unnecessary entity.

 

[Hornburger]

But we don't have "chaotic logic", we have logical logic. It is what allows us to debate this in first place, on the basis that there is a TRUTH. The more you argue this, the more you submit to this universal truth.

Well, yes, I would agree to that. And through the evidence, or lack of evidence, at hand I think that the truth is...no higher being, but that's just my personal opinion.

What more evidence do you need?!

More than just the "complexity of the universe". It could have happened through the complexity of nature. Why? Because that is how nature works and the laws of physics operate. There doesn't necessarily have to be a reason why. I don't think the complexity of the universe PROVES that there is a God.

 

[OnionCollection]

Then why create humans?

Deists don't necessarily believe the creator of the universe also created humans.

You might not but that doesn't apply to everybody. The purpose of my initial question, was to bring light to the fact that in the eyes of atheists (or maybe I should say "those who disbelieve in the afterlife"), there is no justice, no difference between a suicidal rampage murderer and someone who lives a good, honorable life in the ultimate end.

There might be no ultimate justice, and no ultimate difference between a suicidal rampage murderer and someone who lives a good, honorable life. But that doesn't mean there isn't a difference at all.

You could also point out that to such a person there is no ultimate difference between putting their hand in fire and burning it, and not putting their hand in the fire. But this doesn't mean there isn't a difference at all, and that they are being irrational to choose not to put their hand in fire.

Just because he doesn't see, understand or know of an ultimate reason in the universe does not mean it does not exist.

I agree. But clearly knowing of an ultimate reason is not important for him.

Of course he finds things important, as everybody does. However, if he were to deny a reason behind everything, he would be in contradiction with his own rationality.

If he were denying a reason then perhaps that would contradict rationality. But he isn't denying a reason, he just doesn't believe in one. I don't believe in ghosts, but that doesn't mean I deny they exist - how could I possibly know for sure?

Then they would be agnostics, not atheists.

Agnostics are atheists. Atheism simply means lack of belief in a God. Agnostics lack belief in a God.

 

[The Real McCoy]

This debate is obviously going nowhere except back and forth so I'll bid you all good day. :2wave:

 

[Cloud9]

I would call that person normal.


A person that questions God's immorality is normal? I thought blasphemeous was the preferred term.


It's noteworthy that most of thses passages occur in the insanity that are the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy, directly after the 10 commandments (commandments like "Thou shall not kill") were established.

The things Jesus said in the new testament contradict most everything God supposedly said in the Old Testament.

Not a Christian? If you are, then your belief is one of a triune God. Jesus/God contradicting Himself? Can't be. God doesn't make mistakes.

More questions:

1. If Adam and Eve were the beginning, then wouldn't children that follow be the product of incest? Does that mean God condones incest? Couldn't God in His infinite power have created more people to prevent the case of incest?

2. Do you believe that God condones rape, murder, slavery as stated in the Bible? (You can look most of these entries in Biblegateway.com)

You've not addressed each of these so I'll repost.

Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NAB)
Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)
Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13 NAB) (Ironically, 25-50% of priests today are homosexuals http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051112/...NlYwMlJVRPUCUl
)
Death for Hitting Dad (Exodus 21:15 NAB) and I thought I was tough on my kids...
Death for Adultery (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT) - talk about a God with an insecurity complex, sounds like more like my ex than God.
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
Death for Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
Kill Brats (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)
God Kills the Curious (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)
God Will Kill Children (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Kill Men, Women, and Children (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
God Kills all the First Born of Egypt (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)
Kill Old Men and Young Women (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
God Will Kill the Children of Sinners (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
More Rape and Baby Killing (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
Mass Murder (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)
You Have to Kill (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB), (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT), (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT), (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT), (Judges 20:48 NAB),
Kill Your Neighbors (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

Slavery: (No wonder the very religious, slave condoning South likes to go Bible thumping) (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT), (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT), (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT), (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB), (Ephesians 6:5 NLT), (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

3. Do you believe that there should be no public prayer as indicated in the Bible.

"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room (or closet.) and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret..." (Matthew 6:5-6 RSV).

Problem with the Bible is all the meaning lost in the numerous translations - Bible history - http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-en...tory/#timeline

 

[GarzaUK]

To those who do not believe in God and an afterlife, I propose this question: what difference would it make if someone were to lead a long, healthy, honorable life or if they went on a murderous rampage (Columbine for example) and then committed suicide? Is death not all the same in the end? Why exist in the first place?

And do you people honestly believe in purposless evolution? I'm not saying evolution doesn't exist because it does, clear as day. But WHY does it happen? What guides it? Nature? What initiated nature?

The difference is that good atheists have good consciences, bad ones have bad consciences. And I could say the same about Christains for that matter. Why do we exist? Does Christainity have this answer? I mean no disrespect, but if Christains know the meaning of live they have been holding out.

Science still has to answer alot of questions, that doesn't mean it won't answer them in the future, it probably won't answer everything and I'm glad. The fact is there is no proof of a higher being, fair play if you believe in it - I would never belittle anyone's religion, but it's not for me - too many rules that contradict each other.

Although Jesus preaches forgiveness and love I rarely see a difference between athesists and christains. Why is that?

 

[The Real McCoy]

*sigh* You've needlessly dragged me back in to this...

A person that questions God's immorality is normal? I thought blasphemeous was the preferred term.

That's not what I meant. A person that questions the God portrayed in the Bible, with it's countless contradictions, is normal.

Not a Christian? If you are, then your belief is one of a triune God. Jesus/God contradicting Himself? Can't be. God doesn't make mistakes.

True, God doesn't make mistakes. Which logically leads us to the conclusion that something isn't right about the Bible.

More questions:

1. If Adam and Eve were the beginning, then wouldn't children that follow be the product of incest? Does that mean God condones incest? Couldn't God in His infinite power have created more people to prevent the case of incest?

Most supporters of scripture hold the belief that incest in the beginning of humanity was acceptable. Also, the reason why incest is presently considered abominable is mainly due to the deformities produced in offspring. There is a scientfic explination for this in that when family members mate, all the imperfect, recessive genes they share (that would normally be cancelled out by dominant ones) merge, skyrocketing the probability for freak offspring. If the story of Adam & Eve is true, that they were created perfectly, and incest within the first couple generations of humans would not have been an issue.

2. Do you believe that God condones rape, murder, slavery as stated in the Bible? (You can look most of these entries in Biblegateway.com)

No I don't. Again, I never claimed the Judeo-Christian God is the true creator of the universe.

You've not addressed each of these so I'll repost.

Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NAB)
Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)
Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13 NAB) (Ironically, 25-50% of priests today are homosexuals http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051112/...NlYwMlJVRPUCUl
)
Death for Hitting Dad (Exodus 21:15 NAB) and I thought I was tough on my kids...
Death for Adultery (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT) - talk about a God with an insecurity complex, sounds like more like my ex than God.
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
Death for Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
Kill Brats (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)
God Kills the Curious (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)
God Will Kill Children (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Kill Men, Women, and Children (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
God Kills all the First Born of Egypt (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)
Kill Old Men and Young Women (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
God Will Kill the Children of Sinners (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
More Rape and Baby Killing (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
Mass Murder (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)
You Have to Kill (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB), (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT), (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT), (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT), (Judges 20:48 NAB),
Kill Your Neighbors (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

Slavery: (No wonder the very religious, slave condoning South likes to go Bible thumping) (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT), (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT), (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT), (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB), (Ephesians 6:5 NLT), (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

Wrong, I did in fact address those verses when I acknowledged the numerous contradictions in the Bible and also when I said "It's noteworthy that most of thses passages occur in the insanity that are the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy, directly after the 10 commandments (commandments like "Thou shall not kill") were established."

3. Do you believe that there should be no public prayer as indicated in the Bible.

"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room (or closet.) and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret..." (Matthew 6:5-6 RSV).

Yes, I do.

Problem with the Bible is all the meaning lost in the numerous translations - Bible history - http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-en...tory/#timeline

Yes, many things from the orignal texts have been lost in translation. I personally believe if God were to actually have his word written down by man, it would be absolute and translation would have no effect. Also, translation errors cannot possibly account for the blatant black vs. white hypocricy that exists in the Bible.


Now can I please be left alone on this matter? This argument became pointless long ago.