A one-state solution for Palestinians and Israelis

[Goshin]

Re: Should the Palestinians and Israelis form one state?

Of course they should. Immediately after that is accomplished, we should see about getting cats and mice living together in the same box, rejoin North and South Korea, and for an encore we can uncrack an egg.







(/irony)

 

[Helix]

Re: Should the Palestinians and Israelis form one state?

Moderator's Warning:

Threads merged.

 

[mbig]

False.
YOU/Rocket said:
"..It still doesn't answer why Jews are special. They get a homeland, Palestinians get what the Israelis don't want, Abkhaz and Tibetans get ****ed over..."

and That wrong-headedness is what I debunked.
Your classic insinuation of "special Jews".
It showed a chip on the shoulder and, again, Grotesque historical Ignorance.
Palestinians Were offered a state!

Also again... and more egregious:
justabbba not only ducked Donald's #30 and my #32, but now DDD's #70.. AND ido's #71.
When someone can't even address so many replies, he should fold the tent.

I don't care what bubba did or didn't do. I'm not him.

That was not addressed to you.. obviously.

Yes, Palestine was offered a state from what Israel no longer wanted. Basically like I said.

This is as [non] knowledgeable as your last.
So now you've learned Palestine WAS offered a state, but throw in the completely BaseLess, and equally ignorant, "from what Israel no longer wanted".
Who knows what you're even talking about. The year 2000 Barak offer?
Palestine WAS offered a state ORIGINALLY, in 1948, at the SAME time Israel was: drawn up by the U.N.
Those states drawn up based on population demographics, with the "nobody wanted" Negev Desert making up HALF of what Israel got.

But yeah, I think Palestinians should be treated like human beings therefore I'm anti-semitic. I forgot the rules of the ME forum. You basically believe that Israel (Jews) are more deserving of a state than many other ethnic groups. I just argue that they are equally people, and equally deserving.

Your now repeated "special Jews" intimation and Lying/Ignorant claims was what tinged your post, not any 'equality'.


This is a painfully difficult/Laughable discussion because you have ZERO knowledge of this conflict and its short history.
You just make up stuff to fit your transparent bias.

 

[rocket88]

That was not addressed to you.. obviously.

This is as [non] knowledgeable as your last.
So now you've learned Palestine WAS offered a state, but throw in the completely BaseLess, and equally ignorant, "from what Israel no longer wanted".
Who knows what you're even talking about. The year 2000 Barak offer?
Palestine WAS offered a state ORIGINALLY, in 1948, at the SAME time Israel was: drawn up by the U.N.
Those states drawn up based on population demographics, with the "nobody wanted" Negev Desert making up HALF of what Israel got.


Your now repeated "special Jews" intimation and Lying/Ignorant claims was what tinged your post, not any 'equality'.


This is a painfully difficult/Laughable discussion because you have ZERO knowledge of this conflict and its short history.
You just make up stuff to fit your transparent bias.

OH, my "intimations." Go join X-Factor in the "I'm going to tell you what you really mean" club. It's painfully difficult because you insist on my "transparent anti-semitism" when it's not there. So you just keep harping on it until it seems true. Classic Bull****ter tactic.

The last time Palestinians would have gotten a state, what was it made up of? Was Israel giving anything they wanted to settle? Fine, they could have had it and rejected it. I understand that, it's just your insistence on painting me as a Nazi that makes things laughable. Unlike you, I refuse to see one side as wonderfully perfect. That's what makes it a sticky situation and a problem that exists to this day.

My question - which, by the way, YOU are dodging is this - why do Jews get a homeland and other ethnic groups don't? Simple question that you won't answer because you're more interested in painting me as an anti-semite. You still won't answer - next post will go further down the "Rocket's final solution" path.

 

[mbig]

OH, my "intimations." Go join X-Factor in the "I'm going to tell you what you really mean" club. It's painfully difficult because you insist on my "transparent anti-semitism" when it's not there. So you just keep harping on it until it seems true. Classic Bull****ter tactic.

Not BS at all.
I quoted YOU quite fairly.
You [classically] fabricated stuff to make the Jews "special".
A Jewish State was in the cards since before the British Victory over the Ottoman in WW1.
They did have to decide who got what/who should rule where.

The last time Palestinians would have gotten a state, what was it made up of? Was Israel giving anything they wanted to settle? Fine, they could have had it and rejected it. I understand that, it's just your insistence on painting me as a Nazi that makes things laughable. Unlike you, I refuse to see one side as wonderfully perfect. That's what makes it a sticky situation and a problem that exists to this day.

Huh?
So you have ZERO answer to my pointing out that Israel was not "special": the Palestinians Were already offered a state and they were offered it ORIGINALLY/at the SAME Time as the Jews: 1948.
They turned it down in favor of going for ALL of Palestine.
They lost.
Again, Your repLies are so breathtakingly Ignorant, it's impossible to 'debate'.
Your whole original point was ridiculous because you DIDN'T even know that basic fact!
Now you carry on/Bluff with the same attitude as if you are still somehow righteous instead of Corrected/Humiliated.

My question - which, by the way, YOU are dodging is this - why do Jews get a homeland and other ethnic groups don't? Simple question that you won't answer because you're more interested in painting me as an anti-semite. You still won't answer - next post will go further down the "Rocket's final solution" path.

I never dodge anything. I don't have to.

Again, The Jews got a state because the Ottoman breakup presented the opportunity for self-rule for many.
This doesn't happen that often, but the land did have to be divided onto smaller units than the former 'Ottoman Empire'.
Many did get states at that point/some didn't.
Jews got a smaller state than was anticipated because of pro-Arab bias between the World Wars.
Nevertheless, they accepted only Half of Palestine (and 13% of the British mandate) while the 'Palestinians' rejected one.
Are we clear yet?
You obviously didn't even know that!
MY question:
How may Ethnicites have turned DOWN a state going to War for a bigger one instead, Lost, and still deserve one?

Do all ethnic groups deserve a state?
A humongous/complicated question.
Perhaps/Probably/Maybe.
Many states, including Arab ones, are breaking apart because they are "tribes with flags." (Sudan, former Yugoslavia, Soviet Republics/-stans)
So we may indeed have world with Thousands++ of countries instead of 200.
Is the American South an Ethnic group?
Southwest Hispanics/"Aztlan"? (look it up)
What about the Druze or Bedouin, or other nomadic peoples who live in Arab states?
A cast of of Ten Thousand ethnicities.
I didn't catch your support of ANY others except the 'anti-Jew' palestinians.

Of course, some people, including Arabs, don't/Didn't previously believe the Palestinians were distinct enough from other Arabs to be one.
When the Arabs (Egypt/Jordan) controlled/'occupied' the territory designated by the Partition as 'Palestine' from 1948-1967 they did NOT allow a Palestine.
Jordan, in fact, Annexed the West Bank.
BTW, who are 'Jordanians'?
They are a 70% 'palestinian' state.
So how will we break up Jordan?
the PLO attempted to topple King Hussein in 1970 and make Jordan a 'palestinian' state.
You support that too?
LOL, you would know as much about that as you do about the content of Black Holes.


Unlike say, Kurds, Jews, or Tibetans, they are not a distinct Racial, Lingual, etc group.
Nonetheless, they have become a people and I support a Palestinian state.
I support a Free Tibetan State.

I support a Kurdistan and I am about the only person here who mentions it Regularly.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle-east/110988-kurdistan-can-model-democracy-troubled-region.html
What about YOU?
25 Million truly distinct Kurds, who unlike palestinians, were never offered anything.
Where are YOUR posts on this Much Larger injustice?

Nevertheless, and again:
I have oft laid out MY solution to the I-P conflict which includes TWO states.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle-east/72245-israel-palestine-solutions-poll.html

So when you Talk about exclusivity of/"special" Jews in reference to me, you are demonstrably WRONG.
All your posts are Ridiculous, breathtakingly Ignorant, chip-on-the-shoulder crap.

 

[rocket88]

Learn how to read, see my above posts about Kurds, Abkhaz, Tibetans....then get back to me about how I only talk about Palestinians because I hate Jews.

Granted, this would wreck your whole mission to out me as anti-Semitic.

 

[ecofarm]

Learn how to read, see my above posts about Kurds, Abkhaz, Tibetans....then get back to me about how I only talk about Palestinians because I hate Jews.

Granted, this would wreck your whole mission to out me as anti-Semitic.

One thing we might want to consider in our zeal to grant nationhood status to various ethnic groups in a re-drawing of the staggeringly stupid colonial borders is which groups have terrorist governments. We might want to fix that part first, so as not to endorse such tyranny.

 

[rocket88]

One thing we might want to consider in our zeal to grant nationhood status to various ethnic groups in a re-drawing of the staggeringly stupid colonial borders is which groups have terrorist governments. We might want to fix that part first, so as not to endorse such tyranny.

Perhaps, but terrorist governments pop up even in states that were already sovereign. See Iran, Syria, Uganda (under Idi Amin)...So creating states doesn't guarantee that a terrorist government won't come to power in the future.

I'm just saying, let's assume we get Hamas out of power and out of government completely in Gaza. Next government might not be much better.

 

[ecofarm]

Perhaps, but terrorist governments pop up even in states that were already sovereign. See Iran, Syria, Uganda (under Idi Amin)...So creating states doesn't guarantee that a terrorist government won't come to power in the future.

I'm just saying, let's assume we get Hamas out of power and out of government completely in Gaza. Next government might not be much better.

I consider sovereignty to be property of the people and not any government. Palestinians are not a sovereign people, there's no democracy with human rights. To create a sovereign government seems absurd; I can't go for that. A nation is a people not a government. Syria is not sovereign today. Assad might be, but the people are not.

The distinction could be made between a sovereign state and a sovereign nation. I'm not interested in a state's sovereignty, I don't believe that's freedom.

 

[CJ 2.0]

Another proposal, which seems very similar but comes from the Israeli side and doesn't suffer from the same delusions about what the Palestinians' real intentions are:

carolinglick | The Israeli Solution: A One-State Plan for Peace in the Middle East

Basically, observes that (1) The Palestinians' population statistics are all bunk (2) the Palestinians can still be managed inside Israel and (3) the international community would not really do anything about, Israel should disband the PA, annex Judea and Samaria and extend permanent residence status and an opportunity to apply for citizenship to all Palestinians living there. The Palestinians there would be free to live anywhere in Israel and there would be nothing but a single civil government authority over the entire area.

While the author actually recognizes the real (destructionist) intentions that drive Palestinian national identity and aspirations, she makes a pretty good case that all of this can best be managed with the WB Palestinians inside of Israel instead of as part of the PA and its war machine.

While this doesn't do anything to address Gaza or the 60 billion Palestinian "refugees", and would not end the conflict between Israel and the wider Arab world (since that will never really end anyways), it does pretty neatly fix the problem Israel is facing and will force the various anti-Israel folks to figure out some other way to cast aspirations on Jews looking to exercise self determination in their homeland.

Not sure how realistic it is, but the analysis starts by recognizing reality as it actually exists, which is exceedingly rare when it comes to IP issues.

Definitely worth a read for anyone who is interested.