9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity[W:56]

[radioman]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

Why is your secondhand (at best) information good and mine is not?

-------------
Well, OWO, we never get a good answer on this one.
Look, Menard--if you're still around--most of us don't automatically believe everything the gov't tells us.
It's just that the 911 truther movement doesn't give us anything more convincing.
I know you doubt Bazant and the PM guys, but their evidence seems logical to most Americans.

 

[Menard_K]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

-------------
Well, OWO, we never get a good answer on this one.
Look, Menard--if you're still around--most of us don't automatically believe everything the gov't tells us.
It's just that the 911 truther movement doesn't give us anything more convincing.
I know you doubt Bazant and the PM guys, but their evidence seems logical to most Americans.

"evidence seems logical to most Americans." this is what is so seriously disturbing
you see the stuff spewed by the MSM is bad enough in general, HOWEVER,
there are bits about 9/11/2001 that would require violations of the laws of physics
if one is to accept the official story.

BTW: do you actually believe Popular Mechanics? really,
me personally, I will NEVER buy one of their magazines ever again.
that is how bad the "debunking" fiasco is.

 

[OldWorldOrder]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

"evidence seems logical to most Americans." this is what is so seriously disturbing
you see the stuff spewed by the MSM is bad enough in general, HOWEVER,
there are bits about 9/11/2001 that would require violations of the laws of physics
if one is to accept the official story.

BTW: do you actually believe Popular Mechanics? really,
me personally, I will NEVER buy one of their magazines ever again.
that is how bad the "debunking" fiasco is.

Why is your secondhand (at best) information good and mine is not?

 

[Menard_K]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

This made no sense. Doubly so when you're obviously referring to the movie Santa Clause with Tim Allen, which is incontrovertibly real, because I've had the displeasure of having watched it with my own eyes- the definition of firsthand.

So did you just again abandon the argument you were on? I asked you to focus and you're not. Can you at least focus on trying to focus? Why is your secondhand (at best) information good and mine is not?

First of all, it was NOT my intent to reference any movie.
and as I have attempted to make the point before, the information available that does
not violate the laws of physics is good, the allegations by our "leaders" & the MSM
that are totally unsupported by anything other than more MSM reports, constitutes
smoke screen tactics, all smoke & mirrors.

BTW: what did you think of the question
WHY did the worlds greatest military power FAIL to defend even its own HQ
& on 9/12 Donald Rumsfeld still had a JOB ..... whats up with that?
as a taxpayer, do you like what you see?

 

[OldWorldOrder]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

First of all, it was NOT my intent to reference any movie.
and as I have attempted to make the point before, the information available that does
not violate the laws of physics is good, the allegations by our "leaders" & the MSM
that are totally unsupported by anything other than more MSM reports, constitutes
smoke screen tactics, all smoke & mirrors.

But many people who corroborate what I've said aren't in the MSM. So...now what? Why is your secondhand (at best) information good and mine is not?

BTW: what did you think of the question
WHY did the worlds greatest military power FAIL to defend even its own HQ
& on 9/12 Donald Rumsfeld still had a JOB ..... whats up with that?
as a taxpayer, do you like what you see?

The world's greatest military fails at a lot of things. Do you think the convoy that spawned the Jessica Lynch thing was a conspiracy, too? After all, how could the world's greatest military run a convoy that simply GETS LOST? You fall into the problem many conspiracy theorists struggle with: the idea that powerful entities can make mistakes.

You seem to think it's impossible that this great power could have it's headquarters hit with a jet (do you know how close Reagan International is?), but accept that it created a falsehood so transparent that a middle schooler could see through it. You think it's impossible that the Pentagon could've been hit with a jet, but accept that they couldn't even hit it with a jet if they wanted to. It's nonsensical.

 

[Gina]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

Moderator's Warning:

Stick to the topic, which is not each other nor anything outside of the OP.

 

[radioman]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

WHY did the worlds greatest military power FAIL to defend even its own HQ
& on 9/12 Donald Rumsfeld still had a JOB ..... whats up with that?
as a taxpayer, do you like what you see?

----------------
While I wish heads would have rolled, does an incompetent/inept/lying high-level bureaucrat ever get canned?
Especially someone like Rummy, who plays the game as well as anyone.

 

[Menard_K]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

Why is your secondhand (at best) information good and mine is not?

First of all, WE all got to see the same video coverage of the events of 9/11/2001
and so as a starting point, we have that. What bothered me on that day and is still and issue.
is the fact that THREE buildings were destroyed in a manner that can NOT be attributed to chaotic
damage. there had to have been an additional source of energy to make it happen as it did.

& another bit, did you notice the video that shows the south wall of the south tower as its being hit
by what is alleged to be FLT175? Notice the uniformity of penetration, here is a clue, the wall had
some hollow space that is the floor areas, and then the actual decks behind the wall horizontally
and so the alleged airliner would have to not only penetrate the wall, but break up the concrete deck
as the "aircraft" entered the building. The pictures show a very uniform penetration and also for
both the North & South towers the whole aircraft would have to penetrate deep inside, because
the pictures showing the gash made by the alleged aircraft do not show any sign of a tail section
visible in the space.

Please also address the issue, WHY do you think that its impossible to discern 350 milliseconds in
30 fps video? Please enlighten me.....

 

[Menard_K]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

----------------
While I wish heads would have rolled, does an incompetent/inept/lying high-level bureaucrat ever get canned?
Especially someone like Rummy, who plays the game as well as anyone.

So WE THE PEOPLE see no justice, because "that is just how it is" ?
izat it? really?

 

[OldWorldOrder]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

First of all, WE all got to see the same video coverage of the events of 9/11/2001
and so as a starting point, we have that. What bothered me on that day and is still and issue.
is the fact that THREE buildings were destroyed in a manner that can NOT be attributed to chaotic
damage. there had to have been an additional source of energy to make it happen as it did.

That's not firsthand.

& another bit, did you notice the video that shows the south wall of the south tower as its being hit
by what is alleged to be FLT175? Notice the uniformity of penetration, here is a clue, the wall had
some hollow space that is the floor areas, and then the actual decks behind the wall horizontally
and so the alleged airliner would have to not only penetrate the wall, but break up the concrete deck
as the "aircraft" entered the building. The pictures show a very uniform penetration and also for
both the North & South towers the whole aircraft would have to penetrate deep inside, because
the pictures showing the gash made by the alleged aircraft do not show any sign of a tail section
visible in the space.

That's not firsthand.

Please also address the issue, WHY do you think that its impossible to discern 350 milliseconds in
30 fps video? Please enlighten me.....

That's not firsthand.

I'm not going to accept even the idea of secondhand information from you until you do so from me. That's just normal debate procedure.

(OR IS NORMAL DEBATE PROCEDURE A CONSPIRACY SPECIFICALLY MEANT TO COVER FOR 9/11?)

 

[Menard_K]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity


First of all "FIRST HAND" data is NOT the issue, you have twisted the argument around
what is an issue here is the fact that you REFUSE to even consider the FACTS that are
available to anyone who chooses to look. Note the crash of "FLT175" the fact that in the
video, the alleged aircraft breaches the wall and disappears completely inside in < 350 milliseconds
Now this proves conclusively that the MSM LIES, because they presented this to the world
as the crash of a commercial airliner, however it could not possibly be the crash of an airliner.
This bit constitutes a violation of the laws of physics if the official explanation is taken seriously.

 

[OldWorldOrder]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

First of all "FIRST HAND" data is NOT the issue, you have twisted the argument around

You asked if I were there for the confession. Do you know what firsthand and secondhand mean? I can google it for you if you want (if you trust google). If you mean the source is the problem, say so. Be a man, say what you mean.

what is an issue here is the fact that you REFUSE to even consider the FACTS that are
available to anyone who chooses to look. Note the crash of "FLT175" the fact that in the
video, the alleged aircraft breaches the wall and disappears completely inside in < 350 milliseconds
Now this proves conclusively that the MSM LIES, because they presented this to the world
as the crash of a commercial airliner, however it could not possibly be the crash of an airliner.
This bit constitutes a violation of the laws of physics if the official explanation is taken seriously.

Were you crying as you wrote this? I'm not a trained physicist. Why would I take about it like I am? Are you?

Regardless, you're accepting secondhand information as fact. If you can, why can't I?

 

[OldWorldOrder]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

This is funny to read through.

 

[mike2810]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

First of all "FIRST HAND" data is NOT the issue, you have twisted the argument around
what is an issue here is the fact that you REFUSE to even consider the FACTS that are
available to anyone who chooses to look. Note the crash of "FLT175" the fact that in the
video, the alleged aircraft breaches the wall and disappears completely inside in < 350 milliseconds
Now this proves conclusively that the MSM LIES, because they presented this to the world
as the crash of a commercial airliner, however it could not possibly be the crash of an airliner.
This bit constitutes a violation of the laws of physics if the official explanation is taken seriously.

From another thread.
"So if the vids you are using are capturing at 30fps. Then each frame captures 0.033 seconds of time.
Now , you stated you measured that the plane disapeared in 350ms. that is 350/1000. or .00350 time.
how can that be captured with a 30fps camera, when the one frame is only .033seconds in duration?

Either your math or mine is off.
So enlighten me where I am wrong. I am always willing to learn. So maybe I missed something. Seems you would need a higher speed camera than what msm uses to capture news vids.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

First of all "FIRST HAND" data is NOT the issue, you have twisted the argument around
what is an issue here is the fact that you REFUSE to even consider the FACTS that are
available to anyone who chooses to look. Note the crash of "FLT175" the fact that in the
video, the alleged aircraft breaches the wall and disappears completely inside in < 350 milliseconds
Now this proves conclusively that the MSM LIES, because they presented this to the world
as the crash of a commercial airliner, however it could not possibly be the crash of an airliner.
This bit constitutes a violation of the laws of physics if the official explanation is taken seriously.

Why are you trashing my thread with this plane bull****? Don't you have enough threads were this is brought up? Where in my OP does it talk about planes at all?

Are you a disinfo agent? Freakin knock it off!!! Give it a rest for one freakin thread, will ya?

 

[OldWorldOrder]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

You are confused...

Did you want to try this again?

 

[OldWorldOrder]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

You are confused... I never said there was a direct, "you're on the payroll" link. The link is to AL QAEDA... Of which bin Laden was a part, of which the bin Laden family was a supporter. Al Qaeda was the CIA asset. Bin Laden was a part of that. Directly or indirectly, it really doesn't matter.

Paging Occam's Razor...

 

[OldWorldOrder]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

Why are you trashing my thread with this plane bull****? Don't you have enough threads were this is brought up? Where in my OP does it talk about planes at all?

Are you a disinfo agent? Freakin knock it off!!! Give it a rest for one freakin thread, will ya?

Hi, OR. Did you want to defend yourself? Or are you admitting that this is real bad for you?

 

[OldWorldOrder]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

Why are you trashing my thread with this plane bull****? Don't you have enough threads were this is brought up? Where in my OP does it talk about planes at all?

Are you a disinfo agent? Freakin knock it off!!! Give it a rest for one freakin thread, will ya?

Occam's Razor, hey buddy.

 

[davidtaylorjr]

Which is the more likely motive... using the principle of occam's razor...



The criticism is that the following list is far too complicated to apply to the above principle. What follows is an exercise in eliminating assumptions...

Terrorists: They hate us for our liberty. Simple to be sure. Yet under this logic, Santa is the more likely explanation for presents under the tree than numerous trips to stores by parents, ordering online, wrapping, etc.

Neo-cons: a single minded, 30 year effort to position the US as the sole, perpetual, global superpower to secure for all time "American Interests".


I presented the following list in another thread to make this point. In the next post we'll take these point by point and discuss their credibility.

• Let's start with the Bush/bin Laden family connections going back to at least the mid 70s
• At the same time Bush Sr became CIA chief, Salem bin Laden invested in GW Jr's first failed energy company aptly named, Arbusto, and Osama became a CIA asset.
• Osama received guidance and funding in part from another Bush ally, The Saudi Royal Family... I think we all remember Jr kissing the Saudi prince on the lips post 9-11.
• Also during Bush Sr's tenure as CIA director, shady links to a CIA money laundering front for heroin from Afghanistan, BCCI began to be forged.
• Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, et al have not only been implicated, they boast of their involvement in two previous conspiracies, the Halloween Massacre and the Team B disinformation scam perpetrated on congress in the 80s. The noble lie... their stock and trade.
• These same men write a manifesto summarizing their 30 year effort to position the US as the sole superpower to secure "american interests". This 96 page document, the 30 years of deception and singular career goals that led to it, all the lofty goals it aims to reach... is not worth the paper it's printed on without a 9-11 event. Without it, the window of opportunity for sole, perpetual superpower status would soon close and cannot ever be realized. Their life's work wasted, their plan for global military and economic domination missed. This alone is far more motive than can be ascribed to any terrorist.
• One of those resource/business "interests" for nearly twenty years was a pipeline worth several trillion in revenue for it's operators over several decades. This is stated in the RAD document.
• One of the military interests was repositioning our troops from cold war europe to permanent (though at the time non-existent) bases closer to Asia, the only source for a challenge to US military and economic hegemony, China and India. This is also clearly stated in the RAD manifesto.
• Failing economic pressures to constrain rising superpowers, a strong military would be needed to decisively put down any challengers to US global hegemony, even to the point of fighting multiple major theater wars ala WWII. Again, clearly stated in the RAD, again, not worth the paper without an attack.
• Further stated in the RAD document, and in the interest of the neocon agenda of militarizing the US (also clearly stated in RAD), the current highly contested $50 billion defense budget would need to increase to $350 billion to accomplish these goals... again, merely a wish without an attack.
• Cheney, Michael Ledeen and Wolfowitz referred to themselves and the neo-cons as "democratic revolutionaries" and embraced concepts like; the Noble Lie, enter into evil to do good, manipulation of morals within the masses, preemptive war and total war.
• BuCheney not only did nothing concerning terrorism prior to 9-11, they actively put down attempts to address it until the day before the attacks.
• Prior to taking office, while giving terrorism a free pass, the BuCheney admin were drawing up detailed plans to invade Iraq, again, a waste of time without a massive attack... by the terrorists the ignored.
• Every single key critical position was occupied by a core neocon. From airport and WTC security, to our national defense, to the planned exercises that involved every single asset available on the eastern seaboard.
• The day of 9-11, the entire response infrastructure of the most powerful nation in history was brought to it's knees, hands tied, massive confusion in yet another miraculous, unprecedented number of missed opportunities. Hundreds of highly trained personnel couldn't tell which end was up. This infrastructure is designed to work even if there are line of command failures. However, they are bound to obey command directives. Where did that buck stop on 9-11?
• During the attacks, the man in charge of our national defense went MIA for almost an hour... out on the Pentagon lawn playing medic.
• Also during the attacks, the CIC was incommunicado on AF1, then sequestered in a bunker, completely out of the loop.
• Cheney was the only person in direct control of every single aspect of our response. This is NOT his job. Can you imagine Dan Quayle or Al Gore in such a role?
• Within 48 hours it was announced we knew who all 19 hijackers were, despite not being able to produce a passenger manifest listing them, nor a single frame of video showing them in the concourse or boarding the plane.
• At the same time, we were told, two days later, we should ignore wild conspiracy theories and just go shopping.
• We are further told, again and again, by all admin officials, that we must suspend our most patriotic duty, especially in times of crisis, vigilance and skepticism of our gov't and the individuals running it and proclaim the only patriotism is blind support of the admin.
  

• We are also told that not one eyewitness or direct victim is to be given credence, the admin and intel already have it all figured out.
• The only investigation initiated involved structural engineers who admirably volunteered, with a budget 1/10th ($500k) of that immediately given to the Smithsonian ($5m) to collect "artifacts" and items of interest like door knobs. No professional crime scene/disaster investigators were employed, no SOP was followed.
• When the grieving family members of the victims, those that lost the most, those that suffered the only deaths on the Continental US in an act of foreign terrorism, asked, then demanded a proper investigation... they were told no.
• When public pressure rose, the biggest mockery of an official investigation was assembled, again with carefully appointed neocon friendly sycophants.
• Breaking all known precedents, procedures, decorum, sense, Cheney and Bush were allowed to testify together, in private, with no oath and no record. This alone should be enough to worry and spark grave skepticism in every citizen. No record? One could choke down the rest, but no record?
• Following 9-11, the miracle that saved their life's work, the Manifesto of the PNAC RAD document was followed to the letter, and still is.
• All crime scene evidence was either ignored or quickly disposed of in violation of proper investigative procedure.

:roll:

 

[OldWorldOrder]

Nothing? No truthers want to defend this nonsense?

 

[Menard_K]

Nothing? No truthers want to defend this nonsense?

be specific, exactly what "nonsense"

 

[OldWorldOrder]

be specific, exactly what "nonsense"

The embarrassment that envelops what you and Occam's Razor posted towards me in this thread? The systemic wrongness that overarches everything you guys post?

 

[Menard_K]

The embarrassment that envelops what you and Occam's Razor posted towards me in this thread? The systemic wrongness that overarches everything you guys post?

What you posted was general in nature, will you please be specific?
Focus Pinky .... FOCUS .....

 

[OldWorldOrder]

What you posted was general in nature, will you please be specific?
Focus Pinky .... FOCUS .....

lol? How about this: any of the posts in this thread that I've made, that you guys have run away from. Pick one.