9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity[W:56]

[Occam's Razor]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

It's not my opinion. Did you just ask me to prove a negative, though? Hmmm....



Except there's no evidence of him working for them? Hekmatyar did, everyone knows that. That doesn't mean bin Laden did. What would they want from him or he want from them anyway?

The Osama Bin Laden I Know: An Oral History of Al-Qaeda's Leader - Peter L. Bergen - Google Books

The Bin Ladens: An Arabian Family in the American Century - Steve Coll - Google Books

I mean, none of what you quoted even said bin Laden worked for the CIA anyway. So why are you purporting it as a fact? There's zero evidence of it. Who does that?

You are confused... I never said there was a direct, "you're on the payroll" link. The link is to AL QAEDA... Of which bin Laden was a part, of which the bin Laden family was a supporter. Al Qaeda was the CIA asset. Bin Laden was a part of that. Directly or indirectly, it really doesn't matter.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

I bristly at the over use and misuse of the word "proof". A proof comes at the end of a long road of evidences.

Also, the word "truth"... i have little use for. Truth is based on, and often reliant upon belief systems. Facts are not. I am wholly uninterested in anyones truth. The facts are all that matter and whether those facts are corroborative with other facts, or anomalous outliers.

Next, there is no difference in parties, and no change in direction with changes in administration, regardless of party affiliation. Of course it's not just one administration... this goes back over 40 years... but the key central players have remained largely the same.

As for the list of terrorist acts you listed... one must ask, who benefited the most from those attacks? I can easily show that it was not AQ.

Oh... and the Neo-cons.. oh yes my friend... they were former liberals disillusioned with the radical turn the left took in the sixties. But above all else, politically, consistently, throughout their careers... they have been opportunists. Parties do not matter to these fellas... only the ends by whatever means.

I have followed and studied these men for nearly 30 years... there isn't much I don't know about them.

Lastly, I forgot about this thread... it will be a while until I can devote the time to it that it deserves. I have two large projects going right now that will be taking up quite a bit of my time. Most of this stuff I can write off the top of my head, but most will require exhaustive citations and linking. I don't have the time at the moment. Also, sadly, many of the source links I have compiled over the years are no longer active, being more than a decade old (news reports, articles, book quotes etc. So while I can still provide the citations, links may be a problem. And I doubt anyone is willing to venture to their public libraries to fact check me.

On proof, good. On the truth vs facts stuff, just semantics. Truth is based on facts. The sun seemingly comes up in the east daily due to the rotation of the planet in a certain direction as we orbit the sun.. that is the truth, not just from my belief system [ unless you call facts a belief system ].

Who profited the most from the 9 11 attacks? That sounds like it comes from your belief system to me, your "truth". Who benefits the most from a lottery win? Is it all those millions who are doing the contributing to the big pot... or is it the one lucky guy who plunks a single dollar down and lets the machine generate the unlikely right set of numbers? What does that prove?

And the Neocons, sounds like they are anti your truth as well... we are all opportunists of sorts. I am taking advantage of the multiple holes/contradictions in your "reasoning" and arguments... so?

Let me know when you come back to complete... I will be interested to see what you come up with.

 

[OldWorldOrder]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

You are confused...

I'm confused? Me?

I never said there was a direct, "you're on the payroll" link.

At the same time Bush Sr became CIA chief, Salem bin Laden invested in GW Jr's first failed energy company aptly named, Arbusto, and Osama became a CIA asset.

Who's confused again? What do you think an asset is? If you meant al Qaeda, how is my alleged confusion responsible for you typing bin Laden? Anyway, of course there were al qaeda people on the CIA payroll, that's how you get intel: you have moles.

So now you're misrepresenting the things you said in this very thread (maybe lying?) and asking me to prove a negative...wanna know how I can tell you're a truther?

 

[Jango]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

The MSM = Propaganda Machine!

Have you actually seen the headlines and reports that came out of the media after 9/11?

You are aware that the press gets stonewalled just as bad as us normal folk, right? They can ask questions, but the government spokesperson or official they're dealing with does not have to answer. The same goes for documents. They can do FOIA requests until they're blue in the face but the government can stonewall them.

 

[OldWorldOrder]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

Menard didn't want to (or couldn't) post in this thread, but he was nice enough to PM me asking why they interrogated KSM if they didn't need his confession. Because I'm certain other truthers might struggle with that, I'll answer here: they didn't interrogate him to get a confession. The CIA is made up of intelligence agents, they're not cops and aren't looking to make a legal case about anything. They just want info. They weren't questioning him about his culpability in a crime, trying to get a confession to prosecute him, they were trying to find out the wheres, hows, whats, whens, and whys of Al Qaeda operations in order to assist national level policies.

Menard then said something about the Easter bunny and scurried away.

 

[Jango]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

Exactly. He was waterboarded one-hundred and eighty something times in a single month because he was a chieftain of the al Qaeda clan and had probably divulged a tidbit of information about something or another detainee spilled his guts further implicating KSM with operational awareness, which after 9/11, became a top priority for the IC. It is too bad the C.I.A. destroyed the evidence afterward when lawmakers started sniffing around. It would dispel a tremendous amount of conspiracy flung at 9/11. Granted, it'd make us lose face as a country, but we could weather that storm indefinitely. Let the terrorist apologists cry and do stupid things like protest.

 

[Menard_K]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

Menard didn't want to (or couldn't) post in this thread, but he was nice enough to PM me asking why they interrogated KSM if they didn't need his confession. Because I'm certain other truthers might struggle with that, I'll answer here: they didn't interrogate him to get a confession. The CIA is made up of intelligence agents, they're not cops and aren't looking to make a legal case about anything. They just want info. They weren't questioning him about his culpability in a crime, trying to get a confession to prosecute him, they were trying to find out the wheres, hows, whats, whens, and whys of Al Qaeda operations in order to assist national level policies.

Menard then said something about the Easter bunny and scurried away.

Space the final frontier
that is the SPACE
between human ears!

..................................... Please do give this a bit of thought, if the powers that B can use torture
"when its necessary" then what would you think if they considered it NECESSARY to torture YOU?

Human rights violations are NOT justifiable! period!
The current administration is a pack of outlaws who have NO respect at all for the rule of LAW.

NOW do U get it?

 

[OldWorldOrder]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

Space the final frontier
that is the SPACE
between human ears!

..................................... Please do give this a bit of thought, if the powers that B can use torture
"when its necessary" then what would you think if they considered it NECESSARY to torture YOU?

Human rights violations are NOT justifiable! period!
The current administration is a pack of outlaws who have NO respect at all for the rule of LAW.

NOW do U get it?

What does any of that have to do with anything? I said this:

No, it was 19 hijackers. Mostly planned by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. This is information isn't new or particularly interesting to anyone but historians and those working in national defense at this point. It's pretty well-researched at this point, which is why conspiracy theorists are so amusing to me.

You answered with this:

KSM was tortured to get his "confession"
+ the fact that the whole hijacking & flying commercial airliners into buildings full-throttle & at low altitude.
Give me a break, the whole bit is a FARCE, very clearly the Pentagon hit was NOT a big Boeing,
and the alleged "FLT175" as shown in the video of it hitting the south wall of the south tower
constitutes a violation of the laws of physics. The MSM = Propaganda Machine!

I responded with this:

Who is depending on his confession? He told Yosri Fouda all about it a year before he was captured. Ramzi Binalshibh said the same thing. Ali Hamza Ahmad Sulayman al Bahlul has concurred. Abu Musab al Suri has spoken of al Qaeda doing it, of course, because everyone knows that, but I don't know if he knew KSM. I forget. Sayf Adel talked about it. Abdul Aziz al Omari left a videotaped confession. Bakr Atyani was told that they were planning a big attack three months before that, that would dwarf the Cole bombing. The list goes on and on, no one needs to even look at what KSM said when waterboarded. The evidence is SO OVERWHELMING that I just come here to laugh, mostly.

Then you PMed me this:

If they dindn't NEED his confession .....

WHY torture somebody who you already have a case against?

Something just doesn't smell right about this whole scene.

I answered with this:

they didn't interrogate him to get a confession. The CIA is made up of intelligence agents, they're not cops and aren't looking to make a legal case about anything. They just want info. They weren't questioning him about his culpability in a crime, trying to get a confession to prosecute him, they were trying to find out the wheres, hows, whats, whens, and whys of Al Qaeda operations in order to assist national level policies.

Now you're talking about justice of waterboarding? Why aren't you talking about 9/11 anymore? Are you so confused that you can't even keep a coherent train of thought going?

So, to get back to it, 19 suicidal hijackers took over the planes and crashed them into buildings. There's OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE supporting this. There's many, many examples of people admitting to planning it/knowing about it. And your response is...what? Waterboarding is wrong? Is that supposed to do ANYTHING AT ALL to refute what I've said? What other response do you have? Something about Santa Claus and how fast an airplane can go into a building and something about middle school physics? Try to focus and write me back, thanks <3.

 

[radioman]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

What other response do you have? .

---------------

Oh, oh, oh...I know, I know his response...call on me....

" I KNOW there are naked people in the burnt Reichstag "

Do I win anything?

 

[Menard_K]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

Try to focus and write me back, thanks <3.

Do you understand at all the validity of being able to say that an aircraft penetrated a wall
in less that 350 milliseconds by examining the video of the event?

can we focus on this bit for now?

 

[OldWorldOrder]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

Do you understand at all the validity of being able to say that an aircraft penetrated a wall
in less that 350 milliseconds by examining the video of the event?

can we focus on this bit for now?

No.

You started down the rabbit hole about confessions and whatnot. That's where we're going. Are you ready to admit that you were totally wrong? Are you ready to admit that a great many people can corroborate the idea that this was planned and executed by al Qaeda?

TRY TO FOCUS. We're not talking about waterboarding and we're not talking about middle school physics. We're talking about actual evidence and confessions from the people that executed this. FOCUS

 

[OldWorldOrder]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

---------------

Oh, oh, oh...I know, I know his response...call on me....

" I KNOW there are naked people in the burnt Reichstag "

Do I win anything?

Free trip to see the aliens at Area 51. I'd say flight and accommodations are included, but there's no flight. You're gonna be driven in a van full of Mossad agents or whoever it was that was there on 9/11.

 

[Menard_K]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

No.

You started down the rabbit hole about confessions and whatnot. That's where we're going. Are you ready to admit that you were totally wrong? Are you ready to admit that a great many people can corroborate the idea that this was planned and executed by al Qaeda?

TRY TO FOCUS. We're not talking about waterboarding and we're not talking about middle school physics. We're talking about actual evidence and confessions from the people that executed this. FOCUS

OK, about those "confessions" Did the MSM bring you the news, or were YOU present when the outlaw "confessed" to plotting & conspiring against the U.S.A.

Much of this mirrors the commie witch hunt business of the 1950's
only now if you question anything, you are a "terrorist sympathizer"
wow man .... Al Qeada is out to get us because they hate our freedom.

GIVE ME A BREAK!

 

[radioman]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

Free trip to see the aliens at Area 51. I'd say flight and accommodations are included, but there's no flight. You're gonna be driven in a van full of Mossad agents or whoever it was that was there on 9/11.

--------------------
Get it right OWO......those were not JUST Mossad agents....according to skitzo, they were DANCING Mossad agents.

 

[OldWorldOrder]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

OK, about those "confessions" Did the MSM bring you the news, or were YOU present when the outlaw "confessed" to plotting & conspiring against the U.S.A.

Much of this mirrors the commie witch hunt business of the 1950's
only now if you question anything, you are a "terrorist sympathizer"
wow man .... Al Qeada is out to get us because they hate our freedom.

GIVE ME A BREAK!

loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

So everyone is lying except for the people telling you what you want to hear. Great. I appreciate you answering that flatly, though, if only to put on display exactly how your brain is 'working' with regards to this.

EDIT: Two of the people I mentioned are actual journalists, that aren't part of the 'MSM' by any stretch of the imagination. They're lying, too? Maybe, Menard, everyone else in the world knows the truth, and we're all just lying to you. Just you. Just to mess with your head for no reason. I mean...it's just as plausible as anything else you've offered.

 

[OldWorldOrder]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

--------------------
Get it right OWO......those were not JUST Mossad agents....according to skitzo, they were DANCING Mossad agents.

 

[Menard_K]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

So everyone is lying except for the people telling you what you want to hear. Great. I appreciate you answering that flatly, though, if only to put on display exactly how your brain is 'working' with regards to this.

EDIT: Two of the people I mentioned are actual journalists, that aren't part of the 'MSM' by any stretch of the imagination. They're lying, too? Maybe, Menard, everyone else in the world

knows the truth, and we're all just lying to you. Just you. Just to mess with your head for no reason. I mean...it's just as plausible as anything else you've offered.[/QUOTE]

Thank U for the lame guess at what I think.
What is REAL here is the evidence, the Video & photographic evidence + what bits of steel & other physical remains of WTC 1,2 & 7 there are still around. The stuff reported in the MSM is unreliable at best, the media in this country functions as a Propaganda Machine.

 

[OldWorldOrder]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

Thank U for the lame guess at what I think.

You're very welcome. Your thoughts seem to be completely unpredictable, because you don't use logic and facts to arrive at conclusions, so it's the best I could do regarding what you 'think'. For example, I'll use radioman since he, along with me, is one of the few us dumb enough to continue to dignify you with responses of any kind: I'd guess that if I told radioman that there was a gas leak in his house and he should leave as soon as possible, he'd take a second or two, gather up a few important things, and leave his abode. He'd keep an eye on it from afar, of course, to make sure he wasn't getting tricked into allowing himself to be burglarized, but he'd leave and call the fire department, I'd guess. But guessing about what you'd do? I have no earthly idea, because it certainly doesn't seem like you process information in a way I can even recognize. You might call a family member to ask how there day has been. You might light some incense. You might start screaming profanities at the toaster. I can't guess what you think, because no conclusion that I've seen you arrive at has made an iota of sense.

What is REAL here is the evidence, the Video & photographic evidence + what bits of steel & other physical remains of WTC 1,2 & 7 there are still around. The stuff reported in the MSM is unreliable at best, the media in this country functions as a Propaganda Machine.

This make no sense. Nothing you know about it is firsthand, the exact same grounds on which you just now tried to refute what I said. Try again, this time without contradicting your own argumentation methods.

 

[Menard_K]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

This make no sense. Nothing you know about it is firsthand, the exact same grounds on which you just now tried to refute what I said. Try again, this time without contradicting your own argumentation methods.

The part about you guys just messing with my head, that has to be it.
Really ... if you insist on holding on to a belief that 19 suicidal fanatics
hijacked airliners ..... ( etc... ) well then, have at it.

 

[OldWorldOrder]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

The part about you guys just messing with my head, that has to be it.
Really ... if you insist on holding on to a belief that 19 suicidal fanatics
hijacked airliners ..... ( etc... ) well then, have at it.

Yeah, we're gonna hold to the belief that is supported by mountains of evidence. Anyway, feel free to try again, without using anything but firsthand evidence (since you said anything that I use that's not firsthand evidence is out of bounds). But, honestly, for your sake I'm hoping you don't try. Just slink away again. I mean, I want you to keep struggling and trying, while people watch, kinda sadly. But just for your sake...I'll understand if you don't.

 

[Menard_K]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

Yeah, we're gonna hold to the belief that is supported by mountains of evidence. Anyway, feel free to try again, without using anything but firsthand evidence (since you said anything that I use that's not firsthand evidence is out of bounds). But, honestly, for your sake I'm hoping you don't try. Just slink away again. I mean, I want you to keep struggling and trying, while people watch, kinda sadly. But just for your sake...I'll understand if you don't.

apparently you fail at reading comprehension, I did NOT say anything of the sort.
The evidence that is in compliance with the laws of physics is a good start on
what I would hope to be common ground between the people who question the
official story & those who believe the whole thing, angry Arabs & all .....

BTW: what evidence proves to you that angry Arabs hijacked airliners ( etc.... ) ?
Please enlighten me.

 

[radioman]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

I'd guess that if I told radioman that there was a gas leak in his house and he should leave as soon as possible, he'd take a second or two, gather up a few important things, and leave his abode. He'd keep an eye on it from afar, of course, to make sure he wasn't getting tricked into allowing himself to be burglarized, but he'd leave and call the fire department, I'd guess. .

-------------------------
Well.....that sounds about right.
However, I would first ascertain that you are not a neo-con or a member of an int'l cabal intent on controlling the world.
I would also put on my underwear.

 

[OldWorldOrder]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

apparently you fail at reading comprehension, I did NOT say anything of the sort.

What is with you guys and your denying things that are clearly still visible? Do you argue in real life like this and have just gotten used to not having to be responsible later for the things you say? You said:

OK, about those "confessions" Did the MSM bring you the news, or were YOU present when the outlaw "confessed" to plotting & conspiring against the U.S.A.

That's clearly saying that unless I have firsthand experience, I'm being lied to.

The evidence that is in compliance with the laws of physics is a good start on
what I would hope to be common ground between the people who question the
official story & those who believe the whole thing, angry Arabs & all .....

All the evidence you've ever seen is secondhand at best. So why do I need to have firsthand evidence but it's acceptable for you to have secondhand or thirdhand evidence?

BTW: what evidence proves to you that angry Arabs hijacked airliners ( etc.... ) ?
Please enlighten me.

Did you just mentally block out the exchange we had earlier in this thread and then I reposted for you? Maybe it's all the 'angry Arabs' that admitted to being part of its planning and execution?

 

[Menard_K]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity


Very much like saying that Santa Clause is real because any grown-up will tell you that he is real
in response to Reindeer can not fly. Can U dig it?

If one can bring to bear prof that NO commercial airliners were used as weapons that day.
that is NO hijackings, none of that, WTC 1,2 & 7 destroyed by explosives ...
The Pentagon attack totally bogus,
PLEASE do think about this, the worlds greatest military power FAILED to defend even its own HQ,
and on 9/12 Donald Rumsfeld still had a JOB .... whats up with that?
as a taxpayer, are you not just bit concerned?

 

[OldWorldOrder]

Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

Very much like saying that Santa Clause is real because any grown-up will tell you that he is real
in response to Reindeer can not fly. Can U dig it?

This made no sense. Doubly so when you're obviously referring to the movie Santa Clause with Tim Allen, which is incontrovertibly real, because I've had the displeasure of having watched it with my own eyes- the definition of firsthand.

If one can bring to bear prof that NO commercial airliners were used as weapons that day.
that is NO hijackings, none of that, WTC 1,2 & 7 destroyed by explosives ...
The Pentagon attack totally bogus,
PLEASE do think about this, the worlds greatest military power FAILED to defend even its own HQ,
and on 9/12 Donald Rumsfeld still had a JOB .... whats up with that?
as a taxpayer, are you not just bit concerned?

So did you just again abandon the argument you were on? I asked you to focus and you're not. Can you at least focus on trying to focus? Why is your secondhand (at best) information good and mine is not?