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9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity[W:56]

Occam's Razor

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Which is the more likely motive... using the principle of occam's razor...

is a principle of parsimony, economy, or succinctness used in logic and problem-solving. It states that among competing hypotheses, the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions should be selected. In other words, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

The application of the principle often shifts the burden of proof in a discussion.[SUP][a][/SUP] The razor states that one should proceed to simpler theories until simplicity can be traded for greater explanatory power. The simplest available theory need not be most accurate. Philosophers also point out that the exact meaning of simplest may be nuanced.


The criticism is that the following list is far too complicated to apply to the above principle. What follows is an exercise in eliminating assumptions...

Terrorists: They hate us for our liberty. Simple to be sure. Yet under this logic, Santa is the more likely explanation for presents under the tree than numerous trips to stores by parents, ordering online, wrapping, etc.

Neo-cons: a single minded, 30 year effort to position the US as the sole, perpetual, global superpower to secure for all time "American Interests".


I presented the following list in another thread to make this point. In the next post we'll take these point by point and discuss their credibility.



  • Let's start with the Bush/bin Laden family connections going back to at least the mid 70s
  • At the same time Bush Sr became CIA chief, Salem bin Laden invested in GW Jr's first failed energy company aptly named, Arbusto, and Osama became a CIA asset.
  • Osama received guidance and funding in part from another Bush ally, The Saudi Royal Family... I think we all remember Jr kissing the Saudi prince on the lips post 9-11.
  • Also during Bush Sr's tenure as CIA director, shady links to a CIA money laundering front for heroin from Afghanistan, BCCI began to be forged.
  • Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, et al have not only been implicated, they boast of their involvement in two previous conspiracies, the Halloween Massacre and the Team B disinformation scam perpetrated on congress in the 80s. The noble lie... their stock and trade.
  • These same men write a manifesto summarizing their 30 year effort to position the US as the sole superpower to secure "american interests". This 96 page document, the 30 years of deception and singular career goals that led to it, all the lofty goals it aims to reach... is not worth the paper it's printed on without a 9-11 event. Without it, the window of opportunity for sole, perpetual superpower status would soon close and cannot ever be realized. Their life's work wasted, their plan for global military and economic domination missed. This alone is far more motive than can be ascribed to any terrorist.
  • One of those resource/business "interests" for nearly twenty years was a pipeline worth several trillion in revenue for it's operators over several decades. This is stated in the RAD document.
  • One of the military interests was repositioning our troops from cold war europe to permanent (though at the time non-existent) bases closer to Asia, the only source for a challenge to US military and economic hegemony, China and India. This is also clearly stated in the RAD manifesto.
  • Failing economic pressures to constrain rising superpowers, a strong military would be needed to decisively put down any challengers to US global hegemony, even to the point of fighting multiple major theater wars ala WWII. Again, clearly stated in the RAD, again, not worth the paper without an attack.
  • Further stated in the RAD document, and in the interest of the neocon agenda of militarizing the US (also clearly stated in RAD), the current highly contested $50 billion defense budget would need to increase to $350 billion to accomplish these goals... again, merely a wish without an attack.
  • Cheney, Michael Ledeen and Wolfowitz referred to themselves and the neo-cons as "democratic revolutionaries" and embraced concepts like; the Noble Lie, enter into evil to do good, manipulation of morals within the masses, preemptive war and total war.
  • BuCheney not only did nothing concerning terrorism prior to 9-11, they actively put down attempts to address it until the day before the attacks.
  • Prior to taking office, while giving terrorism a free pass, the BuCheney admin were drawing up detailed plans to invade Iraq, again, a waste of time without a massive attack... by the terrorists the ignored.
  • Every single key critical position was occupied by a core neocon. From airport and WTC security, to our national defense, to the planned exercises that involved every single asset available on the eastern seaboard.
  • The day of 9-11, the entire response infrastructure of the most powerful nation in history was brought to it's knees, hands tied, massive confusion in yet another miraculous, unprecedented number of missed opportunities. Hundreds of highly trained personnel couldn't tell which end was up. This infrastructure is designed to work even if there are line of command failures. However, they are bound to obey command directives. Where did that buck stop on 9-11?
  • During the attacks, the man in charge of our national defense went MIA for almost an hour... out on the Pentagon lawn playing medic.
  • Also during the attacks, the CIC was incommunicado on AF1, then sequestered in a bunker, completely out of the loop.
  • Cheney was the only person in direct control of every single aspect of our response. This is NOT his job. Can you imagine Dan Quayle or Al Gore in such a role?
  • Within 48 hours it was announced we knew who all 19 hijackers were, despite not being able to produce a passenger manifest listing them, nor a single frame of video showing them in the concourse or boarding the plane.
  • At the same time, we were told, two days later, we should ignore wild conspiracy theories and just go shopping.
  • We are further told, again and again, by all admin officials, that we must suspend our most patriotic duty, especially in times of crisis, vigilance and skepticism of our gov't and the individuals running it and proclaim the only patriotism is blind support of the admin.
“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy”
James Madison quotes
“When the tyrant has disposed of foreign enemies by conquest or treaty and there is nothing to fear from them, then he is always stirring up some war or other, in order that the people may require a leader.”
Plato quotes
“Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty.”
John Philpot Curran quotes
“When good people in any country cease their vigilance and struggle, then evil men prevail.”
Pearl S. Buck quotes (American author, 1938 Nobel Prize for Literature, 1892-1973)

  • We are also told that not one eyewitness or direct victim is to be given credence, the admin and intel already have it all figured out.
  • The only investigation initiated involved structural engineers who admirably volunteered, with a budget 1/10th ($500k) of that immediately given to the Smithsonian ($5m) to collect "artifacts" and items of interest like door knobs. No professional crime scene/disaster investigators were employed, no SOP was followed.
  • When the grieving family members of the victims, those that lost the most, those that suffered the only deaths on the Continental US in an act of foreign terrorism, asked, then demanded a proper investigation... they were told no.
  • When public pressure rose, the biggest mockery of an official investigation was assembled, again with carefully appointed neocon friendly sycophants.
  • Breaking all known precedents, procedures, decorum, sense, Cheney and Bush were allowed to testify together, in private, with no oath and no record. This alone should be enough to worry and spark grave skepticism in every citizen. No record? One could choke down the rest, but no record?
  • Following 9-11, the miracle that saved their life's work, the Manifesto of the PNAC RAD document was followed to the letter, and still is.
  • All crime scene evidence was either ignored or quickly disposed of in violation of proper investigative procedure.

 

Menard_K

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Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

Heavy stuff! The thing that strikes me about the whole political can O' worms is the fact that
the MSM is involved as at the very least an accessory. The level of heavy psychological warfare for this,
is mind boggling, but the evidence is pointing that direction. Are we opposing a force that uses
black magic & witchcraft to accomplish its ends?
 

Jango

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Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

Occam,

So you're in the LIHOP category?
 

Thoreau72

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Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

It's plain to see, ESPECIALLY with the luxury of 11 years worth of hindsight, that the official story is impossible.
 

Menard_K

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Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

It's plain to see, ESPECIALLY with the luxury of 11 years worth of hindsight, that the official story is impossible.
Thank U ever so much for that, & for the benefit of the adherents to the official story,
knowing that the official story is a LIE, is a great fundamental start, we do NOT have to agree
on exotic energy beam weapons or mini-nukes in the buildings or Black Magic & WitchCraft,
it is a start to know that the official story is impossible.

Peace
Love
& may Justice prevail ......
 

Sphere

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Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

Bush didn't say merely to ignore CT. He stated "let us NOT TOLERATE outrageous CT"
And, yes, the plan to invade a series of ME countries and gain fiat control of them was constructed well in advance of 911.
Which of course raises suspicion in regard to the event, as it was used as the catalyst to execute this plan. Without a
911 type event, the plan would remain shelved. Without intervention in the ME, it was possible we could have seen the
collapse of the USD as the global reserve currency. When you look at the timeline of events in regard to the USD and it's
possible demise, 911 as a catalyst was very convenient..............
 

OldWorldOrder

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Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

Al Qaeda attacking.
 

Menard_K

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Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

Al Qaeda attacking.
OK, if you have the INFORMATION, when & where?

The MSM has been broadcasting that there MAY be a terrorist attack someplace on
this planet at some unspecified time. HUH?
 

OldWorldOrder

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Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

OK, if you have the INFORMATION, when & where?

The MSM has been broadcasting that there MAY be a terrorist attack someplace on
this planet at some unspecified time. HUH?
Sure. New York and Washington, September 11th, 2001. Mid morning.
 

Menard_K

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Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

Sure. New York and Washington, September 11th, 2001. Mid morning.
So you fully buy-into that 19 suicidal hijackers story? WH0T?

or am I missing something here?
 

OldWorldOrder

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Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

So you fully buy-into that 19 suicidal hijackers story? WH0T?

or am I missing something here?
I think you're missing a lot, yes.
 

Menard_K

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Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

I think you're missing a lot, yes.

so if you do NOT buy the 19 suicidal hijackers story,
care to elaborate upon what you do think?
 

OldWorldOrder

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Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

so if you do NOT buy the 19 suicidal hijackers story,
care to elaborate upon what you do think?
No, it was 19 hijackers. Mostly planned by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. This is information isn't new or particularly interesting to anyone but historians and those working in national defense at this point. It's pretty well-researched at this point, which is why conspiracy theorists are so amusing to me.
 

Menard_K

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Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

No, it was 19 hijackers. Mostly planned by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. This is information isn't new or particularly interesting to anyone but historians and those working in national defense at this point. It's pretty well-researched at this point, which is why conspiracy theorists are so amusing to me.
KSM was tortured to get his "confession"
+ the fact that the whole hijacking & flying commercial airliners into buildings full-throttle & at low altitude.
Give me a break, the whole bit is a FARCE, very clearly the Pentagon hit was NOT a big Boeing,
and the alleged "FLT175" as shown in the video of it hitting the south wall of the south tower
constitutes a violation of the laws of physics. The MSM = Propaganda Machine!
 

OldWorldOrder

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Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

KSM was tortured to get his "confession"
Who is depending on his confession? He told Yosri Fouda all about it a year before he was captured. Ramzi Binalshibh said the same thing. Ali Hamza Ahmad Sulayman al Bahlul has concurred. Abu Musab al Suri has spoken of al Qaeda doing it, of course, because everyone knows that, but I don't know if he knew KSM. I forget. Sayf Adel talked about it. Abdul Aziz al Omari left a videotaped confession. Bakr Atyani was told that they were planning a big attack three months before that, that would dwarf the Cole bombing. The list goes on and on, no one needs to even look at what KSM said when waterboarded. The evidence is SO OVERWHELMING that I just come here to laugh, mostly.

+ the fact that the whole hijacking & flying commercial airliners into buildings full-throttle & at low altitude.
The fact of...what? The sentence fragment has no object.

Give me a break, the whole bit is a FARCE, very clearly the Pentagon hit was NOT a big Boeing,
It very clearly was. Your logic isn't even self-consistent: if they wanted to make it look like a plane hit it, even if it was an inside job, why not hit it with a plane? If they didn't want to or couldn't, why not just say some terrorists got a hold of a missile and fired it at the Pentagon? Use your head, man.

and the alleged "FLT175" as shown in the video of it hitting the south wall of the south tower
constitutes a violation of the laws of physics.
No, it doesn't, as has been explained to you over and over throughout your life.

The MSM = Propaganda Machine!
Take a deep breath.
 

Gaugingcatenate

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Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

Which is the more likely motive... using the principle of occam's razor...



The criticism is that the following list is far too complicated to apply to the above principle. What follows is an exercise in eliminating assumptions...

Terrorists: They hate us for our liberty. Simple to be sure. Yet under this logic, Santa is the more likely explanation for presents under the tree than numerous trips to stores by parents, ordering online, wrapping, etc.

Neo-cons: a single minded, 30 year effort to position the US as the sole, perpetual, global superpower to secure for all time "American Interests".


I presented the following list in another thread to make this point. In the next post we'll take these point by point and discuss their credibility.



  • Let's start with the Bush/bin Laden family connections going back to at least the mid 70s
  • At the same time Bush Sr became CIA chief, Salem bin Laden invested in GW Jr's first failed energy company aptly named, Arbusto, and Osama became a CIA asset.
  • Osama received guidance and funding in part from another Bush ally, The Saudi Royal Family... I think we all remember Jr kissing the Saudi prince on the lips post 9-11.
  • Also during Bush Sr's tenure as CIA director, shady links to a CIA money laundering front for heroin from Afghanistan, BCCI began to be forged.
  • Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, et al have not only been implicated, they boast of their involvement in two previous conspiracies, the Halloween Massacre and the Team B disinformation scam perpetrated on congress in the 80s. The noble lie... their stock and trade.
  • These same men write a manifesto summarizing their 30 year effort to position the US as the sole superpower to secure "american interests". This 96 page document, the 30 years of deception and singular career goals that led to it, all the lofty goals it aims to reach... is not worth the paper it's printed on without a 9-11 event. Without it, the window of opportunity for sole, perpetual superpower status would soon close and cannot ever be realized. Their life's work wasted, their plan for global military and economic domination missed. This alone is far more motive than can be ascribed to any terrorist.
  • One of those resource/business "interests" for nearly twenty years was a pipeline worth several trillion in revenue for it's operators over several decades. This is stated in the RAD document.
  • One of the military interests was repositioning our troops from cold war europe to permanent (though at the time non-existent) bases closer to Asia, the only source for a challenge to US military and economic hegemony, China and India. This is also clearly stated in the RAD manifesto.
  • Failing economic pressures to constrain rising superpowers, a strong military would be needed to decisively put down any challengers to US global hegemony, even to the point of fighting multiple major theater wars ala WWII. Again, clearly stated in the RAD, again, not worth the paper without an attack.
  • Further stated in the RAD document, and in the interest of the neocon agenda of militarizing the US (also clearly stated in RAD), the current highly contested $50 billion defense budget would need to increase to $350 billion to accomplish these goals... again, merely a wish without an attack.
  • Cheney, Michael Ledeen and Wolfowitz referred to themselves and the neo-cons as "democratic revolutionaries" and embraced concepts like; the Noble Lie, enter into evil to do good, manipulation of morals within the masses, preemptive war and total war.
  • BuCheney not only did nothing concerning terrorism prior to 9-11, they actively put down attempts to address it until the day before the attacks.
  • Prior to taking office, while giving terrorism a free pass, the BuCheney admin were drawing up detailed plans to invade Iraq, again, a waste of time without a massive attack... by the terrorists the ignored.
  • Every single key critical position was occupied by a core neocon. From airport and WTC security, to our national defense, to the planned exercises that involved every single asset available on the eastern seaboard.
  • The day of 9-11, the entire response infrastructure of the most powerful nation in history was brought to it's knees, hands tied, massive confusion in yet another miraculous, unprecedented number of missed opportunities. Hundreds of highly trained personnel couldn't tell which end was up. This infrastructure is designed to work even if there are line of command failures. However, they are bound to obey command directives. Where did that buck stop on 9-11?
  • During the attacks, the man in charge of our national defense went MIA for almost an hour... out on the Pentagon lawn playing medic.
  • Also during the attacks, the CIC was incommunicado on AF1, then sequestered in a bunker, completely out of the loop.
  • Cheney was the only person in direct control of every single aspect of our response. This is NOT his job. Can you imagine Dan Quayle or Al Gore in such a role?
  • Within 48 hours it was announced we knew who all 19 hijackers were, despite not being able to produce a passenger manifest listing them, nor a single frame of video showing them in the concourse or boarding the plane.
  • At the same time, we were told, two days later, we should ignore wild conspiracy theories and just go shopping.
  • We are further told, again and again, by all admin officials, that we must suspend our most patriotic duty, especially in times of crisis, vigilance and skepticism of our gov't and the individuals running it and proclaim the only patriotism is blind support of the admin.

  • We are also told that not one eyewitness or direct victim is to be given credence, the admin and intel already have it all figured out.
  • The only investigation initiated involved structural engineers who admirably volunteered, with a budget 1/10th ($500k) of that immediately given to the Smithsonian ($5m) to collect "artifacts" and items of interest like door knobs. No professional crime scene/disaster investigators were employed, no SOP was followed.
  • When the grieving family members of the victims, those that lost the most, those that suffered the only deaths on the Continental US in an act of foreign terrorism, asked, then demanded a proper investigation... they were told no.
  • When public pressure rose, the biggest mockery of an official investigation was assembled, again with carefully appointed neocon friendly sycophants.
  • Breaking all known precedents, procedures, decorum, sense, Cheney and Bush were allowed to testify together, in private, with no oath and no record. This alone should be enough to worry and spark grave skepticism in every citizen. No record? One could choke down the rest, but no record?
  • Following 9-11, the miracle that saved their life's work, the Manifesto of the PNAC RAD document was followed to the letter, and still is.
  • All crime scene evidence was either ignored or quickly disposed of in violation of proper investigative procedure.

Yes, that is quite a list, and certainly not an Occam. And this is far too complicated to be considered solely "nuance". I would agree that Occam should not be accepted as proof, as its really just a generalization in problem solving methods.

While I am open to the idea that we are being lied to by our government, it could not be just one administration, one party as you too simplistically make it out to be. I will be interested in the incontrovertible truth of this complicated list beyond just shallow inferences. I mean we can link Kevin Bacon to almost everything within what, sex degrees of separation? Almost all American presidents have, for instance, close relations with the Saudi royals and other players in the Middle East [ check out funding for Jimmy Carter Library, his outspoken defense of Arab causes, particularly the outright odium he displays as regards our ally, Israel ] almost all can be photographed in what seems to be compromising positions, instance the bowing of Obama to Saudi King Abdullah

Obama Bows to Saudi King - YouTube

There are, indeed, many questions to be asked. But many you have left out. Did AQ deny they did any of this? Did not Khalid Shaikh Mohammed confess to masterminding the September 11 attacks, the Richard Reid shoe bombing attempt to blow up a jetliner over the Atlantic Ocean, the Bali nightclub bombing in Indonesia, 1993 World Trade Center bombing as well as various other foiled terrorist attacks? That is all made up? Did he also not decapitate Jewish American journalist Daniel Pearl? On video? Would not Osama bin Laden or his successor, Ayman al-Zawahiri, have been in, and currently be in, a great position to make the US a laughing stock, prove that America was making this all up?

You seem to think you have this all wrapped up... are you an insider or just getting your information from various conspiracy books and websites? Not that that makes them wrong. I question and have almost always questioned both Kennedy assassinations, but was that all right wing as well, Bush/Cheney/Wolfowitz folks? And you do know Neocons are former liberals, right? Neo meaning new.

I will be watching and commenting no doubt. Make sure you have your ducks in a row is all I have to say.
 

OldWorldOrder

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Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

I mean we can link Kevin Bacon to almost everything within what, sex degrees of separation?
Whoa. I made a post referencing conspiracy theorist and that game long ago:

Theory-crafting conspiracies is fun. Kind of like playing Six Degree of Kevin Bacon but with not only actors in movies, but people in organizations; money in economies; states in conflicts; bases in locations; projects in various times under those organizations, using money in those economies, with the oversight of various states as a result of conflicts, all located in different bases...and every possible relationship therein.

And just like the Kevin Bacon game, pretty much any organization can be linked to any event or whatever with enough time and creativity. But when you start thinking it's real...well, that's like thinking all those actors really were in the same movie. You took a fun exercise/way to pass the time and just went way too far.
 

Menard_K

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Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

I will be watching and commenting no doubt. Make sure you have your ducks in a row is all I have to say.
I would have it no other way. Welcome citizen.
 

OldWorldOrder

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Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

I hope you're investigating those names and doing a little research into 9/11, Menard. You seem really interested in it, you should read about it some.
 

Occam's Razor

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Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

Yes, that is quite a list, and certainly not an Occam. And this is far too complicated to be considered solely "nuance". I would agree that Occam should not be accepted as proof, as its really just a generalization in problem solving methods.

While I am open to the idea that we are being lied to by our government, it could not be just one administration, one party as you too simplistically make it out to be. I will be interested in the incontrovertible truth of this complicated list beyond just shallow inferences. I mean we can link Kevin Bacon to almost everything within what, sex degrees of separation? Almost all American presidents have, for instance, close relations with the Saudi royals and other players in the Middle East [ check out funding for Jimmy Carter Library, his outspoken defense of Arab causes, particularly the outright odium he displays as regards our ally, Israel ] almost all can be photographed in what seems to be compromising positions, instance the bowing of Obama to Saudi King Abdullah

Obama Bows to Saudi King - YouTube

There are, indeed, many questions to be asked. But many you have left out. Did AQ deny they did any of this? Did not Khalid Shaikh Mohammed confess to masterminding the September 11 attacks, the Richard Reid shoe bombing attempt to blow up a jetliner over the Atlantic Ocean, the Bali nightclub bombing in Indonesia, 1993 World Trade Center bombing as well as various other foiled terrorist attacks? That is all made up? Did he also not decapitate Jewish American journalist Daniel Pearl? On video? Would not Osama bin Laden or his successor, Ayman al-Zawahiri, have been in, and currently be in, a great position to make the US a laughing stock, prove that America was making this all up?

You seem to think you have this all wrapped up... are you an insider or just getting your information from various conspiracy books and websites? Not that that makes them wrong. I question and have almost always questioned both Kennedy assassinations, but was that all right wing as well, Bush/Cheney/Wolfowitz folks? And you do know Neocons are former liberals, right? Neo meaning new.

I will be watching and commenting no doubt. Make sure you have your ducks in a row is all I have to say.
I bristly at the over use and misuse of the word "proof". A proof comes at the end of a long road of evidences.

Also, the word "truth"... i have little use for. Truth is based on, and often reliant upon belief systems. Facts are not. I am wholly uninterested in anyones truth. The facts are all that matter and whether those facts are corroborative with other facts, or anomalous outliers.

Next, there is no difference in parties, and no change in direction with changes in administration, regardless of party affiliation. Of course it's not just one administration... this goes back over 40 years... but the key central players have remained largely the same.

As for the list of terrorist acts you listed... one must ask, who benefited the most from those attacks? I can easily show that it was not AQ.

Oh... and the Neo-cons.. oh yes my friend... they were former liberals disillusioned with the radical turn the left took in the sixties. But above all else, politically, consistently, throughout their careers... they have been opportunists. Parties do not matter to these fellas... only the ends by whatever means.

I have followed and studied these men for nearly 30 years... there isn't much I don't know about them.

Lastly, I forgot about this thread... it will be a while until I can devote the time to it that it deserves. I have two large projects going right now that will be taking up quite a bit of my time. Most of this stuff I can write off the top of my head, but most will require exhaustive citations and linking. I don't have the time at the moment. Also, sadly, many of the source links I have compiled over the years are no longer active, being more than a decade old (news reports, articles, book quotes etc. So while I can still provide the citations, links may be a problem. And I doubt anyone is willing to venture to their public libraries to fact check me.
 

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Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

And I doubt anyone is willing to venture to their public libraries to fact check me.
You were flat out wrong in just your second point, about bin Laden being a CIA asset, so there are already issues without wading much further into it.
 

Gaugingcatenate

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Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

Whoa. I made a post referencing conspiracy theorist and that game long ago:

Theory-crafting conspiracies is fun. Kind of like playing Six Degree of Kevin Bacon but with not only actors in movies, but people in organizations; money in economies; states in conflicts; bases in locations; projects in various times under those organizations, using money in those economies, with the oversight of various states as a result of conflicts, all located in different bases...and every possible relationship therein.

And just like the Kevin Bacon game, pretty much any organization can be linked to any event or whatever with enough time and creativity. But when you start thinking it's real...well, that's like thinking all those actors really were in the same movie. You took a fun exercise/way to pass the time and just went way too far.
I would agree. However, there are bad actors [ not talking the Hollywood types in this instance ] out there...how to determine the wheat from the chaff? Its like panning for gold except you rarely know when you really have a gold nugget, there being no local, reliable assay office to get an appraisal. One has to look at the evidence with a critical eye, with a lot of gut feeling either adhered too or logically ignored... but being at this distance from events, its really hard to tell.
 

Occam's Razor

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Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

You were flat out wrong in just your second point, about bin Laden being a CIA asset, so there are already issues without wading much further into it.
Show your evidence. Your opinions count for nil.

Cite and link.
Al Qaeda: Enemy or Asset? » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names
Both Bin Laden and the CIA "held accounts in the Bank for Credit and Commerce International (BCCI)." "Bin Laden worked especially closely with Gulbuddin Hekmatyar"who Gibbs calls "the CIA's favored Mujahiddin commander". Gibbs quotes Le Monde as saying bin Laden was "recruited by the CIA" in 1979, Associated Press as saying a former bin Laden aide told them that in 1989 the U.S. shipped high-powered sniper rifles to a Mujahiddin faction that included bin Laden, and Jane’s Intelligence Review as stating Bin Laden "worked in close association with U.S. agents" in raising money for the Mujahiddin from "vast family connections" near the Pakistan-Afghanistan border.

Forgotten Coverage of Afghan 'Freedom Fighters', Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting, January/February 2002.
The Economist, 9/15/01
Le Monde (9/15/01)
Jane’s Intelligence Review, 10/1/98
Bush sr., himself a CIA operative right out of college, has had and maintains close ties to the bin Laden family. George jr had Osama's older brother as an investor in his first oil ventures. They are connected through BCCI, the Carlyle Group,

Maktab al-Khidamat (MAK), also known as Al-Kifah, is Osama bin Laden’s main charity front in the 1980s. The US government will later call it the “precursor organization to al-Qaeda” (see Late 1984). In 2005, investigative journalist Joe Trento will write, “CIA money was actually funneled to MAK, since it was recruiting young men to come join the jihad in Afghanistan.” Trento will explain this information comes from “a former CIA officer who actually filed these reports” but who cannot be identified because he still works in Afghanistan. MAK was founded in 1984 (see Late 1984) and was disbanded around 1996 (see Shortly After November 19, 1995). However, Trento will not specify exactly when CIA aid to MAK began or how long it lasted. [TRENTO, 2005, PP. 342] Bin Laden appears to have other at least indirect contact with the CIA around this time (see 1986).

Alastair Crooke, an agent for the British intelligence service MI6, helps out with the anti-Soviet jihad and gets “to know some of the militants who would become leaders of al-Qaeda.” [NEW STATESMAN, 4/11/2005] He also spends “years during the 1980s with Osama Bin Laden’s henchmen in Afghanistan.” [SUNDAY EXPRESS, 6/12/2005] Crooke, whose role is to coordinate British assistance to the mujaheddin, will later be described by CIA officer Milton Bearden as “a natural on the frontier” and “a British agent straight out of the Great Game.” Details of exactly which future al-Qaeda leaders he gets to know are not available. In the 1990s, Crooke will move to Palestine, where he will come into contact with Hamas leaders. [NEW STATESMAN, 4/11/2005]

The CIA has some murky connection to Al-Kifah that has yet to be fully explained. Newsweek will later say the Brooklyn office “doubled as a recruiting post for the CIA seeking to steer fresh troops to the mujaheddin” fighting in Afghanistan. At the same time, the Brooklyn office is where “veterans of [the Afghan war arrived] in the United States—many with passports arranged by the CIA.” [NEWSWEEK, 10/1/2001] Robert I. Friedman, writing for New York magazine, will comment that the Brooklyn office was a refuge for ex- and future mujaheddin, “But the highlight for the center’s regulars were the inspirational jihad lecture series, featuring CIA-sponsored speakers.… One week on Atlantic Avenue, it might be a CIA-trained Afghan rebel traveling on a CIA-issued visa; the next, it might be a clean-cut Arabic-speaking Green Beret, who would lecture about the importance of being part of the mujaheddin, or ‘warriors of the Lord.’ The more popular lectures were held upstairs in the roomier Al-Farouq Mosque; such was the case in 1990 when Sheikh [Omar] Abdul-Rahman, traveling on a CIA-supported visa, came to town.” One frequent instructor is double agent Ali Mohamed, who is in the US Special Forces at the time (see 1987-1989). Bin Laden’s mentor Azzam frequently visits and lectures in the area. In 1988, he tells “a rapt crowd of several hundred in Jersey City, ‘Blood and martyrdom are the only way to create a Muslim society.… However, humanity won’t allow us to achieve this objective, because all humanity is the enemy of every Muslim.’” [NEW YORK MAGAZINE, 3/17/1995]

Ayman Al-Zawahiri, future Al-Qaeda second in command, makes a recruiting trip to the office in 1989 (see Spring 1993). [NEW YORKER, 9/9/2002] The Brooklyn office also raises a considerable amount of money for MAK/Al-Kifah back in Pakistan. The Independent will later call the office “a place of pivotal importance to Operation Cyclone, the American effort to support the mujaheddin. The Al-Kifah [Refugee Center was] raising funds and, crucially, providing recruits for the struggle, with active American assistance.” [INDEPENDENT, 11/1/1998]

Abdul-Rahman, better known as the “Blind Sheikh,” is closely linked to bin Laden. In 1990, he moves to New York on another CIA-supported visa (see July 1990) and soon dominates the Al-Kifah Refugee Center. Shalabi has a falling out with him over how to spend the money they raise and he is killed in mysterious circumstances in early 1991, completing Abdul-Rahman’s take over. Now, both the Brooklyn and Pakistan ends of the Al-Kifah/MAK network are firmly controlled by bin Laden and his close associates. In 1998, the US government will say that al-Qaeda’s “connection to the United States evolved from the Al-Kifah Refugee Center.” Yet there is no sign that the CIA stops its relationship with the Brooklyn office before it closes down shortly after the 1993 WTC bombing. [NEW YORK TIMES, 10/22/1998]

Your turn....
 

OldWorldOrder

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Re: 9/11 Motive, Means and Opportunity

Show your evidence. Your opinions count for nil.

Cite and link.
It's not my opinion. Did you just ask me to prove a negative, though? Hmmm....

Except there's no evidence of him working for them? Hekmatyar did, everyone knows that. That doesn't mean bin Laden did. What would they want from him or he want from them anyway?

The Osama Bin Laden I Know: An Oral History of Al-Qaeda's Leader - Peter L. Bergen - Google Books

The Bin Ladens: An Arabian Family in the American Century - Steve Coll - Google Books

I mean, none of what you quoted even said bin Laden worked for the CIA anyway. So why are you purporting it as a fact? There's zero evidence of it. Who does that?
 
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