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6th Circuit Court of Appeals Backs Representative Government

It is evidence. I have provided the evidence. There is a lot of evidence of same sex marriages (even one that actually was likely to have happened between two Catholic Bishops or other clergymen when they could get married (which they could in the past)). It is part of history in many cultures, you just don't want to accept that.

Who gives a damn? It's not relevant to the question whether anything in the Constitution prohibits states from making marriage laws that exclude partners who are the same sex. If something in the Constitution does do that, you haven't identified what it is.
 
Who gives a damn? It's not relevant to the question whether anything in the Constitution prohibits states from making marriage laws that exclude partners who are the same sex. If something in the Constitution does do that, you haven't identified what it is.

The Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment prohibits the states from making laws that exclude partners of the same sex from marriage laws when the state cannot show that a legitimate state interest is furthered by the restriction.
 
The Sixth Circuit decision again exposed the argument by analogy to Loving for the nonsense it is.

The Sixth Circuit decision exposed nothing but the convoluted beliefs of two particular Sixth Circuit judges, which wasn't really a shocker for many.
 
The Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment prohibits the states from making laws that exclude partners of the same sex from marriage laws when the state cannot show that a legitimate state interest is furthered by the restriction.

The Fourteenth Amendment says nothing about homosexuality, nor about any other immoral sexual perversion; nor is there anything anywhere else in the Constitution that can rationally be construed as requiring government to treat immorality and indecency as equal to morality and decency.
 
The Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment prohibits the states from making laws that exclude partners of the same sex from marriage laws when the state cannot show that a legitimate state interest is furthered by the restriction.

That's more or less the usual "animus" argument, as it was in Romer v. Evans. As applied to state marriage laws that exclude partners of the same sex, I don't think it holds water. Justice Sutton was only the most recent one to show why that argument is lame.

And for whatever reason, you misstate it in a very important way. In rational basis review, the government doesn't have to show anything. The law in question is presumed constitutional, and it will be valid unless the challenger can show it is not rationally related to a legitimate government interest.
 
The Fourteenth Amendment says nothing about homosexuality, nor about any other immoral sexual perversion; nor is there anything anywhere else in the Constitution that can rationally be construed as requiring government to treat immorality and indecency as equal to morality and decency.

The equal protection clause does not mention any specific group of people. It is written very generally to cover many, all.
 
That's more or less the usual "animus" argument, as it was in Romer v. Evans. As applied to state marriage laws that exclude partners of the same sex, I don't think it holds water. Justice Sutton was only the most recent one to show why that argument is lame.

And for whatever reason, you misstate it in a very important way. In rational basis review, the government doesn't have to show anything. The law in question is presumed constitutional, and it will be valid unless the challenger can show it is not rationally related to a legitimate government interest.

They do have to counter the argument made by those restricted. They can easily show that limiting marriage based on sex is not rationally related to any government interest, since it isn't.
 
The Sixth Circuit decision exposed nothing but the convoluted beliefs of two particular Sixth Circuit judges, which wasn't really a shocker for many.

I read both the decision and the dissent, and I don't agree. I think Judge Sutton's arguments were well supported by the case law.
 
What on Earth interreligious marriages have to do with anything I'll never know.
Then that's your problem. Being against interreligious or interracial marriages back then, was JUST AS STUPID as being against homosexual marriages today. Same stupid bigotry, same stupid rationale, same stupid waste-of-time non-issue.

The Fourteenth Amendment says nothing about homosexuality, nor about any other immoral sexual perversion; nor is there anything anywhere else in the Constitution that can rationally be construed as requiring government to treat immorality and indecency as equal to morality and decency.
"No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

To allow heterosexuals to marry while not allowing homosexuals to marry, is to abridge the privileges of homosexuals and deny them equal protection of the laws. Pretty straightforward, really.
 
They do have to counter the argument made by those restricted. They can easily show that limiting marriage based on sex is not rationally related to any government interest, since it isn't.

That is your opinion, not the law. Judge Sutton discusses a number of cases that show just how little it takes to make a legitimate government interest in true rational basis review. Obviously most people thought it served some legitimate purpose to limit the definition of marriage as every state did for most of this country's history.

Next you'll be claiming states have been violating the Constitution all along by denying the right to marry where at least one partner is younger than some specified age, or is already married, or when there are more than two partners, or where the partners are more closely related by blood than some specified degree. Imagine the irrational hatred against all those would-be participants in bigamous, polygamous, and incestuous marriage, whose fundamental right to marry those bigoted majorities continue to deny!
 
I read both the decision and the dissent, and I don't agree. I think Judge Sutton's arguments were well supported by the case law.

Of course you do, because you support the bans. His arguments were way off, some amounting to, "it isn't the courts job to decide if this law is constitutional", when in fact is one of his most important jobs. Then he claimed there has been no significant changes since Baker in connection with same sex marriage, one of the stupidest claims ever made. Homosexuality was removed from the lists of mental illnesses, two different state laws restricting marriage were struck down, sodomy laws themselves were found unconstitutional, over half the states legally recognize same sex couples in marriage, and the very definition of marriage has in fact changed even in the dictionaries to include same sex couples.
 
Then that's your problem. Being against interreligious or interracial marriages back then, was JUST AS STUPID as being against homosexual marriages today. Same stupid bigotry, same stupid rationale, same stupid waste-of-time non-issue.


"No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

To allow heterosexuals to marry while not allowing homosexuals to marry, is to abridge the privileges of homosexuals and deny them equal protection of the laws. Pretty straightforward, really.

That is a very simplistic take on equal protection law. The notion that the Fourteenth Amendment was meant to protect the rights of homosexuals is ludicrous.
 
That is your opinion, not the law. Judge Sutton discusses a number of cases that show just how little it takes to make a legitimate government interest in true rational basis review. Obviously most people thought it served some legitimate purpose to limit the definition of marriage as every state did for most of this country's history.

Next you'll be claiming states have been violating the Constitution all along by denying the right to marry where at least one partner is younger than some specified age, or is already married, or when there are more than two partners, or where the partners are more closely related by blood than some specified degree. Imagine the irrational hatred against all those would-be participants in bigamous, polygamous, and incestuous marriage, whose fundamental right to marry those bigoted majorities continue to deny!

And most people at one time felt that it furthered important state interests to limit marriage by race. Many in certain states also felt that there was a legitimate state interest in not allowing those behind on child support or those in prison to get married as well. He conveniently misses those
 
That is a very simplistic take on equal protection law. The notion that the Fourteenth Amendment was meant to protect the rights of homosexuals is ludicrous.

It is meant to protect the rights of all citizens, including homosexuals.
 
Of course you do, because you support the bans. His arguments were way off, some amounting to, "it isn't the courts job to decide if this law is constitutional", when in fact is one of his most important jobs. Then he claimed there has been no significant changes since Baker in connection with same sex marriage, one of the stupidest claims ever made. Homosexuality was removed from the lists of mental illnesses, two different state laws restricting marriage were struck down, sodomy laws themselves were found unconstitutional, over half the states legally recognize same sex couples in marriage, and the very definition of marriage has in fact changed even in the dictionaries to include same sex couples.

I do not either support or oppose state laws that exclude same-sex partners. I believe that like other questions of family law, that is something for each state to determine.

Your claims about the Sixth Circuit decision make clear you did not read it very carefully. It said no such thing about Baker. Judge Sutton thoroughly discussed the rules various Supreme Court decisions have established that lower federal courts are to follow. Some federal courts have gotten into to a very bad habit of basing their decisions on guesses about what the Supreme Court might currently say about an issue, rather than letting the Supreme Court say it itself. The Sixth Circuit panel, to its credit, declined to indulge in that bad habit.
 
And most people at one time felt that it furthered important state interests to limit marriage by race. Many in certain states also felt that there was a legitimate state interest in not allowing those behind on child support or those in prison to get married as well. He conveniently misses those

It is you who are conveniently missing things. Judge Sutton's decision thoroughly discussed and distinguished all three decisions on the issues you mention--Loving, Zablocki, and Turner.
 
It is meant to protect the rights of all citizens, including homosexuals.

That is a simple-minded assertion about the intent of the Equal Protection Clause, not supported by any evidence. Nothing whatever suggests that the authors of the Fourteenth Amendment gave a damn about protecting the rights of homosexuals as a particular group.
 
Nothing whatever suggests that the authors of the Fourteenth Amendment gave a damn about protecting the rights of homosexuals as a particular group.
You like to say peoples' assertions are "simple-minded", but you're the one making simple and ill-informed arguments. The 14th Amendment was passed to ensure that the southern states would not discriminate against blacks/former slaves. If if that's not protecting the rights of a particular group, I don't know what is.

Does the 14th apply to all U.S. citizens? Yes. Are the homosexuals we're discussing here U.S. citizens? Yes. Does the 14th prohibit states from passing discriminatory laws? Yes. Are state laws that discriminate against homosexuals unconstitutional? Yes. Do anti-gay marriage laws discriminate against homosexuals? Yes. So, are state laws prohibiting gay marriage unconstitutional? Yes. It doesn't get much simpler than that.
 
It is you who are conveniently missing things. Judge Sutton's decision thoroughly discussed and distinguished all three decisions on the issues you mention--Loving, Zablocki, and Turner.

Not in a way that actually acknowledged what they covered and how it legally does relate.
 
I do not either support or oppose state laws that exclude same-sex partners. I believe that like other questions of family law, that is something for each state to determine.

Your claims about the Sixth Circuit decision make clear you did not read it very carefully. It said no such thing about Baker. Judge Sutton thoroughly discussed the rules various Supreme Court decisions have established that lower federal courts are to follow. Some federal courts have gotten into to a very bad habit of basing their decisions on guesses about what the Supreme Court might currently say about an issue, rather than letting the Supreme Court say it itself. The Sixth Circuit panel, to its credit, declined to indulge in that bad habit.

Yes it did say that about Baker. Maybe you should read it better.
 
You like to say peoples' assertions are "simple-minded", but you're the one making simple and ill-informed arguments. The 14th Amendment was passed to ensure that the southern states would not discriminate against blacks/former slaves. If if that's not protecting the rights of a particular group, I don't know what is.

Does the 14th apply to all U.S. citizens? Yes. Are the homosexuals we're discussing here U.S. citizens? Yes. Does the 14th prohibit states from passing discriminatory laws? Yes. Are state laws that discriminate against homosexuals unconstitutional? Yes. Do anti-gay marriage laws discriminate against homosexuals? Yes. So, are state laws prohibiting gay marriage unconstitutional? Yes. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

I suppose everything in the Constitution looks simple to someone who doesn't understand constitutional law. You completely ignore the all-important subject of which standard of review applies in a given case. A state law challenged on equal protection grounds is subject to strict scrutiny if it either involves a right the Court considers fundamental--e.g. voting--or makes a "suspect classifications"--i.e. singles out a certain class of people for disparate treatment. The first and most obvious suspect classification was blacks. The Court has extended this to any classification by race or national origin, but that's it. And the Sixth Circuit opinion made short work of the laughable argument that by calling marriage a fundamental right in Loving, Skinner, and even earlier decisions, it meant that to include same-sex marriages.

State laws that discriminate based on sex, intellectual disability, or legitimacy are subject to a form of heightened scrutiny that Court calls "intermediate review." With all other state laws, rational basis review applies. And contrary to what you claim, that level of review is deferential enough that it allows states to discriminate by law in all sorts of ways without violating the guarantees of either equal protection or due process. In marriage, for example, many states discriminate against cousins, let alone partners who are more closely related than that. Most, if not all, discriminate against people seventeen years old and younger. They all discriminate against against people who are already married, as well as people who want to marry more than one partner. Where is your outrage about the discrimination against those people? Why aren't those laws unconstitutional?

If Fourteenth Amendment equal protection and substantive due process were as simple as you'd like to think, there would not have been hundreds of law review articles and books written about them, nor would there be decades' worth of decisions by the Supreme Court establishing the complex rules about how they apply, to whom, what standard of review is called for, etc. The Sixth Circuit's opinion gives a good general overview of these issues, for anyone who would like to learn about them. People who latch onto simplistic explanations do so because like religious fanatics, they have already closed their minds to facts and reason.
 
It seems the constitution only applies anachronistically when convenient. Saying the verbiage in the 14th amendment only applies to former slaves and thus is null and void for any other subject is the same thing as saying thesecond amendment only applies to the right to own flintlock rifles.
 
If you want to believe that gay marriage was legal 20 years ago then you're beyond help.

Miscegenation laws have only existed in the last few hundred years.



I agree that laws banning interracial marriage and laws allowing same-sex marriage are both wrong.

:lamo

So your statement about intrusions into marriage was just bull****. Not that anyone is surprised.
 
I suppose everything in the Constitution looks simple to someone who doesn't understand constitutional law. You completely ignore the all-important subject of which standard of review applies in a given case. A state law challenged on equal protection grounds is subject to strict scrutiny if it either involves a right the Court considers fundamental--e.g. voting--or makes a "suspect classifications"--i.e. singles out a certain class of people for disparate treatment. The first and most obvious suspect classification was blacks. The Court has extended this to any classification by race or national origin, but that's it. And the Sixth Circuit opinion made short work of the laughable argument that by calling marriage a fundamental right in Loving, Skinner, and even earlier decisions, it meant that to include same-sex marriages.

State laws that discriminate based on sex, intellectual disability, or legitimacy are subject to a form of heightened scrutiny that Court calls "intermediate review." With all other state laws, rational basis review applies. And contrary to what you claim, that level of review is deferential enough that it allows states to discriminate by law in all sorts of ways without violating the guarantees of either equal protection or due process. In marriage, for example, many states discriminate against cousins, let alone partners who are more closely related than that. Most, if not all, discriminate against people seventeen years old and younger. They all discriminate against against people who are already married, as well as people who want to marry more than one partner. Where is your outrage about the discrimination against those people? Why aren't those laws unconstitutional?

If Fourteenth Amendment equal protection and substantive due process were as simple as you'd like to think, there would not have been hundreds of law review articles and books written about them, nor would there be decades' worth of decisions by the Supreme Court establishing the complex rules about how they apply, to whom, what standard of review is called for, etc. The Sixth Circuit's opinion gives a good general overview of these issues, for anyone who would like to learn about them. People who latch onto simplistic explanations do so because like religious fanatics, they have already closed their minds to facts and reason.

We can go back and read through our nation's jurisprudential history and find all the arguments you are making...They will be there.

Categorized under "Dissenting Opinions".
 
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