LOL Really? Isn't that like saying nobody survives a nursing home? Heck, lets just call them death traps since nobody gets out alive. meeeh
Speaking of which there seems to be a lot of elderly abuse in some "private" nursing homes. Does that bother you or is it just government funded hospice care?
You know there was a time when families took care of their own elderly folks and it was just part of life. Today, society has removed themselves from the painful ugliness of dying by shuttering the elderly and dying away so we don't have to see it. Gawd, I can't wait to get old.
Actually, that's a term I coined, and absolutely accurate, too. The LCP always ends up with the patient dying, which can be a good thing if it's done ethically.
Appeal to probability fallacy. Just because doctors are wrong sometimes, does not mean they are wrong most of the time. In fact, if they weren't right MUCH more often then everyone else, then we wouldn't need them.
Obviously, you've completely missed the point.
Are you suggesting we don't need doctors?
:lamo Yes, that's what I'm suggesting.
Because it sounds like you are suggesting we only need doctors when they tell you what you want to hear.
Good Lord. :roll:
This post is just so ridiculous and FULL of hyperbole, I don't even know where to begin. :lol:
Appeal to probability fallacy. Just because doctors are wrong sometimes, does not mean they are wrong most of the time. In fact, if they weren't right MUCH more often then everyone else, then we wouldn't need them. Are you suggesting we don't need doctors? Because it sounds like you are suggesting we only need doctors when they tell you what you want to hear.
This is really bugging me. Do you actually think that if the doctor gives you X amount of months/years to live, that is it? All the doctors can do is make an educated guess - THAT IS ALL. There is nothing definitive in this type of situation. Like the Cancer Center commercial says, people do NOT have an expiration date!
That educated guess is typically pretty right-on. There are a few exceptions to the rule, but there is ample statistical evidence to make a prediction, with a good degree of accuracy.
Oh so if a doctor says you have six months to live, just pull all treatment? Even against the patient's wishes so that people can save money?
Who in the hell said that? You implied that doctors are making educated guesses, as if that carries no merit, but it does carry merit. Some diseases have pretty specific and real mortality rate/time frames, especially advanced cancers.
That's what the thread is about. :shrug:
Oh so if a doctor says you have six months to live, just pull all treatment? Even against the patient's wishes so that people can save money?
Doctors should be honest. Many of them aren't. They take a Don't Ask Don't Tell approach to dying. We, all of us, deserve more than that. We deserve choice. We deserve facts, even when they are difficult to hear. We deserve to hear the wonderful things hospice can do for us and for our loved ones. We deserve to know that the chemotherapy they're giving us is not going to cure us.
We all need to face the fact that we are going to die. And our families need to face the fact that we're going to die. Every single adult should have a healthcare power of attorney. Every family should insist their loved ones get them. Every daughter: her mom, her dad, her spouse. Vice versa. Why don't we? Because we don't want to face the fact that we are going to die. And we don't want to answer the hard questions. Shame on us.
Families need to be more understanding and willing to step aside to let their loved ones make their own decisions -- while they are still lucid enough to do so. Dying people sometimes feel guilty not to keep fighting...they don't want to break their daughters', sons', spouses' hearts. Their last gift, if you will.
If patients aren't called to address their own mortality by their doctors, then these difficult decisions are left to family to make when the very end stages come. A terrible burden. Awful.
When I was in the hospital last year, a male nurse came into my room late at night, knowing I was awake, and let me know what "the racket" had been. "A 93-year-old woman coded a while ago. We performed CPR, used a defibrillator on her..." He was crying. "Her family wouldn't sign a DNR on her," he said. He was relieved they were unsuccessful, telling me that her ribs were broken, she was oxygen deprived... Said he prayed they'd be unsuccessful, as her family wanted to keep her as lucid as possible and her pain was under-medicated. *Shaking Head Here*
No thanks, Maggie says. That is just plain wrong.
But the post you quoted, was one of mine, and I said nothing about pulling all treatment if a patient has an expected lifespan of 6 more months. It really depends on the status of the patient, and not the time he is expected to live. As an example, the people I've known with lung cancer, lead a relatively meaningful life up until shortly before their death, but people with brain tumors (depending on where the tumor is), have multiple life-altering complications such as seizures, loss of motor function, loss of speech, confusion, etc.
The point you're missing is that there ARE people who WANT to fight for their lives.
Fight for their lives with what??? Apricot seeds? If a disease is incurable, it's incurable. If it's in the end stages of terminal, game over.
I am dying from liver cancer. My kidneys are failing. I am 98 years old. I want to keep living. I demand a kidney transplant. "Why won't Medicare pay for it???" Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? The scenarios being referred to by many in this thread are the very same thing.
It doesn't matter what YOU think about it. Take my word for it, I type about these people every day. People are not ready to just roll over and die because the doctor says they are going to. It is up to THEM when they decide to give in and no one else.
It doesn't matter what YOU think about it. Take my word for it, I type about these people every day. People are not ready to just roll over and die because the doctor says they are going to. It is up to THEM when they decide to give in and no one else.
Would you believe it if the NHS itself confirmed the story?
What is the Liverpool Care Pathway? - Health News - NHS Choices
Facts are facts whether Murdoch or some liberal rag tells them. What a cheap, lazy cop out to dismiss a story just because it appears in a paper with an editorial slant you don't like.
Wow. Just wow. Please cite Post #s where anyone has suggested "putting people down." Can't intelligent conversations about this important subject take place without over-the-top hyperbole?
I asked the question for verification: "You would have us start offing old people to save money?"If you didn't like it as much as I do, you would realize how preposterous it is. Of all the stupid **** we spend money on, you would have us start offing old people to save money? What the hell kind of society would we be running here?
So we won't be offing old people, just old ones whom we've determined have no purpose for continuing their lives.Not "old people", but "old people who are so sick, there is no purpose for continuing their life."
Medicare is going to be the largest budget item we have and we won't have enough to pay for it, plus everything else.
That's one of those reality things again.
You can't have all the medical care you want, especially for elderly people, the money just isn't there, without punitive taxation on everyone else.
So we won't be offing old people, just old ones whom we've determined have no purpose for continuing their lives.
You liked this post so I assumed you agreed with it.
That was the whole topic of this thread, sedating people and withdrawing life sustaining care without them or their families consenting to it.
It doesn't matter what YOU think about it. Take my word for it, I type about these people every day. People are not ready to just roll over and die because the doctor says they are going to. It is up to THEM when they decide to give in and no one else.
As much as you don't like it, there are times when society has to put prices on heads. This goes for both the saving or killing of an individual. If the individual can pay the price then, by all means, they are free to do so.
It's also up to them to pay for their own treatment. If they can do so, fine. Otherwise, society cannot be burdened with the cost of pointless treatments for people who will die anyhow just to please those who want to pretend that we somehow live in a eutopia.
You mean utopia? Good Lord! It is not utopic to expect less greed and more compassion, caring and understanding for the plight of others. I'll bet your ENTIRE outlook would change if it were you, one of your children or someone else that YOU loved. The only reason why YOU don't care is because it doesn't affect you, at least right now.
Eutopia | Define Eutopia at Dictionary.com
No. That is simply untrue. If it was me, I would want to die, and get it over with. And even if I didn't, I wouldn't want to burden other people with the expense of keeping me alive when death is eminent. That's foolish and self centered. If it was my kids, I wouldn't want them to suffer needlessly. Remember, we are talking about terminal patients here. People that are dying and are being kept alive with feeding tubes and such. If recovery is likely, that is an entirely different discussion.
If I found anything disagreeable about what was written in that article, it was that people were not being told about the change in their conditions. If someone is going to be removed from treatment, they (or their family) should be told so that they can at least attempt to muster up the cash to pay for their own treatment. Of course, it's unlikely that most people can afford an average of $10,000 each day, but they should be given that opportunity.
It's also up to them to pay for their own treatment. If they can do so, fine. Otherwise, society cannot be burdened with the cost of pointless treatments for people who will die anyhow just to please those who want to pretend that we somehow live in a eutopia.
Exactly. All healthcare is rationed. It always has been. And it always will be.
Well there are two utopias/eutopias I guess. :lol:
Utopia
Utopia is a community or society possessing highly desirable or perfect qualities. The word was coined in Greek by Sir Thomas More for his 1516 book Utopia, describing a fictional island society in the Atlantic Ocean.
Okay, you are talking about YOURSELF and what YOUR wishes would be. That does not extend to everyone else. LIKE I said, I type everyday about people are WANT to fight for their lives and don't want to just roll over and give up. You can feel whatever you want and have any ideals that you want, but that doesn't mean other people have to share them. Get it?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?