5 Things many Witnesses may come to regret sooner or later.

[LittleNipper]

We then read that Lazarus was “longing to be filled with the things that fell from the rich man’s table. But even the dogs came and licked his sores” (Luke 16:21). The wording matches the immediately preceding chapter, in which the younger son “was longing to be filled with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one was giving him anything” (15:16). The sequence “longing to be filled” followed by the name of a proverbially unclean animal (pig or dog) shows a link between pigs and dogs similar to the one we see on Jesus’s lips exclusively in Matthew’s Gospel:

Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you. (Matt. 7:6 ESV)

Since these parallels between pigs and dogs are attributed to Jesus in completely different contexts in two different Gospels, it makes most sense if they go back to Jesus himself.

In the story, the poor man dies first, as poor people typically do. Nothing is noted about his burial, and we are thus left wondering whether he is actually buried. Then the rich man dies, and his burial is noted (Luke 16:22). But whereas the rich man’s death is publicly marked, it is the poor man who receives VIP treatment and is carried by angels to Abraham’s side, or what older English translations call “Abraham’s bosom.”

Since there is no reason to suppose that Abraham in his post-mortem existence has anything other than a normal-sized body, we must assume that his side is where the most privileged person is placed in the heavenly feast, not a superlarge heavenly area where many people could fit.[1] The word “side,” or “bosom,” expresses where a close dining companion might lean (see John 1:18; 13:23). Thus, in line with Jesus’s saying that the first will be last and the last first, Lazarus, who is last in this life, gets the top place at the heavenly feast at which Abraham presides (Luke 13:28–30).

The rich man, meanwhile, is in Hades—a word that does not here convey all the complex geography of Greek mythology but does at least designate a place where people are paid back for what they have done in this life. Just as Lazarus’s sores had burned him and had been licked by the tongues of dogs, so now the rich man’s tongue is on fire, and he yearns for relief.

Then the story says that the rich man “lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham from afar” (Luke 16:23). For Bible experts, there are only two places in the Old Testament where the combination of “lift up eyes” and “from afar” occurs, both in stories about rich men. The first is about Abraham and the second about Job:

On the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes and saw the place from afar. (Gen. 22:4 ESV)

And when they [Job’s three friends] lifted up their eyes from afar, they did not recognize him [Job]. And they lifted up their voices and wept. (Job 2:12)

We have already been contextually reminded of Job by the daily feasting and the body covered with sores. We here have the combination of lifting up the eyes and seeing a particular person from afar. Even Job’s rather useless friends are moved with compassion when they see Job covered with sores. At least they try to help since they travel considerable distances to see Job. This echo makes a moral point by highlighting how the rich man had done absolutely nothing when he saw Lazarus up close daily, covered with sores.

But the story here has an even closer connection to the account of Abraham, with which it shares four features: “lift up,” “eyes,” “saw from afar,” and Abraham himself. The connection with Abraham is reinforced because he is the Old Testament character who is most often said to lift up his eyes (Gen. 18:2; 22:4, 13).[2]The connection with Abraham also makes a moral point: Abraham, like Job, was rich. Job had always helped the poor, and Abraham was hospitable to strangers. But the rich man had done neither.


Continued...

 

[LittleNipper]

The rich man now addresses Abraham three times as “Father” (Luke 16:24, 27, 30), just as three times in the previous chapter the younger son had mentally or actually addressed his father as “Father” (15:12, 18, 21). The rich man in addressing Abraham as his father wants to stress his close connection with Abraham. He also reveals in his address to Abraham that, despite having ignored him daily, he knew Lazarus’s name:

Father Abraham, have pity on me, and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue because I am in agony in this flame. (16:24)

Just as the father of Luke 15 addressed the older son as “child,” so we find that Abraham addresses the rich man as “child” (15:31; 16:25).

The rich man pleads with Abraham that he would send Lazarus to warn his “five brothers.” Why five? One reason more obvious to scribes that the storyteller would use the number five here is that there were five books of the law of Moses. Say the number “five” to a scribe, and it is hard for him not to think about his main job of copying out five particular books. This is not to say that the five brothers in the story stand for the five books of the law. It is rather that the number five may mentally trigger among scribes thoughts of the five books of the law. Further evidence that this link is not alien to the context is that according to Luke 16:16–17, Jesus has explicitly mentioned the law of Moses in two of the three verses that immediately precede this story. In 16:17 he even refers to the small pen strokes that scribes had to make on many letters as they copied the law. And in Abraham’s response to the rich man, he mentions Moses as a stand-in for the Pentateuch twice, further supporting the link (16:29, 31).

Now let us consider the rich man’s statement that he has “five brothers” while thinking at the same time of the five books of the law. In doing so, we realize that the rich man has made a mathematical mistake. If Abraham really is his father, he does not have only five brothers. After all, in the law God promised to Abraham that his descendants would be uncountable, like the stars and like the sand (Gen. 22:17). It therefore follows that if the rich man really is a child of Abraham, he must have vast numbers of brothers. Most awkwardly, Lazarus would be his brother too. Sadly, this man has been ignoring the five books of the law and so has missed this basic fact. The older son had wanted a feast without his father. Similarly, in his own lifetime the rich man had feasts excluding Lazarus, who would have been his brother if he could truly claim that Abraham was his father.

The older son and the rich man have in common that they want to reject as brother someone accepted by that brother’s father. This packs a rhetorical punch for an audience of Pharisees and scribes who likewise do not relish the prospect of accepting tax collectors and “sinners” as their own spiritual family yet want to claim God as their Father.

Thus we have another story attributed to Jesus that is powerful at the surface level even if one does not notice any of the echoes to earlier parts of the Bible. But especially for the learned hearer, it also works at a deeper level through a range of clever references to the Jewish Scriptures. The combination of simplicity and depth makes it a work of great artistry and genius. This understanding of the story is found here: https://www.namb.net/apologetics/resource/the-story-of-the-rich-man-and-lazarus/

 

[redbeer]

Luke 16:19-31 has been the focus of much controversy. Some take the story of the rich man and Lazarus to be a true, historical account of events that actually occurred; others consider it a parable or allegory.

Those who interpret this narrative as a true incident have several reasons for doing so. First, the story is never called a parable. Many other of Jesus’ stories are designated as parables, such as the sower and the seed (Luke 8:4); the prosperous farmer (Luke 12:16); the barren fig tree (Luke 13:6); and the wedding feast (Luke 14:7). Second, the story of the rich man and Lazarus uses the actual name of a person. Such specificity would set it apart from ordinary parables, in which the characters are not named.

Third, this particular story does not seem to fit the definition of a parable, which is a presentation of a spiritual truth using an earthly illustration. The story of the rich man and Lazarus presents spiritual truth directly, with no earthly metaphor. The setting for most of the story is the afterlife, as opposed to the parables, which unfold in earthly contexts.

In contrast, others maintain that this story is a parable and not an actual, real-life incident. They point out that Jesus’ standard practice was to use parables in His teaching and that the story of the rich man and Lazarus follows a string of parables in Luke 15 – 16. They do not consider the above arguments strong enough to warrant classifying the story as anything but a parable.

(One must realize that JESUS most obviously believed that HELL is a real place, or HE would NOT have designed a story of that sustained such a belief. That would be a distortion and ultimately the a lie). JESUS doesn't lie.)


This full article is found here: https://www.gotquestions.org/Luke-16-19-31-parable.html

Many do make the mistake of taking the parable of Lazarus and the rich man literally, but that's their choice. Here's a sight which shows the great symbolism's shown in this great parable of Jesus.....to save space I will not quote the entire piece:

The Real Meaning of Lazarus and the Rich Man | Ernest L. Martin, Ph.D.

A sure and quick way to inflame the wrath of some preachers and Christian laity is to say the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable. They will not have it! | Topic: Tough Texts |

www.mercyonall.org

One interesting part from the article showing the symbolism:


Summary of the Symbols

1. The Lazarus of the parable was Eleazar, Abraham’s steward (Genesis 15:2).
2. He was a Gentile "of Damascus" ("a proselyte of the gate") who "ate the crumbs."
3. He was disinherited (to become a beggar) but he remained faithful to Abraham and God.
4. When this earthly life was over, he received Abraham’s inheritance after all (he was in Abraham’s bosom) — in "everlasting habitations."
5. The Rich Man of the Parable was Judah. This son of Jacob had five literal brothers as did the Rich Man.
6. He was also a literal son of Abraham, while Eleazar (Lazarus) was not!
7. The Rich Man (Judah) also had the kingship (purple) and the priesthood (linen).
8. Yet Judah (representing God on this earth) was not the true steward of the Abrahamic blessings.
9. Though he and his literal brothers had been graced with the "oracles of God" (the Old Testament) they would not respond to the One resurrected from the dead (Christ).
10. The "great gulf" was the Jordan rift valley the dividing line between Gentile lands and the Holyland of promise (Abraham’s inheritance). Crossing the Jordan was a typical figure recognized by the Jews as a symbol of salvation.

Once these factors are recognized, all the points in the parable (with its context) fit perfectly to give us some simple but profound teachings of Christ. It shows that the physical promises of God (though excellent) are very inferior to the spiritual redemption that anyone (Jew or Gentile) can have in Christ.

‍

​

 

[LittleNipper]

Many do make the mistake of taking the parable of Lazarus and the rich man literally, but that's their choice. Here's a sight which shows the great symbolism's shown in this great parable of Jesus.....to save space I will not quote the entire piece:

The Real Meaning of Lazarus and the Rich Man | Ernest L. Martin, Ph.D.

A sure and quick way to inflame the wrath of some preachers and Christian laity is to say the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable. They will not have it! | Topic: Tough Texts |

www.mercyonall.org

One interesting part from the article showing the symbolism:


Summary of the Symbols

1. The Lazarus of the parable was Eleazar, Abraham’s steward (Genesis 15:2).
2. He was a Gentile "of Damascus" ("a proselyte of the gate") who "ate the crumbs."
3. He was disinherited (to become a beggar) but he remained faithful to Abraham and God.
4. When this earthly life was over, he received Abraham’s inheritance after all (he was in Abraham’s bosom) — in "everlasting habitations."
5. The Rich Man of the Parable was Judah. This son of Jacob had five literal brothers as did the Rich Man.
6. He was also a literal son of Abraham, while Eleazar (Lazarus) was not!
7. The Rich Man (Judah) also had the kingship (purple) and the priesthood (linen).
8. Yet Judah (representing God on this earth) was not the true steward of the Abrahamic blessings.
9. Though he and his literal brothers had been graced with the "oracles of God" (the Old Testament) they would not respond to the One resurrected from the dead (Christ).
10. The "great gulf" was the Jordan rift valley the dividing line between Gentile lands and the Holyland of promise (Abraham’s inheritance). Crossing the Jordan was a typical figure recognized by the Jews as a symbol of salvation.

Once these factors are recognized, all the points in the parable (with its context) fit perfectly to give us some simple but profound teachings of Christ. It shows that the physical promises of God (though excellent) are very inferior JESUS to the spiritual redemption that anyone (Jew or Gentile) can have in Christ.

‍

​

And some makeup their own dissertation because they cannot accept what JESUS presented so simply. GOD would not base a story upon anything that wasn't a reality. JESUS clearly referenced HELL and TORMENT. And JESUS also referenced a place of comfort. One can believe any number of things regarding who the people represent, but the fact is JESUS spoke of places which you do not wish to believe exist. And JESUS spoke regarding them as though they are a reality. And you speak regarding CHRIST as only a creation who of HIS own LOVE and ACCORD took all the sins of the world and laid them on HIMSELF ---- and the FATHER had to turn away. And then you do not worship CHRIST. That's your value not mine.

HERE is an interesting verse for you: Deuteronomy 6:4 reads: The LORD our GOD, the LORD is ONE." John 10:30 I and the FATHER are ONE.

 

[Daisy]

The rich man and Lazarus (Lu 16:19-31). The setting, in Luke 16:14, 15, shows that the money-loving Pharisees were listening and sneering. But Jesus told them: “You are those who declare yourselves righteous before men, but God knows your hearts; because what is lofty among men is a disgusting thing in God’s sight.”

The “purple and linen” in which the rich man was decked out were comparable to garb worn only by princes, nobles, and priests. (Es 8:15; Ge 41:42; Ex 28:4, 5) They were very costly. Hades, where this rich man is said to have gone, is the common grave of dead mankind. That it cannot be concluded from this parable that Hades itself is a place of blazing fire is made clear at Revelation 20:14, where death and Hades are described as being hurled into “the lake of fire.”

The death of the rich man and his being in Hades must therefore be figurative, figurative death being mentioned elsewhere in the Scriptures. (Lu 9:60; Col 2:13; 1Ti 5:6) So the fiery torment was experienced while he was figuratively dead but actually alive as a human. Fire is used in God’s Word to describe his fiery judgment messages (Jer 5:14; 23:29), and the work done by God’s prophets in declaring his judgments is said to ‘torment’ those who oppose God and his servants.—Re 11:7, 10.

Lazarus is a Grecianized form of the Hebrew name Eleazar, which means “God Has Helped.” The dogs that licked his sores were apparently scavengers that roamed the streets and were viewed as unclean. Lazarus’ being in the bosom position of Abraham indicates that he was in a position of favor (compare Joh 1:18), this figure of speech being drawn from the practice of reclining at meals in such a way that one could lean back on the bosom of a friend.—Joh 13:23-25.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002147

 

[LittleNipper]

The rich man and Lazarus (Lu 16:19-31). The setting, in Luke 16:14, 15, shows that the money-loving Pharisees were listening and sneering. But Jesus told them: “You are those who declare yourselves righteous before men, but God knows your hearts; because what is lofty among men is a disgusting thing in God’s sight.”

The “purple and linen” in which the rich man was decked out were comparable to garb worn only by princes, nobles, and priests. (Es 8:15; Ge 41:42; Ex 28:4, 5) They were very costly. Hades, where this rich man is said to have gone, is the common grave of dead mankind. That it cannot be concluded from this parable that Hades itself is a place of blazing fire is made clear at Revelation 20:14, where death and Hades are described as being hurled into “the lake of fire.”

The death of the rich man and his being in Hades must therefore be figurative, figurative death being mentioned elsewhere in the Scriptures. (Lu 9:60; Col 2:13; 1Ti 5:6) So the fiery torment was experienced while he was figuratively dead but actually alive as a human. Fire is used in God’s Word to describe his fiery judgment messages (Jer 5:14; 23:29), and the work done by God’s prophets in declaring his judgments is said to ‘torment’ those who oppose God and his servants.—Re 11:7, 10.

Lazarus is a Grecianized form of the Hebrew name Eleazar, which means “God Has Helped.” The dogs that licked his sores were apparently scavengers that roamed the streets and were viewed as unclean. Lazarus’ being in the bosom position of Abraham indicates that he was in a position of favor (compare Joh 1:18), this figure of speech being drawn from the practice of reclining at meals in such a way that one could lean back on the bosom of a friend.—Joh 13:23-25.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002147

The former rich man is TORMENTED and is thirsty (JESUS said it, not me). There is no mention of fire. If it's not a real place or no real torment ---- why would JESUS make up such a terrible story. According to YOU --- the rich man died and went to a common grave and was forgotten. Lazarus goes to a pleasant place and receive comfort. Why didn't JESUS just tell it like it is --- according to YOU. The reality is that there is a HELL and the ones that go there will have lots to think about.

The reality that JESUS did reveal was that the rich man (likely a JEW) had the money to donate to the temple and bring all the sacrifices according to the LAW of Moses. And pay the temple tax. BUT poor Lazarus had nothing but his faith in GOD. The rich man didn't care about GOD. He did what he had to and lived HIS LIFE as HE WISHED.

And this is the simple truth of the story that JESUS taught. Everyone will get what they wish. Those that ignore GOD now will be ignored. Those that seek GOD and trust in HIM alone, will find HIM. And their eternities will be entirely different.

Psalm 50:8
8 Not for your sacrifices do I rebuke you;

your burnt offerings are continually before me.

---

Hosea 6:6
6 For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

---

Psalm 51:16
16 For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering.

---

Psalm 40:6–8 In sacrifice and offering you have not delighted, but you have given me an open ear.

 

[redbeer]

And some makeup their own dissertation because they cannot accept what JESUS presented so simply. GOD would not base a story upon anything that wasn't a reality. JESUS clearly referenced HELL and TORMENT. And JESUS also referenced a place of comfort. One can believe any number of things regarding who the people represent, but the fact is JESUS spoke of places which you do not wish to believe exist. And JESUS spoke regarding them as though they are a reality. And you speak regarding CHRIST as only a creation who of HIS own LOVE and ACCORD took all the sins of the world and laid them on HIMSELF ---- and the FATHER had to turn away. And then you do not worship CHRIST. That's your value not mine.

Personally, I have no problem with those who believe God has created a place where people will spend a literal eternity in a fiery Dante hellhole.....people believe many crazy things. From the hebrew and greek languages it's clear "hell" is the grave plus the wages of sin is death not life.

I worship Christ as my Lord and the Father as my one true God.

HERE is an interesting verse for you: Deuteronomy 6:4 reads: The LORD our GOD, the LORD is ONE." John 10:30 I and the FATHER are ONE.

And.....


(Joh 17:21) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
(Joh 17:22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
(Joh 17:23) I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


I am One with the Father and Christ, they in me and I in them, we are One. Sadly, for a trinitarian this would be anathema to say these words.

 

[LittleNipper]

Personally, I have no problem with those who believe God has created a place where people will spend a literal eternity in a fiery Dante hellhole.....people believe many crazy things. From the hebrew and greek languages it's clear "hell" is the grave plus the wages of sin is death not life.

I worship Christ as my Lord and the Father as my one true God.



And.....


(Joh 17:21) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
(Joh 17:22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
(Joh 17:23) I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


I am One with the Father and Christ, they in me and I in them, we are One. Sadly, for a trinitarian this would be anathema to say these words.

I am One with the Father and Christ, they in me and I in them, we are One.

Not really. John did NOT say --- I am ONE with the FATHER and ONE with CHRIST and I am in each of them. The problem you have is that you are saying that you are worshiping GOD but you are also worshiping Christ. GOD says that is wrong. In my case I'm worshiping ONE GOD. And when I worship CHRIST, I'm worshiping the FATHER and the HOLY SPIRIT. When I worship the FATHER, I'm am worshiping the SON and the HOLY SPIRIT. These three are ONE GOD. And this GOD is three persons making up the ONE essence. What I say to one is heard by all three. I pray to my HEAVENLY FATHER with the motivation & indwelling of the HOLY SPIRIT, in the name of the LORD JESUS CHRIST.

 

[Terryj]

Personally, I have no problem with those who believe God has created a place where people will spend a literal eternity in a fiery Dante hellhole.....people believe many crazy things. From the hebrew and greek languages it's clear "hell" is the grave plus the wages of sin is death not life.

I worship Christ as my Lord and the Father as my one true God.



And.....


(Joh 17:21) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
(Joh 17:22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
(Joh 17:23) I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


I am One with the Father and Christ, they in me and I in them, we are One. Sadly, for a trinitarian this would be anathema to say these words.

I also follow the Gnostic Gospels, there's a quote in the Gospel of Thomas that goes along whit your quote "I am One with the Father and Christ, they in me and I in them, we are One."
Gospel of Thomas 108: Jesus said, "Whoever drinks from my mouth will become like me, and I myself will become like them; then, what's hidden will be revealed to them."

What Jesus is say here is that if you take in and understand in what I'm telling you then you will become "Christ like", he also makes it clear in the second part that there will be no distinction in Spirit, the same Spirit that dwells with Him will dwell within you. Once you grasp the concept of this then "what's hidden will be revealed to them."

 

[LittleNipper]

I also follow the Gnostic Gospels, there's a quote in the Gospel of Thomas that goes along whit your quote "I am One with the Father and Christ, they in me and I in them, we are One."
Gospel of Thomas 108: Jesus said, "Whoever drinks from my mouth will become like me, and I myself will become like them; then, what's hidden will be revealed to them."

What Jesus is say here is that if you take in and understand in what I'm telling you then you will become "Christ like", he also makes it clear in the second part that there will be no distinction in Spirit, the same Spirit that dwells with Him will dwell within you. Once you grasp the concept of this then "what's hidden will be revealed to them."

The "Gospel of Thomas" is a heretical book. that was most likely written a hundred years after the book of Revelation. It contradicts the four Gospels of the Biblical canon with regards to salvation and much like the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, etc., the "Gospel of Thomas" was not around for well over 1000 years. It was not the inspired work of any of the Apostles nor early disciples. I feel it is Satanically influenced in its nature. It distorts, lies, and attempts to cast doubt on the true inspired Word of GOD.

Salvation in the Gospel of Thomas​

Salvation in the Gospel of Thomas comes to those who learn from Jesus’ sayings the truth about life, the cosmos, and themselves. "When you come to know yourselves", Jesus says (ACCORDING TO THIS FAKE ACCOUNT), "then you will become known, and you will realize that it’s you who are the sons of the living father." Those who don’t know themselves will remain in spiritual poverty. And what does it mean to know oneself?

According to the Gospel of Thomas, people originated from a divine realm of permanence and intellect. They will return to that realm only if they know their true self. In another instance Jesus instructs his followers: "If they say to you, 'Where did you come from?', say to them, 'We came from the light, the place where the light came into being on its own accord and established itself and became manifest through their image."

Furthermore, sin is not the problem in the Book of Thomas - ignorance is! We are wrong in thinking that the present material Cosmos is our true home. The Gospel of Thomas compares our current state to being drunk! We are oblivious to our real situation and uninterested in the true knowledge that brings salvation.

So, what does the Gospel of Thomas say? The core message is clear: We need to shake off the wine of this world, sober up, and comprehend our real identity. Consequently, the Gospel of Thomas teaches that knowledge is the key to salvation.
An entire account is found here: https://www.bartehrman.com/gospel-of-thomas/

 

[Terryj]

The "Gospel of Thomas" is a heretical book. that was most likely written a hundred years after the book of Revelation. It contradicts the four Gospels of the Biblical canon with regards to salvation and much like the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, etc., the "Gospel of Thomas" was not around for well over 1000 years. It was not the inspired work of any of the Apostles nor early disciples. I feel it is Satanically influenced in its nature. It distorts, lies, and attempts to cast doubt on the true inspired Word of GOD.

Salvation in the Gospel of Thomas​

Salvation in the Gospel of Thomas comes to those who learn from Jesus’ sayings the truth about life, the cosmos, and themselves. "When you come to know yourselves", Jesus says (ACCORDING TO THIS FAKE ACCOUNT), "then you will become known, and you will realize that it’s you who are the sons of the living father." Those who don’t know themselves will remain in spiritual poverty. And what does it mean to know oneself?

According to the Gospel of Thomas, people originated from a divine realm of permanence and intellect. They will return to that realm only if they know their true self. In another instance Jesus instructs his followers: "If they say to you, 'Where did you come from?', say to them, 'We came from the light, the place where the light came into being on its own accord and established itself and became manifest through their image."

Furthermore, sin is not the problem in the Book of Thomas - ignorance is! We are wrong in thinking that the present material Cosmos is our true home. The Gospel of Thomas compares our current state to being drunk! We are oblivious to our real situation and uninterested in the true knowledge that brings salvation.

So, what does the Gospel of Thomas say? The core message is clear: We need to shake off the wine of this world, sober up, and comprehend our real identity. Consequently, the Gospel of Thomas teaches that knowledge is the key to salvation.
An entire account is found here: https://www.bartehrman.com/gospel-of-thomas/

The reason I find the Gospel of Thomas so interesting is that the teaching layed out in this book are inline with the principals and teaching of other beliefs, such as Hinduism and Buddhism. Belief systems that superceed Christanity by hundreds and thousands of years. The goal of just these two belief system is "spiritual attainment" and that starts from within.

As the Gospel of Thomas states: Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It’s in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it’s outside of you.” So, according to this Gospel, you are not separate from the Kingdom of God, again, this goes along with many Eastern belief systems. Only in the Abrahamic belief system, Judism, Christanity and Islam are you separated from what you call God and that you have to go through rituals to gain favor with this God.

I can understand why the Gospel of Thomas was left out of the canonized Bible, in the Gospel of Thomas you are in control of your own salvation, not the church and for this reason it was deemed heretical.

sin is not the problem in the Book of Thomas - ignorance is!, this is very true, to be ignorant in your true nature is a road going nowhere. Gospel of Thomas #70 Jesus said, "If you give birth to what's within you, what you have within you will save you. If you don't have that within [you], what you don't have within you [will] kill you."

 

[LittleNipper]

The reason I find the Gospel of Thomas so interesting is that the teaching layed out in this book are inline with the principals and teaching of other beliefs, such as Hinduism and Buddhism. Belief systems that superceed Christanity by hundreds and thousands of years. The goal of just these two belief system is "spiritual attainment" and that starts from within.

As the Gospel of Thomas states: Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It’s in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it’s outside of you.” So, according to this Gospel, you are not separate from the Kingdom of God, again, this goes along with many Eastern belief systems. Only in the Abrahamic belief system, Judism, Christanity and Islam are you separated from what you call God and that you have to go through rituals to gain favor with this God.

I can understand why the Gospel of Thomas was left out of the canonized Bible, in the Gospel of Thomas you are in control of your own salvation, not the church and for this reason it was deemed heretical.

sin is not the problem in the Book of Thomas - ignorance is!, this is very true, to be ignorant in your true nature is a road going nowhere. Gospel of Thomas #70 Jesus said, "If you give birth to what's within you, what you have within you will save you. If you don't have that within [you], what you don't have within you [will] kill you."

Salvation comes only from the LORD JESUS CHRIST. From the Gospel of John, chapter 14, verses 5-20
5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

 

[redbeer]

I also follow the Gnostic Gospels, there's a quote in the Gospel of Thomas that goes along whit your quote "I am One with the Father and Christ, they in me and I in them, we are One."
Gospel of Thomas 108: Jesus said, "Whoever drinks from my mouth will become like me, and I myself will become like them; then, what's hidden will be revealed to them."

What Jesus is say here is that if you take in and understand in what I'm telling you then you will become "Christ like", he also makes it clear in the second part that there will be no distinction in Spirit, the same Spirit that dwells with Him will dwell within you. Once you grasp the concept of this then "what's hidden will be revealed to them."

"Christ in you, the hope of glory" is a central teaching in original Christianity given through Jesus and the apostles. It permeates all the writings of Paul. At the age of 20 through a sincere prayer, this became a reality to me. But it also began a new host of problems in the world. Church leaders, preachers, priests, et al, didn't like it, said I was possessed with a devil, quickly escorted out of churches, laughed at, in comes the gossip.......I couldn't believe it, a total shocker.......I thought these were there for help in spiritual matters, lol.

Through study, I found it was in fact true and scriptural and actually a central tenant to Original Christianity. Jesus had the Father "in" him, changed today through false doctrine, to mean he is God. Yet Jesus was a Jew, strict in having only One God, not a multi-faced triune God. But they rule the day of todays mainstream Churchianity.

Christ has been glorified and he comes to us as his Father did to him......it's a true following.

 

[redbeer]

I am One with the Father and Christ, they in me and I in them, we are One.

Not really. John did NOT say --- I am ONE with the FATHER and ONE with CHRIST and I am in each of them. The problem you have is that you are saying that you are worshiping GOD but you are also worshiping Christ. GOD says that is wrong. In my case I'm worshiping ONE GOD. And when I worship CHRIST, I'm worshiping the FATHER and the HOLY SPIRIT. When I worship the FATHER, I'm am worshiping the SON and the HOLY SPIRIT. These three are ONE GOD. And this GOD is three persons making up the ONE essence. What I say to one is heard by all three. I pray to my HEAVENLY FATHER with the motivation & indwelling of the HOLY SPIRIT, in the name of the LORD JESUS CHRIST.

I follow Jesus in having only One True God, namely the Father. I worship the Father as my God. I worship Jesus as my Lord. Jesus, because of the authority and power given to him by the Father.

You worship a triune God......good luck.

 

[Logician Man]

I follow Jesus in having only One True God, namely the Father. I worship the Father as my God. I worship Jesus as my Lord. Jesus, because of the authority and power given to him by the Father.

You worship a triune God......good luck.

Why do you believe sincere God fearing, God loving trinitarian Christians need "good luck"?

What does "luck" have to do with one's attaining/receiving salvation from the Almighty Christian God?

 

[redbeer]

Why do you believe sincere God fearing, God loving trinitarian Christians need "good luck"?

What does "luck" have to do with one's attaining/receiving salvation from the Almighty Christian God?

Raising the Christ OF God INTO God will not bode well for them.

 

[Logician Man]

Raising the Christ OF God INTO God will not bode well for them.

What, precisely, will be the trinitarian Christians eternal fate on Judgement Day be if they do the bolded above while sincerely believing in, and worshipping the Christian God?

 

[redbeer]

What, precisely, will be the trinitarian Christians eternal fate on Judgement Day be if they do the bolded above while sincerely believing in, and worshipping the Christian God?

"The Christian God"......what/who is this?....is the question. So, logically it's the God of Christ, to be called the Christian God. Who is the God of Christ?

I do not stand to know what will be or not be ones fate on judgement day......that is for God and His Christ to decide. Jesus remained obedient to his Father and God up to and through the death on the cross. He showed us and told us how to pray and worship our Father and God. He was not trinitarian in any way, shape, or form. It was the religious leaders of Jesus' time who accused him of being equal to God as it remains today through their teaching of the trinity doctrine.

If we are to be disciples/followers of Jesus, wouldn't it be important to find out "who" is the God of Jesus and then to follow his lead? You are welcome to follow this large group of believers, they'll welcome you with open arms.....your choice.

 

[Logician Man]

"The Christian God"......what/who is this?....is the question. So, logically it's the God of Christ, to be called the Christian God. Who is the God of Christ?

I do not stand to know what will be or not be ones fate on judgement day......that is for God and His Christ to decide. Jesus remained obedient to his Father and God up to and through the death on the cross. He showed us and told us how to pray and worship our Father and God. He was not trinitarian in any way, shape, or form. It was the religious leaders of Jesus' time who accused him of being equal to God as it remains today through their teaching of the trinity doctrine.

If we are to be disciples/followers of Jesus, wouldn't it be important to find out "who" is the God of Jesus and then to follow his lead? You are welcome to follow this large group of believers, they'll welcome you with open arms.....your choice.

You said "wouldn't bode well" for trinitarian Christians. What, precisely, are you referencing that "won't bold well" for them?

 

[redbeer]

You said "wouldn't bode well" for trinitarian Christians. What, precisely, are you referencing that "won't bold well" for them?

Lol, it's very clear if you are paying attention......confusing the Christ OF God TO God is a problem. One in which the Christ OF God, who took his obedience to the cross will not appreciate.

 

[LittleNipper]

I follow Jesus in having only One True God, namely the Father. I worship the Father as my God. I worship Jesus as my Lord. Jesus, because of the authority and power given to him by the Father.

You worship a triune God......good luck.

But you are deserting the total sum of GOD's essence ---- namely the SON and the HOLY SPIRIT. The GODHEAD consists of the combination of all three. There is no "luck" about it. THEY are ONE and THEY are the GODHEAD. We are never to worship any created being; however, CHRIST is GOD, as is the FATHER, and HOLY SPIRIT.

Revelation 19:6-10
6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:

“Hallelujah!
For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
7 Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear.”
(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)
9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the LAMB!” And he added, “These are the true words of GOD.”
10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of JESUS. Worship GOD! For it is the SPIRIT of prophecy who bears testimony to JESUS.”

The SPIRIT of Prophecy is none other than the HOLY SPIRIT and HE is the witness who bares testimony as to who JESUS is. The entire book of REVELATION is focusing on the FACT that CHRIST is the BRIDEGROOM, the LAMB, CONQUERS the Satanic TRINITY, REIGNS SUPREME, and the visible GOD. ​

 

[LittleNipper]

Raising the Christ OF God INTO God will not bode well for them.

It's been a blessing for CHRISTian Churches for nearly 2000 years now. Yes, there have been bumps in the road but each one has brought maturity to CHRIST's CHURCH. How long have the "Jehovah's Witness" been around and how have they shared any blessing?

 

[Daisy]

It's been a blessing for CHRISTian Churches for nearly 2000 years now. Yes, there have been bumps in the road but each one has brought maturity to CHRIST's CHURCH. How long have the "Jehovah's Witness" been around and how have they shared any blessing?

Age has not a thing to do with it...the vital thing is do they teach the truth from God's Word...do they follow Christ, just as the 1st century Christians did? Who does that? We do...

Jehovah’s Witnesses are active in their ministry in over 230 lands and countries. No matter where we live, we give our primary allegiance to Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, not to the U.S. government or to any other human government.—John 15:19; 17:15, 16.

All of our teachings are based on the Bible, not on the writings of some religious leader in the United States.—1 Thessalonians 2:13.

We follow Jesus Christ, not any human leader.—Matthew 23:8-10.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/502012474

 

[LittleNipper]

Age has not a thing to do with it...the vital thing is do they teach the truth from God's Word...do they follow Christ, just as the 1st century Christians did? Who does that? We do...

Matthew 16:13-20
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.


First the gates of hell will not prevail against CHRIST's CHURCH. Now, isn't that rather odd that CHRIST calls it HIS CHURCH. You call yourselves "Jehovah's Witnesses". And you call the place you worship a Kingdom Hall. You in fact don't actually see yourselves as the CHURCH --- so are you part of CHRIST's CHURCH? I don't think you regard it as important.

Now, the CHURCH has had problems and splits' however, the CHURCH has NEVER been destroyed or ceased to exist for nearly 2000 years. That would be a proof of CHRIST's prophecy, and not something to disregard or not consider.

The final thing I find most interesting is that JESUS warns HIS chosen at that time not to tell anyone that HE was the CHRIST. That would be a prime indication that JESUS was well aware that doing so would be a declaration of HIS DEITY. And that would have interfered which what HE needed to accomplish in due course. I already know how you believe, but my hope is that you turn to JESUS and regard HIM as so much more than what you have been told by those outside CHRIST's CHURCH.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are active in their ministry in over 230 lands and countries. No matter where we live, we give our primary allegiance to Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, not to the U.S. government or to any other human government.—John 15:19; 17:15, 16.

Then you don't pay taxes? You don't pray for those in authority? The administrators of the "JEHOVAH WITNESSES" do not receive a salary?

All of our teachings are based on the Bible, not on the writings of some religious leader in the United States.—1 Thessalonians 2:13.

Your teachings maybe Bible based, but those beliefs are not found in the Bible. They are in fact your interpretation of what the Bible reveals to you. The Bible says nothing against transfusions, celebrations, not partaking from the LORD's supper. The Bible doesn't say that you will know the day and time of CHRIST's return. In fact it CLEARLY says the exact opposite. The Bible says nothing regarding torture stakes. The Witnesses' have their own Bible translation to clarify what THEY believe and not what GOD revealed through HIS WORD JESUS.

We follow Jesus Christ, not any human leader.—Matthew 23:8-10.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/502012474

But you do not. You take every opportunity to discredit exactly what HE is. Mormon say much the same as in your website ---- but you both miss the GLORY that belongs solely to the LORD JESUS CHRIST through your logic and values... You are missing so much and gaining nothing in return.

 

[Logician Man]

Lol, it's very clear if you are paying attention......confusing the Christ OF God TO God is a problem. One in which the Christ OF God, who took his obedience to the cross will not appreciate.

I am "paying attention" @redbeer. I see now you are attempting to read the mind of Christ, as well as putting your words in Jesus Christ's mouth. Words that speak negativity about your fellow Christian brethren on Christ's behalf.

You previously flat-out made a rather damning, dramatic positive claim that modern day trinitarian Christians "would kill and steal to save the trinity doctrine if the governing powers allowed it."

A positive claim you haven't, can't, and won't demonstrate to be worth it's weight in salt.

A trinitarian Christian could make the very same unproven positive claim about/against modern day non-trinitarian Christians and that claim would be every bit as valid as your claim; which is to say the claim would be a hollow, meaningless claim without any factual foundation whatsoever.