St. Paul said:14 I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that, 15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
St. Paul said:19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
Stumbler said:Mt 16:18> Jesus: I will build my church (not "write my Bible")
Mt 16:18> The gates of hell shall not prevail against the church
Mt 18:17> Jesus: church has power to discipline
Mt 18:18> Jesus: church has power to set rules
Mt 23:2-3> obey the office (not individuals; not Scripture)
Mt 28:19-20> The Great Commission (make disciples w/o Bible)
Lk 10:16> Jesus: apostles can speak for me
Jn 14:16> Spirit guides apostles to all truth
Jn 16:13> Spirit guides apostles to all truth
Jn 17:18; 20:21> Father =>Jesus => apostles
Act 2:42> doctrine, community, sacred rite
Eph 2:20> apostles + Jesus = church foundation
Eph 3:56> Spirit revealed truth to apostles
Eph 5:25-26> Jesus loved, died for, the church (not Scripture)
Eph 5:29> Jesus nourishes/cherishes the church (not Scripture)
1 Tim 3:15> church is foundation of truth (not Scripture)
Heb 13:17> obey church leaders (not Scripture)
As a bonus, here is Ephesians 2:20:
Notice here a lack of emphasis on the Bible or scripture. The emphasis throughout the Bible is the Church, not itself! The Church is not built on the Bible, but rather built upon the the apostles (and Christ, of course, the most integral part). Truth is found from the Church, and the Church is built from the apostles, not the Bible. That is not to say that the Bible is unimportant; obviously it is. However, even the Bible attests to the fact that we hold to the Church, the Church built upon the apostles; that is where we find truth.[/FONT][/COLOR]
Sorry, where the Bible and the church (any church) conflict, I go with the Bible.
The Bible disagrees with you. Where do you go now?
I once considered converting to Catholicism but I just had too many philosophical differences.
One was diminishing the Bible,
another was this notion of having faith in the Church instead of God and Christ.
I also couldn't figure out the basis of praying to Mary or the saints.
I also don't believe you must speak to God through a priest or that a priest can "forgive" your sins.
Incidentally, I don't mean this to come off as disrespectful at all. The Catholic Church, despite it's detractors, does a lot of good, and I understand it is the largest denomination of Christianity. I just saw some risk of trusting or having faith in ceremony (there's better word that I can't put my finger on right now) over trusting God.
Awesome. I'm sure I can find some church somewhere that glorifies hedonism or paganism and I can stop worrying about these pesky Biblical moral standards.
God's kingdom on the earth always has a prophet and apostles guiding it with Christ being the cornerstone.
Amos 3:
7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has all this:
https://www.lds.org/prophets-and-apostles/what-are-prophets?lang=eng
Awesome. I'm sure I can find some church somewhere that glorifies hedonism or paganism and I can stop worrying about these pesky Biblical moral standards.
When did apostolic succession end, laska?
I've answered that numerous times in the other thread. Peter, James, and John did not leave the Melchizadech priesthood authority on the earth. So when the NT apostles leave the scene, the Lord's true church was no longer on the earth. I've gone into detail in my own words in the other thread and left links that explain it better than I can. If you really want to understand it, take the time to carefully study what was provided in the other thread.
Was St. Timothy a bishop? Did he have the authority of St. Paul? How was St. Paul given his authority?
As a bonus, here is Ephesians 2:20:
Notice here a lack of emphasis on the Bible or scripture. The emphasis throughout the Bible is the Church, not itself! The Church is not built on the Bible, but rather built upon the the apostles (and Christ, of course, the most integral part). Truth is found from the Church, and the Church is built from the apostles, not the Bible. That is not to say that the Bible is unimportant; obviously it is. However, even the Bible attests to the fact that we hold to the Church, the Church built upon the apostles; that is where we find truth.[/FONT][/COLOR]
Acts 9 said:10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Anani′as. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Anani′as.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” 11 And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for a man of Tarsus named Saul; for behold, he is praying, 12 and he has seen a man named Anani′as come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” 13 But Anani′as answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to thy saints at Jerusalem; 14 and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon thy name.” 15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; 16 for I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.” 17 So Anani′as departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came, has sent me that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized, 19 and took food and was strengthened.
Forgot to add, when someone in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints receives the priesthood, they are given a paper that gives the line of priesthood holders they received it from all the way back to Joseph Smith or Oliver Cowdery, who both received the Aaronic priesthood from John the Baptist, and the Melchizadech priesthood from Peter, James, and John, in 1829, shortly before The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was organized.
Sounds like there's a papist among us.
Are you interested in the truth or in puffing yourself up?
So we have two lines of apostolic succession concurrently? Someone must be wrong. And since the apostles conferred their authority in the early Church as the Bible clearly shows, what does that mean about the "apostolic succession" of the Mormon church?
Normally both. Why do you ask ?
:doh
You've been missing the point completely. Try and comprehend this, from the LDS view the New Testament apostles did not leave the priesthood keys to successors.
Because it seems to be exclusively the latter, at least in this instance.
I don't see how you could come to that conclusion. In what way am I puffing myself up?
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