• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

1 Timothy 3:15

phattonez

Catholic
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
30,870
Reaction score
4,246
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
St. Paul said:
14 I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that, 15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

As a bonus, here is Ephesians 2:20:

St. Paul said:
19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.


Notice here a lack of emphasis on the Bible or scripture. The emphasis throughout the Bible is the Church, not itself! The Church is not built on the Bible, but rather built upon the the apostles (and Christ, of course, the most integral part). Truth is found from the Church, and the Church is built from the apostles, not the Bible. That is not to say that the Bible is unimportant; obviously it is. However, even the Bible attests to the fact that we hold to the Church, the Church built upon the apostles; that is where we find truth.
 

phattonez

Catholic
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
30,870
Reaction score
4,246
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
And the following is a list of other verses totally applicable to the theme of this thread.

Stumbler said:
Mt 16:18> Jesus: I will build my church (not "write my Bible")
Mt 16:18> The gates of hell shall not prevail against the church
Mt 18:17> Jesus: church has power to discipline
Mt 18:18> Jesus: church has power to set rules
Mt 23:2-3> obey the office (not individuals; not Scripture)
Mt 28:19-20> The Great Commission (make disciples w/o Bible)
Lk 10:16> Jesus: apostles can speak for me
Jn 14:16> Spirit guides apostles to all truth
Jn 16:13> Spirit guides apostles to all truth
Jn 17:18; 20:21> Father =>Jesus => apostles
Act 2:42> doctrine, community, sacred rite
Eph 2:20> apostles + Jesus = church foundation
Eph 3:56> Spirit revealed truth to apostles
Eph 5:25-26> Jesus loved, died for, the church (not Scripture)
Eph 5:29> Jesus nourishes/cherishes the church (not Scripture)
1 Tim 3:15> church is foundation of truth (not Scripture)
Heb 13:17> obey church leaders (not Scripture)

Catholic Answers Forums - View Single Post - 1 Timothy 3:15
 

X Factor

Anti-Socialist
Dungeon Master
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 1, 2010
Messages
60,276
Reaction score
31,076
Location
El Paso Strong
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Conservative
As a bonus, here is Ephesians 2:20:



Notice here a lack of emphasis on the Bible or scripture. The emphasis throughout the Bible is the Church, not itself! The Church is not built on the Bible, but rather built upon the the apostles (and Christ, of course, the most integral part). Truth is found from the Church, and the Church is built from the apostles, not the Bible. That is not to say that the Bible is unimportant; obviously it is. However, even the Bible attests to the fact that we hold to the Church, the Church built upon the apostles; that is where we find truth.[/FONT][/COLOR]

Sorry, where the Bible and the church (any church) conflict, I go with the Bible.
 

phattonez

Catholic
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
30,870
Reaction score
4,246
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Sorry, where the Bible and the church (any church) conflict, I go with the Bible.

The Bible disagrees with you. Where do you go now?
 

X Factor

Anti-Socialist
Dungeon Master
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 1, 2010
Messages
60,276
Reaction score
31,076
Location
El Paso Strong
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Conservative
I once considered converting to Catholicism but I just had too many philosophical differences. One was diminishing the Bible, another was this notion of having faith in the Church instead of God and Christ. I also couldn't figure out the basis of praying to Mary or the saints. I also don't believe you must speak to God through a priest or that a priest can "forgive" your sins.

Incidentally, I don't mean this to come off as disrespectful at all. The Catholic Church, despite it's detractors, does a lot of good, and I understand it is the largest denomination of Christianity. I just saw some risk of trusting or having faith in ceremony (there's better word that I can't put my finger on right now) over trusting God.
 

X Factor

Anti-Socialist
Dungeon Master
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 1, 2010
Messages
60,276
Reaction score
31,076
Location
El Paso Strong
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Conservative
The Bible disagrees with you. Where do you go now?

Awesome. I'm sure I can find some church somewhere that glorifies hedonism or paganism and I can stop worrying about these pesky Biblical moral standards.
 

phattonez

Catholic
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
30,870
Reaction score
4,246
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
I once considered converting to Catholicism but I just had too many philosophical differences.

Alright, let's go through them.

One was diminishing the Bible,

CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church) 103: For this reason, the Church has always venerated the Scriptures as she venerates the Lord's Body. She never ceases to present to the faithful the bread of life, taken from the one table of God's Word and Christ's Body.

another was this notion of having faith in the Church instead of God and Christ.

This seems unfounded. Can you elaborate? We have faith in the Church because we have faith in God and Christ, so I don't understand this notion of having faith in the Church instead of Christ.

I also couldn't figure out the basis of praying to Mary or the saints.

James 5:16: Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

2 Thessalonians 3:1-2: Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed on and triumph, as it did among you, and that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men; for not all have faith.

We pray to those in Heaven to intercede for us to God. The prayers of a righteous man availeth much.

I also don't believe you must speak to God through a priest or that a priest can "forgive" your sins.

John 20: “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Is Confession in Scripture? | Catholic Answers

Incidentally, I don't mean this to come off as disrespectful at all. The Catholic Church, despite it's detractors, does a lot of good, and I understand it is the largest denomination of Christianity. I just saw some risk of trusting or having faith in ceremony (there's better word that I can't put my finger on right now) over trusting God.

You don't sound disrespectful at all.
 

phattonez

Catholic
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
30,870
Reaction score
4,246
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Awesome. I'm sure I can find some church somewhere that glorifies hedonism or paganism and I can stop worrying about these pesky Biblical moral standards.

Except that you think that the Bible is truth, and the Bible teaches the authority of the Church.
 

phattonez

Catholic
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
30,870
Reaction score
4,246
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative

ecofarm

global liberation
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Messages
132,305
Reaction score
42,301
Location
Miami
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Awesome. I'm sure I can find some church somewhere that glorifies hedonism or paganism and I can stop worrying about these pesky Biblical moral standards.

You'll need money and power.
 

laska

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 25, 2005
Messages
3,237
Reaction score
402
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
When did apostolic succession end, laska?

I've answered that numerous times in the other thread. Peter, James, and John did not leave the Melchizadech priesthood authority on the earth. So when the NT apostles leave the scene, the Lord's true church was no longer on the earth. I've gone into detail in my own words in the other thread and left links that explain it better than I can. If you really want to understand it, take the time to carefully study what was provided in the other thread.
 

phattonez

Catholic
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
30,870
Reaction score
4,246
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
I've answered that numerous times in the other thread. Peter, James, and John did not leave the Melchizadech priesthood authority on the earth. So when the NT apostles leave the scene, the Lord's true church was no longer on the earth. I've gone into detail in my own words in the other thread and left links that explain it better than I can. If you really want to understand it, take the time to carefully study what was provided in the other thread.

Was St. Timothy a bishop? Did he have the authority of St. Paul? How was St. Paul given his authority?
 

laska

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 25, 2005
Messages
3,237
Reaction score
402
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Was St. Timothy a bishop? Did he have the authority of St. Paul? How was St. Paul given his authority?

In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, all worthy male members receive first the Aaronic Priesthood, usually young men between age of 12-18 and new adult converts, and then receive the Melchizadech priesthood at the age of 18 or later. I assume Paul received his authority as an apostle like they do now in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints:

“An 'apostle' is an ordained leader in the Melchizedek Priesthood in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Apostles are chosen through inspiration by the President of the Church, sustained by the general membership of the Church, and ordained by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles by the laying on of hands. . . . In addition to serving as witnesses of Jesus Christ to all the world (D&C 107:23), as Jesus' apostles did, members of the current Quorum of the Twelve Apostles hold the keys of the priesthood--that is, the rights of presidency (D&C 107:35; cf. 124:128)” (Encyclopedia of Mormonism [1992], 1:59-60).


The following is the role of a bishop. If you'll notice at the head of the entire Church is a prophet and two counselors forming the first presidency, and there is a bishop and two counselors forming the leadership at the local level. Both are symbolic of the Godhead, with Heavenly Father(prophet represents), Jesus(1st counselor), and the Holy Ghost(2nd counselor). The LDS differ from Catholics in that the Godhead is known to be three separate persons united as one in purpose, not three in one being.


"A bishop is the leader of a local congregation (known as a ward) with duties similar to those of a pastor, priest or rabbi. In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, this position is unpaid.

Each bishop is assisted by two counselors. Together, this bishopric oversees the spiritual and social needs of their ward members. The bishop helps each member of his congregation in their efforts to follow Jesus Christ. In addition to spiritual matters, a bishop helps members who are struggling financially or in other ways to become self-reliant through welfare assistance. A bishop also oversees practical matters such as records, reports, finances and the meetinghouse where members meet.

Bishops typically serve for about five years. Bishops report to stake presidents, and these local leaders have a significant amount of local autonomy to make decisions regarding the members in their wards and stakes." Bishop
 

laska

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 25, 2005
Messages
3,237
Reaction score
402
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Forgot to add, when someone in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints receives the priesthood, they are given a paper that gives the line of priesthood holders they received it from all the way back to Joseph Smith or Oliver Cowdery, who both received the Aaronic priesthood from John the Baptist, and the Melchizadech priesthood from Peter, James, and John, in 1829, shortly before The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was organized.
 

TobyOne

I am the pretty one.
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 24, 2014
Messages
6,390
Reaction score
2,286
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Sounds like there's a papist among us.


As a bonus, here is Ephesians 2:20:



Notice here a lack of emphasis on the Bible or scripture. The emphasis throughout the Bible is the Church, not itself! The Church is not built on the Bible, but rather built upon the the apostles (and Christ, of course, the most integral part). Truth is found from the Church, and the Church is built from the apostles, not the Bible. That is not to say that the Bible is unimportant; obviously it is. However, even the Bible attests to the fact that we hold to the Church, the Church built upon the apostles; that is where we find truth.[/FONT][/COLOR]
 

phattonez

Catholic
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
30,870
Reaction score
4,246
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
St. Timothy was given his authority from St. Paul. "Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the elders laid their hands upon you." (1 Timothy 4:14). And "Hence I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands" (2 Timothy 1:6).

And how did St. Paul receive his authority? Remember that St. Paul had a direct vision of Jesus. Even still, look at how he regained his sight:

Acts 9 said:
10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Anani′as. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Anani′as.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” 11 And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for a man of Tarsus named Saul; for behold, he is praying, 12 and he has seen a man named Anani′as come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” 13 But Anani′as answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to thy saints at Jerusalem; 14 and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon thy name.” 15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; 16 for I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.” 17 So Anani′as departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came, has sent me that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized, 19 and took food and was strengthened.


Only after Ananias (a disciple) laid his hands on Paul did he receive his sight. Only after this laying on of hands did he preach the Gospel.

So now we are left with this. The apostles clearly conferred their authority on others. This is how St. Paul received his authority, and how St. Timothy received his authority. Authority was passed on, and even the Mormons agree that authority can be passed on. So we know that authority was passed on. Therefore, again I ask you, why do you believe that this succession ended? You claimed that it was because the apostles did not pass on their authority, but the fact that they did is documented clearly in the Bible. Again I will ask, how do you defeat the claim of the Catholic Church to apostolic succession?
 

phattonez

Catholic
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
30,870
Reaction score
4,246
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Forgot to add, when someone in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints receives the priesthood, they are given a paper that gives the line of priesthood holders they received it from all the way back to Joseph Smith or Oliver Cowdery, who both received the Aaronic priesthood from John the Baptist, and the Melchizadech priesthood from Peter, James, and John, in 1829, shortly before The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was organized.

So we have two lines of apostolic succession concurrently? Someone must be wrong. And since the apostles conferred their authority in the early Church as the Bible clearly shows, what does that mean about the "apostolic succession" of the Mormon church?
 

laska

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 25, 2005
Messages
3,237
Reaction score
402
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
So we have two lines of apostolic succession concurrently? Someone must be wrong. And since the apostles conferred their authority in the early Church as the Bible clearly shows, what does that mean about the "apostolic succession" of the Mormon church?

:doh

You've been missing the point completely. Try and comprehend this, from the LDS view the New Testament apostles did not leave the priesthood keys to successors. So the Roman Catholic church has never had the keys like they claim. The Catholic scholar in the quote I gave in the other thread below, understood what I've been trying to say. If the New Testament apostles did not leave successors with the keys of the priesthood, or if they did and they were lost because of unrighteousness(you can be given the priesthood, but you lose it if you are unrighteous), if no successors, then the only way to get it back is for the Heavens to restore it.

“Many years ago a learned man, a member of the Roman Catholic Church, came to Utah and spoke from the stand of the Salt Lake Tabernacle. I became well acquainted with him, and we conversed freely and frankly. A great scholar, with perhaps a dozen languages at his tongue’s end, he seemed to know all about theology, law, literature, science and philosophy. One day he said to me: ‘You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don’t even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Catholic Church. The issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, you are wrong; if you are right, we are wrong; and that’s all there is to it. The Protestants haven’t a leg to stand on. For if we are wrong, they are wrong with us, since they were a part of us and went out from us; while if we are right, they are apostates whom we cut off long ago. If we have the apostolic succession from St. Peter, as we claim, there is no need of Joseph Smith and Mormonism; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism’s attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the gospel in latter days.’” (A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, LeGrand Richards, Deseret Book Co., 1958, pp. 3–4.)
 

phattonez

Catholic
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
30,870
Reaction score
4,246
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
:doh

You've been missing the point completely. Try and comprehend this, from the LDS view the New Testament apostles did not leave the priesthood keys to successors.

This is demonstrably false. The apostles passed on their authority by the laying on of hands. This is how St. Timothy received his authority, as I showed previously. According to your theory, then, St. Paul was a liar about passing on authority to St. Timothy, and thus the Bible is errant. Is this the official position of the Mormon church?
 

TobyOne

I am the pretty one.
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 24, 2014
Messages
6,390
Reaction score
2,286
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I don't see how you could come to that conclusion. In what way am I puffing myself up?

Because it seems to be exclusively the latter, at least in this instance.
 

phattonez

Catholic
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
30,870
Reaction score
4,246
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
I don't see how you could come to that conclusion. In what way am I puffing myself up?

Your first in this thread comment was snark and no substance.
 
Top Bottom