1 Timothy 3:15

[phattonez]

The holy spirit comes at the call of the saved. the grace that is in them is the holy spirit and the salvation of God.
You receive the Holy spirit on salvation not during baptism. baptism is the outward expression and public acknowledgement of being saved.

Acts 8 Commentary - Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible

15, 16. prayed . . . they might receive the Holy Ghost. (For only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus)--As the baptism of adults presupposed "the renewing of the Holy Ghost" ( Titus 3:5-7 , 1 Corinthians 12:13 ), of which the profession of faith had to be taken for evidence, this communication of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the apostles' hands was clearly a superadded thing; and as it was only occasional, so it was invariably attended with miraculous manifestations (see Acts 10:44 , where it followed Peter's preaching; and Acts 19:1-7 , where, as here, it followed the laying on of hands). In the present case an important object was served by it--"the sudden appearance of a body of baptized disciples in Samaria, by the agency of one who was not an apostle, requiring the presence and power of apostles to perform their special part as the divinely appointed founders of the Church" [ALFORD]. Beautiful, too, was the spectacle exhibited of Jew and Samaritan, one in Christ.


They had been baptized but had not accept the Lord Christ as their savior. which is what Paul and John were doing in this verse.
Once saved you receive the Holy Spirit.

Utter garbage. Why would they be baptized if they had not accepted Christ?

 

[phattonez]

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.-Mathew 16:25

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ in the New testament could either save their mortal lives by rejecting the true Church but they would lose out on eternal life or remain faithful to the Church which meant eventual martyrdom but gaining eternal life.

You first have to disprove that the Catholic Church is not the true Church, because if it is then the Mormon church is based on a lie. So I still wait for you to prove this complete destruction of the early Church.

Saints is a term used for the members of the New Testament Church. The apostle John in the Book of Revelations tells us that the Church would be "overcome" by the prince of this world:
7 "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."-Revelation 13:7

NB: We agree that there will be a Great Apostasy. Pointing out these verses proves nothing. What I care about is whether the Great Apostasy has already come about.

The above verses fit the LDS view very nicely that the authorized apostles and faithful saints would be hated and killed while there would be many false "Christian" leaders that would deceive many. That the result would be a bunch of false Christian sects. And just prior to Christ's Second Coming, the Church of Jesus Christ would be restored, and missionaries sent out one last time to teach the gospel, and then Christ will return.

So you still have not proven that the Great Apostasy happened. Understood.

 

[phattonez]

Well...

2 Timothy 3:16


Romans 15:4


And many others besides.

Notice how neither of your verses show that individual interpretation is the way to discover truth. Rather, we hear explicitly that the Church is the bulwark of truth.

 

[phattonez]

Did the Bible exist then?

No, it did not, thus more evidence of the authority of the Church and the failure of sola scriptura.

 

[phattonez]

The Bible is the inspired Word of God. Read II Timothy III. We are living in those days now.

The issue is of whether individuals should interpret the Bible and neglect the teachings of the Church; it is not an issue of inspiration. Even inspired words can be misinterpreted.

 

[Brich]

Read that scripture.

 

[LowDown]

Notice how neither of your verses show that individual interpretation is the way to discover truth. Rather, we hear explicitly that the Church is the bulwark of truth.

2 Timothy especially speaks to the individual learning and receiving wisdom from scripture. In this particular passage there is no mention of the Church, so one might conclude that it is not a necessary path to wisdom. I don't know anyone who would dispute that the Church is a path to wisdom, though.

This is interesting to me because I've never seen the doctrine that de-emphasizes scripture and elevates the Church defended before. Protestants are suspicious of this doctrine because it is tantamount to putting all of one's faith in the Church hierarchy, and the hierarchy is from whence all the abuses that the reformation criticized came.

 

[phattonez]

2 Timothy especially speaks to the individual learning and receiving wisdom from scripture. In this particular passage there is no mention of the Church, so one might conclude that it is not a necessary path to wisdom. I don't know anyone who would dispute that the Church is a path to wisdom, though.

Look two verses prior to what you quoted:
"But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it"

Whom do you think St. Timothy learned and studied scriptures from?

This is interesting to me because I've never seen the doctrine that de-emphasizes scripture and elevates the Church defended before. Protestants are suspicious of this doctrine because it is tantamount to putting all of one's faith in the Church hierarchy, and the hierarchy is from whence all the abuses that the reformation criticized came.

The Church is called the bulwark of truth, not the Bible. The Bible is still obviously incredibly important, but there is no other way to construe St. Paul's message.

 

[laska]

When the 14 yo Joseph Smith went into the woods to pray and ask God which church is true, Heavenly Father and Christ visited him and told him none of them were. Joseph had never considered the possibility that none of them were true.

The Sermon on the Mount

7 ¶Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Joseph Smith had the correct methodology in finding truth. He prayed and asked God. Because he was sincere and had great faith in the scripture promise God revealed to him something he had never considered, none of the churches were true. The missionaries of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints always stress to the people they teach that they must pray and ask God if it is the true church. The end of the Book of Mormon is the following promise:



4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.-Moroni 10:4

According to the Christian sects, they are the way to Christ and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints with their tiny 16 million or whatever members worldwide, a tiny fraction compared to the rest of the Christian world, are not real Christians, are led by false prophets, and pretty much none recognize the LDS baptisms. Some of these "Christian" parents won't even let their kids watch Shaytards youtube videos because they are Mormons! And if you ask pretty much any Protestant preacher if you should pray if the BoM and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the true Church, watch them do everything in their power to talk you out of it. But in the Sermon on the Mount the picture the Lord paints is not one where the popular Christian sects that represent like 99% of those who call themselves Christians have the truth warning about a small group that is a false Christ, it is just the opposite:

13 ¶Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 ¶Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’sclothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.





21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 ¶Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.


All of this is totally consistent with the LDS view that I've been presenting.

 

[brothern]

When the 14 yo Joseph Smith went into the woods to pray ...

Today I learned that Mormons believe a young 14 year old boy went into the woods to "pray."

:roll:

 

[laska]

I posted these verses earlier but wanted to highlight the last sentence where Christ tells the apostles that the gospel will be preached to all nations prior to His Second coming.

Mathew 24:

3 ¶And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


These missionaries from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is fulfilling this prophecy. Right now there are about 80,000 full time LDS missionaries.

 

[laska]

Today I learned that Mormons believe a young 14 year old boy went into the woods to "pray."

:roll:

Solid contribution.

 

[laska]

Christ's true servants are called by God, and have been given His authority to teach the gospel. They are guided by the Holy Ghost.



Joseph and Oliver receiving the Melchizadech priesthood from Peter, James, and John.




13 ¶Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The gate is baptism into The Church of Jesus Christ by those with priesthood authority, and receiving the Gift of The Holy Ghost. Below is a link to a great article that will give a greater understanding of these verses.

‘for except ye are born of water and of the Spirit ye cannot enter into the kingdom of God,’ [see John 3:5]: https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-7?lang=eng

 

[ludin]

Look two verses prior to what you quoted:
"But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it"

Whom do you think St. Timothy learned and studied scriptures from?



The Church is called the bulwark of truth, not the Bible. The Bible is still obviously incredibly important, but there is no other way to construe St. Paul's message.

No Christ is the way the Truth and the light. not the church. A church without the truth of Christ is not truth nor is it a church i want to attend.
The church is to present Christ message, but the church itself is not truth.

 

[ludin]

Christ's true servants are called by God, and have been given His authority to teach the gospel. They are guided by the Holy Ghost.

View attachment 67172700

Joseph and Oliver receiving the Melchizadech priesthood from Peter, James, and John.

View attachment 67172701


13 ¶Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The gate is baptism into The Church of Jesus Christ by those with priesthood authority, and receiving the Gift of The Holy Ghost. Below is a link to a great article that will give a greater understanding of these verses.

‘for except ye are born of water and of the Spirit ye cannot enter into the kingdom of God,’ [see John 3:5]: https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-7?lang=eng

Unfortuantly there are things that are believed by the LDS that are clearly anti scripture and cannot be found anywhere in scripture.
i would post them but well all you would do is claim they are anti LDS which isn't true.

same problem that JW have. any information posted that contradicts their view is anti-JW vs being biblical and their view is just not correct.

A Comparison Between Christian Doctrine and Mormon Doctrine|Mormonism Does Not Agree with the Bible | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

here are just a few of the differences PS if you look most of them are quoted by joseph smith himself.
if you read the link you will see the difference, but somehow i think you will ignore it or just claim anti-LDS.

 

[laska]

Unfortuantly there are things that are believed by the LDS that are clearly anti scripture and cannot be found anywhere in scripture.
i would post them but well all you would do is claim they are anti LDS which isn't true.

same problem that JW have. any information posted that contradicts their view is anti-JW vs being biblical and their view is just not correct.

A Comparison Between Christian Doctrine and Mormon Doctrine|Mormonism Does Not Agree with the Bible | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

here are just a few of the differences PS if you look most of them are quoted by joseph smith himself.
if you read the link you will see the difference, but somehow i think you will ignore it or just claim anti-LDS.

You are right, I'm not going to waste an hour responding to that complete retarded ignorance that the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry spits out against the LDS. I've responded to those insanely stupid charges from your link in other threads. You can read the thread posted by Phatonez awhile back titled something like problems with Joseph Smith, can't remember exactly the title, just search for a thread he started about Mormons. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only church completely consistent with the Bible.

 

[phattonez]

No Christ is the way the Truth and the light. not the church. A church without the truth of Christ is not truth nor is it a church i want to attend.
The church is to present Christ message, but the church itself is not truth.

Look at what the Bible states explicitly.

"if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."

Is St. Paul wrong? Was this writing not inspired?

 

[phattonez]

You are right, I'm not going to waste an hour responding to that complete retarded ignorance that the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry spits out against the LDS. I've responded to those insanely stupid charges from your link in other threads. You can read the thread posted by Phatonez awhile back titled something like problems with Joseph Smith, can't remember exactly the title, just search for a thread he started about Mormons. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only church completely consistent with the Bible.

Yet I'm still waiting for you to prove the Great Apostasy.

 

[laska]

Yet I'm still waiting for you to prove the Great Apostasy.

Wow brilliant.

 

[ludin]

You are right, I'm not going to waste an hour responding to that complete retarded ignorance that the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry spits out against the LDS. I've responded to those insanely stupid charges from your link in other threads. You can read the thread posted by Phatonez awhile back titled something like problems with Joseph Smith, can't remember exactly the title, just search for a thread he started about Mormons. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only church completely consistent with the Bible.

as i said you won't take the time to educate yourself on what joseph smith said was anti-biblical.
no they are not. they teach things that are not even in the bible so if they are teaching things that are not in the bible how can they be consistant with the bible?

this is the first problem with LDS.

He claimed to have received a personal visit from God the Father and Jesus Christ who told him that all churches and their creeds were an abomination.

Read more: What is Mormonism? What do Mormons believe?

I do not think the a guy 1800 years later had more knowledge and was more consistant than the people that were disciples of the apostles.
so in order to believe the LDS you have to believe the joseph smith knows more than what the apostles and what their disciples knew.

the next problem with Mr. Smith is this.

Joseph Smith then set out to begin a brand-new religion that claims to be the “only true church on earth.”

This is simply unbiblical all the way around. the true church are those that believe in Christ Jesus and have repented of their sins. That is the true church not what joseph smith thinks it is.

the next issue with joseph smith and the LDS is this:
He has not always been the Supreme Being of the universe, but attained that status through righteous living and persistent effort.

this is clearly anti-biblical. God is the supreme being ruler and creator. He was never just a man. He is the alpha and omega the begining and the end. he is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

next up is the LDS view of heaven.
Mormons believe that there are different levels or kingdoms in the afterlife: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, the telestial kingdom, and outer darkness.

no where in scripture is such a thing described.

the largest issue is this
Mormon leaders have taught that Jesus’ incarnation was the result of a physical relationship between God the Father and Mary.

again there is nothing found in scripture that supports this. the only place you can find this is the book of mormon and it was added to the book not a part of the orginal.

so no the LDS is far from consistant with the bible. they might be consistant with their bible, but they are not consistant with cannon.

 

[laska]

as i said you won't take the time to educate yourself on what joseph smith said was anti-biblical.
no they are not. they teach things that are not even in the bible so if they are teaching things that are not in the bible how can they be consistant with the bible?

this is the first problem with LDS.

He claimed to have received a personal visit from God the Father and Jesus Christ who told him that all churches and their creeds were an abomination.

Read more: What is Mormonism? What do Mormons believe?

I do not think the a guy 1800 years later had more knowledge and was more consistant than the people that were disciples of the apostles.
so in order to believe the LDS you have to believe the joseph smith knows more than what the apostles and what their disciples knew.

the next problem with Mr. Smith is this.

Joseph Smith then set out to begin a brand-new religion that claims to be the “only true church on earth.”

This is simply unbiblical all the way around. the true church are those that believe in Christ Jesus and have repented of their sins. That is the true church not what joseph smith thinks it is.

the next issue with joseph smith and the LDS is this:
He has not always been the Supreme Being of the universe, but attained that status through righteous living and persistent effort.

this is clearly anti-biblical. God is the supreme being ruler and creator. He was never just a man. He is the alpha and omega the begining and the end. he is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

next up is the LDS view of heaven.
Mormons believe that there are different levels or kingdoms in the afterlife: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, the telestial kingdom, and outer darkness.

no where in scripture is such a thing described.

the largest issue is this
Mormon leaders have taught that Jesus’ incarnation was the result of a physical relationship between God the Father and Mary.

again there is nothing found in scripture that supports this. the only place you can find this is the book of mormon and it was added to the book not a part of the orginal.

so no the LDS is far from consistant with the bible. they might be consistant with their bible, but they are not consistant with cannon.

You should stop reading anti-Mormon material. Lowers your IQ.

 

[ludin]

Wow brilliant.

it is brilliant that you haven't answered it or proved that it happened.

 

[laska]

it is brilliant that you haven't answered it or proved that it happened.

Apparently you have not read many of my posts over the years. I've did that and done that. All it is is a diversion. If you want to be led astray by retarded people like that, and do not have the intelligence to see through their crap, so be it.

 

[ludin]

Look at what the Bible states explicitly.

"if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."

Is St. Paul wrong? Was this writing not inspired?

The church is the Christian of faith. not the building. again there are plenty of church's but not all of them teach truth look at the JW for example.
again taking 1 bible verse is not totally accurate as the entire passage is needed for context.

you need to read vs 1-14 to understand what he is talking about in verse 15.
vs 1-14 deal with qualifications for overseers and deacons of the church and how they are to conduct themselves not only in the church but for the example of all the people that they are over.

 

[phattonez]

Wow brilliant.

You have convinced no one on this great apostasy because it hasn't happened. The apostles left successors, and their successors left successors, and so on. This line of authority going back to Christ has never ended. Never. You previously claimed that the apostles didn't leave authority. I proved that to be false. You then claimed that while they did leave authority, that eventually it died out. I showed that you have no evidence for such a claim. Since then all you've done is post pro-Mormon material, which, while the Mormons do plenty of good, misses the point. We are asking about the truth of the Mormon claims. You've been unable to prove them, and thus we're still left with the Catholic Church which (besides the Orthodox) is the only Church that can claim apostolic succession to the time of Jesus.