• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Yugoslavia, defused or just dormant?

Chris

Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
120
Reaction score
0
Location
Ontario, Canada
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
I was reading a newspaper article a little while back about a journalist's first hand accounts traveling and speaking with people throughout the former Yugoslav countires. It's been almost 15 years now since the fighting first began, yet hostilities still run high among many citizens, especially in Bosnia and Kosovo.

I am grateful to the peacekeepers who no doubt saved many lives during the conflicts and while not the most desirable response, in retrospect I'm glad the NATO countires eventually took military action. However I am forced to stop and reflect on the key question "has anything really been resolved?" If left to their own devices would the people in the former hot spots be any more reasonable or compromising than they were back than?

Given the kind of charged responses this guy got, it doesn't sound promising. What do you think? What more do you think could or should be done to improve the current situation in the former Yugoslavia?
 

TimmyBoy

Banned
Joined
Sep 23, 2005
Messages
1,466
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Chris said:
I was reading a newspaper article a little while back about a journalist's first hand accounts traveling and speaking with people throughout the former Yugoslav countires. It's been almost 15 years now since the fighting first began, yet hostilities still run high among many citizens, especially in Bosnia and Kosovo.

I am grateful to the peacekeepers who no doubt saved many lives during the conflicts and while not the most desirable response, in retrospect I'm glad the NATO countires eventually took military action. However I am forced to stop and reflect on the key question "has anything really been resolved?" If left to their own devices would the people in the former hot spots be any more reasonable or compromising than they were back than?

Given the kind of charged responses this guy got, it doesn't sound promising. What do you think? What more do you think could or should be done to improve the current situation in the former Yugoslavia?
I spent alot of time in Bosnia. I think the wars in the Former Yugoslavia was completely avoidable. Milosevic was a communist and switched to being nationalist. He had to start and wage wars to stay in power and that is what he did. Here is where I think the US should have gotten involved much, much sooner than what we did. I think the responses this reporter got was coming from the bitter feelings in the aftermath of all the bloodshed. Before the war, the Serbs, Muslims and Croats got along great in Bosnia. They intermarried with one another and had children with one another. Good friends with each other. Which brings me to the conclusion that just because somebody doesn't notice you are different in your own way right now, somewhere in the future, they might and it could be held against you.
 

Comrade Brian

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2005
Messages
1,239
Reaction score
0
Location
NE, Minnesota
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Chris said:
I was reading a newspaper article a little while back about a journalist's first hand accounts traveling and speaking with people throughout the former Yugoslav countires. It's been almost 15 years now since the fighting first began, yet hostilities still run high among many citizens, especially in Bosnia and Kosovo.

I am grateful to the peacekeepers who no doubt saved many lives during the conflicts and while not the most desirable response, in retrospect I'm glad the NATO countires eventually took military action. However I am forced to stop and reflect on the key question "has anything really been resolved?" If left to their own devices would the people in the former hot spots be any more reasonable or compromising than they were back than?

Given the kind of charged responses this guy got, it doesn't sound promising. What do you think? What more do you think could or should be done to improve the current situation in the former Yugoslavia?
I hear that people are afraid to go to other peoples backyards and many other places for fear of mines.

I don't know what should be done.
 

TimmyBoy

Banned
Joined
Sep 23, 2005
Messages
1,466
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Comrade Brian said:
I hear that people are afraid to go to other peoples backyards and many other places for fear of mines.

I don't know what should be done.
Ohh yeah, their is still a major problem with mines in that country. Alot of them are booby trapped as well.
 

Chris

Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
120
Reaction score
0
Location
Ontario, Canada
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
TimmyBoy said:
I spent alot of time in Bosnia. I think the wars in the Former Yugoslavia was completely avoidable. Milosevic was a communist and switched to being nationalist. He had to start and wage wars to stay in power and that is what he did. Here is where I think the US should have gotten involved much, much sooner than what we did. I think the responses this reporter got was coming from the bitter feelings in the aftermath of all the bloodshed. Before the war, the Serbs, Muslims and Croats got along great in Bosnia. They intermarried with one another and had children with one another. Good friends with each other. Which brings me to the conclusion that just because somebody doesn't notice you are different in your own way right now, somewhere in the future, they might and it could be held against you.
I totally agree with you, that the US and the international community at large should have gotten involved in trying to mediate and defuse the tensions before it erupted into war. In retrospect I wouldn't expect observers to have known the extent to which the fighting was carried to, but I would think that anyone with a good general knowledge of the climate in Yugoslavia in the late 80's early 90's should have anticipated that fighting might occur. The tensions that lead to the Yugoslav wars had been allowed to manifest themselves for many years, more should have been done during that time.

I have never personally traveled in any of the former Yugoslavia, but from what I've read and heard from people who have traveled there, the various peoples (especially the Croats, Serbs, and Albanians) never liked each other much even before the wars. The feeling they got was that the various groups tolerated one another for the greater good of the counrty but were still soar about events dating back to WWII and prior.

As many people no doubt know, Josip Broz (Tito) generally took a very repressive approach to wards separate nationalist movements and cultural expression, while always trying to promote the concept of a unified Yugoslav nationality. I can't help but think that his policy of repressing separate nationalities rather than trying to reconcile the lingering mistrust stemming from past atrocities between them (ex: Serb genocide at the hands of the WWII Croatian fascist regime) contributed a great deal to the ability of Slobadan Milosevic and other war criminals to exploit these feelings.

My greatest concern is that violence could erupt again somewhere down the road. I think many of the same problems that contributed to the wars in the 90's have still not been properly addressed or resolved, key among them the lingering mistrust and outright hatred many people have for the other ethnic groups particularly in ethnically mixed regions like Kosovo, Bosnia, and Vojvodijna.
 

MiamiFlorida

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2005
Messages
434
Reaction score
1
Location
Miami
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
Chris said:
I was reading a newspaper article a little while back about a journalist's first hand accounts traveling and speaking with people throughout the former Yugoslav countires. It's been almost 15 years now since the fighting first began, yet hostilities still run high among many citizens, especially in Bosnia and Kosovo.

I am grateful to the peacekeepers who no doubt saved many lives during the conflicts and while not the most desirable response, in retrospect I'm glad the NATO countires eventually took military action. However I am forced to stop and reflect on the key question "has anything really been resolved?" If left to their own devices would the people in the former hot spots be any more reasonable or compromising than they were back than?

Given the kind of charged responses this guy got, it doesn't sound promising. What do you think? What more do you think could or should be done to improve the current situation in the former Yugoslavia?
If it's dormant, I have a feeling that when it erupts again, the Europeans are going to have to go at it alone.
 

Chris

Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
120
Reaction score
0
Location
Ontario, Canada
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
While I'm sure this idea has been raised and scrutinized before, and while it certainly wouldn't resolve all the problems, I think that abandoning the communist era political boundaries and redrawing them along ethnic/cultural lines would be greatly beneficial to stabilizing the region.

I fail to see what is so wrong with having a "greater" Serbia, Albania, Croatia, Hungary, etc. Don't get me wrong, I condemn Milsosevic and his like for their crimes, but I see not reason why this should invalidate a desire common to many displaced people among the former Yugoslav states to be part of the nation of their ethnic majority.

Bosnia and Kosovo stand out as the most poignant examples of this. If the people of Bosnia had their right to self determination respected by the international community about 2/3's of the population would almost certainly split to join Serbia and Croatia the first chance they got. What hope is there for a country which most people have no desire to be a part of? If I were an investor there is no way I'd invest any money in a country plagued by so much division and instability. If the non-Bosniak areas left it might actually bring some meaningful unity to the country and usher in some prosperity.

Kosovo is even worse. In numerous independent polls the Albanian and Serb populations of Kosovo have had no illusions about what they want for themselves. The Serbs (especially in the north where they constitute a majority in several regions) want to be re-united with Serbia and Montenegro. They see no future for themselves in an Albanian dominated Kosovo. On the flip side the Albanians are dead set against any attempt to re-unify with Serbia. The Albanians have stated very clearly that they either want outright independence or unification with Albania. Despite this the region remains in a perpetual state of limbo, as the UN, NATO, and the international community at large remain indecisive in what to do with the territory.

http://www.hooverdigest.org/043/johnson.html

I think Bosnia and Kosovo are shinning examples of maintaining territorial integrity at the expense of all common sense. Why should the dead communist dictator of Yugoslavia have a greater say over the fate of the region's people than the people themselves? I find it outrageous that even when the people have expressed their will clearly in a fair and democratic fashion observers are still determined to enforce the hopeless status quo.

Being from a very multi-cultural region myself (greater Toronto area) where people get along well with each other for the most part, I fail to see why the various successor states of Yugoslavia couldn't have strong, mutually beneficial relations with one another too. However at the same time I feel that people should be able to embrace multi-culturalism not have it forced upon them through the arbitrary slicing and dicing of different populations.
 

TimmyBoy

Banned
Joined
Sep 23, 2005
Messages
1,466
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Chris said:
While I'm sure this idea has been raised and scrutinized before, and while it certainly wouldn't resolve all the problems, I think that abandoning the communist era political boundaries and redrawing them along ethnic/cultural lines would be greatly beneficial to stabilizing the region.

I fail to see what is so wrong with having a "greater" Serbia, Albania, Croatia, Hungary, etc. Don't get me wrong, I condemn Milsosevic and his like for their crimes, but I see not reason why this should invalidate a desire common to many displaced people among the former Yugoslav states to be part of the nation of their ethnic majority.

Bosnia and Kosovo stand out as the most poignant examples of this. If the people of Bosnia had their right to self determination respected by the international community about 2/3's of the population would almost certainly split to join Serbia and Croatia the first chance they got. What hope is there for a country which most people have no desire to be a part of? If I were an investor there is no way I'd invest any money in a country plagued by so much division and instability. If the non-Bosniak areas left it might actually bring some meaningful unity to the country and usher in some prosperity.

Kosovo is even worse. In numerous independent polls the Albanian and Serb populations of Kosovo have had no illusions about what they want for themselves. The Serbs (especially in the north where they constitute a majority in several regions) want to be re-united with Serbia and Montenegro. They see no future for themselves in an Albanian dominated Kosovo. On the flip side the Albanians are dead set against any attempt to re-unify with Serbia. The Albanians have stated very clearly that they either want outright independence or unification with Albania. Despite this the region remains in a perpetual state of limbo, as the UN, NATO, and the international community at large remain indecisive in what to do with the territory.

http://www.hooverdigest.org/043/johnson.html

I think Bosnia and Kosovo are shinning examples of maintaining territorial integrity at the expense of all common sense. Why should the dead communist dictator of Yugoslavia have a greater say over the fate of the region's people than the people themselves? I find it outrageous that even when the people have expressed their will clearly in a fair and democratic fashion observers are still determined to enforce the hopeless status quo.

Being from a very multi-cultural region myself (greater Toronto area) where people get along well with each other for the most part, I fail to see why the various successor states of Yugoslavia couldn't have strong, mutually beneficial relations with one another too. However at the same time I feel that people should be able to embrace multi-culturalism not have it forced upon them through the arbitrary slicing and dicing of different populations.
The wars in the former Yugoslavia wasn't based so much on "ethnic differences" as it was based on political manipulators taking advantage of chaos to sieze and hold onto power. However, the terrible bloodshed (especially in Bosnia) will have reprecussions for generations to come. The wars in the Former Yugoslavia would not have happenned if Milosevic was not in power. It took the evil genius of Milosevic in order for the wars in the Former Yugoslavia to happen. The idea that the wars in Yugoslavia started based on "ethinic rivilaries" or "ethnic tensions" and that no matter who was in power, the wars in the Former Yugoslavia would have happenned anyway, is complete non-sense.
 

Chris

Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
120
Reaction score
0
Location
Ontario, Canada
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
TimmyBoy said:
The wars in the Former Yugoslavia would not have happenned if Milosevic was not in power.QUOTE]

I'm totally behind you on this one. Milosevic and others played off the unresolved tensions between the Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks, etc to their benefit. Although Milosevic was undoubtedly the worst of the worst in the conflict there were many other significant players. I'm also quite confident that Franjo Tudman would have been forced to answer for war crimes as well had he not died shortly after the Yugoslav wars (the Krajina Serbs didn't flee their 500 year old homeland of their own free will).

The point I'm trying to make is that the various nation states of the Balkans should correspond to the best interests of as many people as possible, which they are far from at the moment. Germany, Italy, Russia, you name it were forged through brutal and costly wars that would surely be condemned by modern standards, yet the Serbs, Croats, Albanians, etc can't peacefully choose to cede from or join another state? The international community is practically inviting future territorial wars.
 

TimmyBoy

Banned
Joined
Sep 23, 2005
Messages
1,466
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Chris said:
TimmyBoy said:
The wars in the Former Yugoslavia would not have happenned if Milosevic was not in power.QUOTE]

I'm totally behind you on this one. Milosevic and others played off the unresolved tensions between the Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks, etc to their benefit. Although Milosevic was undoubtedly the worst of the worst in the conflict there were many other significant players. I'm also quite confident that Franjo Tudman would have been forced to answer for war crimes as well had he not died shortly after the Yugoslav wars (the Krajina Serbs didn't flee their 500 year old homeland of their own free will).

The point I'm trying to make is that the various nation states of the Balkans should correspond to the best interests of as many people as possible, which they are far from at the moment. Germany, Italy, Russia, you name it were forged through brutal and costly wars that would surely be condemned by modern standards, yet the Serbs, Croats, Albanians, etc can't peacefully choose to cede from or join another state? The international community is practically inviting future territorial wars.
The "international community" invited more wars in this part of Europe by failing to respond to the injustice of the genocide and war crimes that were committed their and instead chose to intentionally ignore it, hoping it would simply just go away.
 

MiamiFlorida

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2005
Messages
434
Reaction score
1
Location
Miami
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
TimmyBoy said:
Chris said:
The "international community" invited more wars in this part of Europe by failing to respond to the injustice of the genocide and war crimes that were committed their and instead chose to intentionally ignore it, hoping it would simply just go away.
But they always know what's best when it comes to the U.S.
 

TimmyBoy

Banned
Joined
Sep 23, 2005
Messages
1,466
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
MiamiFlorida said:
TimmyBoy said:
But they always know what's best when it comes to the U.S.
I worked with alot of different countries and their troops. Most of them are good people. The US is a superpower with alot of influence in the world, so every country is going to have their own opinion on "what's best" for the US since American decisions affect their countries. You would be surprised if I told you how we road marched up and down the steep mountains of Bosnia with French Marines. Very professional, tough soldiers. Their was strong unity between us and the French Marines and their was a strong mutual respect. To be frank with you, I would be willing to go to war anyday with the French Marines and I know I could count on them to watch my back, at least the ones I was with, I had alot of confidence in them. After the road marches, we were all so wore out and exhausted. The marches up the steep mountains were very tough even for a special forces type unit like the Army Rangers (my platoon leader was prior enlisted, tabbed out of Ranger school and served in Ranger battalion for a number of years and he said the road march we went on with the French Marines was tough by Ranger Battalion standards). I remember being up top the mountain and seeing the whole world below me and how thin the air was. It was one of the best moments of my life. I was exhausted but had such a strong feeling of accomplishment, comradship and feeling literally on top of the world. I took pictures with us and the French Marines together on that moutaintop. A unity, a friendship that existed between us and the French troops. We returned to the French base in Mostar, had red wine and French bread in their chow hall. They would eat rabbit for meat as well. Later that night we bought each other drinks at their bar and they waved American flags drunk while we waved the French flag drunk as hell and took group pictures of each other.
 

Michan

New member
Joined
Jan 12, 2006
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Well first off all i want to say hi to all of you as i am new here

And this topic is very interesting for me because i lived trough it. And to start of the war in Yugoslavia is far more complicated then it seems. Main reason for war was taking away consitutional rights from Serbs and breaking the Constitution from the 1974. Also reviving the simbols from former Independent State of Croatia, well known for its genocide against Serbian people in a WW II made this look like second attempt to finish what they started. Trying to separate from Yugoslavia they had to take away constitutional right from Serbs because they would never suport separation. However there has always been tension between Serbs and Croats. And the president of Croatia clearly had plans to create his ethnicly clean state.Now to say something about Serbian Republic off Krayina it has been there lot longer than just since 1991. it was called Military Province and it was under the Austrian Empire not under Croatian goverment. The land was offered to Serbs in a return they were asked to fight off the Ottoman Empire and thats how they created Military Province area largely populated by Serbs. Other thing that created the tension was in a WW II Croatia stepped on a side of Hitler and her monstruos killers called Ustashe were doing terrible killings ,masacres etc. Well today there is a very small number off Serbs there.Operation "Storm" cleansed all non Serb population, killed many burned over 30.000 houses robbed everthing they could under the nose off goverment. They achieved their goal as their president said "We have to hit on Serbs so hard they practicly disapear" .Quote is from one of the meeting with his war generals.One of them is in ICTY in Den Haag waiting for trial after 4 years off running from justice.The sad thing all this happend in front off the worlds eyes. Today they call the Serbs to return their homes but the torture only begins as they have no rights , being discriminated every day, killed and molested.
And yes this is a very good choice for a topic name i belive the peace is just ilusion.

All Best..
 
Top Bottom