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Your thoughts on Agnostics

RAMOSS said:
Well, there are some that beleive in god.. and some that don't.. .. so it is in the knowledge/lack of knowledge axis. rather the belief/lack of belief axis.
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Who are you referring to here?


OM
 
Rich2018 said:
Wait , there are Agnostics who believe in god the same way that a Theist does ?
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Yes.. it's a matter of how certain people are. There are agnostic theists. "I believe in God, but i might be wrong'
 
Rich2018 said:
You said "An agnostic is not looking for knowledge. They are stating it is not possible to gain that knowledge and that is the end of it..."

So once again, if that is the case, then how (exactly) and in what way (exactly) are we to distinguish between the Atheist and the Agnostic when it comes to the existence of god ?
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Knowledge vs. belief. Agnostics lack knowledge because it is impossible to know. Atheists lack belief. Knowledge is different from belief.
 
RAMOSS said:
Yes.. it's a matter of how certain people are. There are agnostic theists. "I believe in God, but i might be wrong'
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That is not an agnostic. That is a theist. Theism is about belief, certainty is irrelevant.
 
devildavid said:
That is not an agnostic. That is a theist. Theism is about belief, certainty is irrelevant.
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Omega man put up a link that was a very high level and pretty incompelete, but a good start about 'agnostic theism'

on a cartisian plan, the 'gnostic/agnostic' axis is different that 'theist/atheist'
 
devildavid said:
Knowledge vs. belief. Agnostics lack knowledge because it is impossible to know. Atheists lack belief. Knowledge is different from belief.
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Gnostics believe in knowledge of god, because it ***IS*** possible to know

Like I said, and clearly you didn't read or comprehend, if god exists then obviously he can communicate with humans.
QED: If god exists, knowledge of him is possible


If an Agnostic isn't looking for knowledge of god, then he/she is just an Atheist.


If an Agnostic is not looking for knowledge of god, why is knowledge different from belief ?



If knowledge of god is impossible, why is knowledge different from belief ?
 
devildavid said:
That is not an agnostic. That is a theist. Theism is about belief, certainty is irrelevant.
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Wrong


A Theist doesn't just have a hunch that god exists


A Theist doesn't just think that god exists


A Theist doesn't just believe that god exists


A Theist knows with absolute certainty that god exists.


The problem is the word believe. To an Atheist the word "believe" is a notch on the certainly scale between "think" and "know"

To a Theist the word believe is synonymous with "know".
A Theist believes in god = he/she knows god exists



To an Atheist, who believes god doesn't exist = he/she is pretty sure god doesn't exist but won't go as far as to say they know.
 
Rich2018 said:
Then they are THEISTS, not AGNOSTICS
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Those two items are not mutually exclusive. Neither is agnostic and atheist mutually exclusive either.
 
Rich2018 said:
A Theist knows with absolute certainty that god exists.
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Then where does faith enter the picture? How precisely can one *know for certain* the existence of something that has neither been measured nor proven? Belief and certainty are not one and the same, regardless of just how fervent that belief is.


OM
 
devildavid said:
Neither. One lacks belief, the other says knowledge is not possible.
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There are different positions that are agnostic.. One say knowledge is not possible, the other one says 'the knowledge is not known'. Both are agnostic, but of different flavors.
 
It is not a terminal condition.
 
RAMOSS said:
Yes.. it's a matter of how certain people are. There are agnostic theists. "I believe in God, but i might be wrong'
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Whether or not you might be wrong is irrelevant... It is purely about what argument you choose to accept as a true (ie what a 'belief' is).

If you choose to accept the god(s) exist argument as a true, then you are a Theist (a religion). If you choose to accept the god(s) do NOT exist argument as a true, then you are an Atheist (a religion). If you simply don't care either way (choosing neither), then you are an Agnostic (NOT a religion).
 
RAMOSS said:
Those two items are not mutually exclusive. Neither is agnostic and atheist mutually exclusive either.
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I would disagree

An Atheist and an Agnostic are indeed mutually exclusive. I don't think you can be both.


An Atheist doesn't believe in god, it goes without saying, therefore, that he/she has no knowledge of god.

An Agnostic has no knowledge of god, if he/she also doesn't believe in the thing they have no knowledge of, what's the point in making a distinction because they would be Atheist anyway ?
 
Omega Man said:
Then where does faith enter the picture? How precisely can one *know for certain* the existence of something that has neither been measured nor proven? Belief and certainty are not one and the same, regardless of just how fervent that belief is.


OM
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Faith persuades the Theist of the absolute certainty that god exists.

Theists (and for the most part when discussing them, I am referring specifically to Christians). who are less than 100% certain that god exists, lack faith.
 
devildavid said:
Neither. One lacks belief, the other says knowledge is not possible.
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But Omega Man says the former claims certainty - are you saying he is wrong ?


You still haven't answered the question as to why, on the assumption that god does in fact exist, it is not possible to have knowledge of him.

Because I don't know any Agnostics who've ever said it is impossible to know god...even if god wills it.
 
Rich2018 said:
I would disagree

An Atheist and an Agnostic are indeed mutually exclusive. I don't think you can be both.


An Atheist doesn't believe in god, it goes without saying, therefore, that he/she has no knowledge of god.

An Agnostic has no knowledge of god, if he/she also doesn't believe in the thing they have no knowledge of, what's the point in making a distinction because they would be Atheist anyway ?
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LInks were given that showed that is not the case. For example Agnostic theism - Wikipedia

There are at least two different types of agnostics. One says something is unknown, the other says it is 'unknowable'. And, consider the statement 'I don't know if there is a god or not, but I believe anyway' and 'I don't know if there is a god nor not, but i don't believe in one' One is the statement of an agnostic theist, the other is an agnostic atheist. Both do not 'know' if there is a god, but their beliefs say 'there is' on the theist side, and 'there is not' on the atheist side.

Then, you get into 'ignostics'.. which say 'I don't know what you refer to when you use the term God'
 
Rich2018 said:
Faith persuades the Theist of the absolute certainty that god exists.

Theists (and for the most part when discussing them, I am referring specifically to Christians). who are less than 100% certain that god exists, lack faith.
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Incorrect. Faith sustains their convictions, while not providing any measures of absolute certainty. A strong conviction is not the same as certainty. They may *feel* certain, but are not provided with certainty. It's called "faith" for a reason.


OM
 
Rich2018 said:
A Theist knows with absolute certainty that god exists.
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No, they believe it. They cannot know it because nothing they believe is demonstrable or objectively testable. All the belief in the world doesn't make a thing reality. It is real or not real based on the facts, not on the fantasies.
 
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