• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Your thoughts on Agnostics

Rich2018 said:
No, you DODGED it.


You ignored it.


However you want to put it...what you didn't do is answer it.



IOn case you've forgotton what the question is I'll repeat it:

Are you saying that Agnostics believe that if there is a god, he is incapable of communicating with humans ?


And before you give any more BS about Agnostics not being defined by beliefs about god, we've already established that many Agnostics actually have some belief in god.
Click to expand...

Agnostics are not agnosticism. It has not been established that agnosticism has anything to do with belief in god.
 
pinqy said:
Which of the questions I have proposed are you claiming is incoherent?
Click to expand...

Asking an agnostic about belief in god.

You can ask anyone about belief in god. It is their answer that determines what they are, not what you label them before they answer.
 
Regardless of the definitions agnostic vs. gnostic, theist vs. atheist, I personally believe that organized religion is one of the most negative and detrimental forces ever designed by humankind, responsible for dozens of millions of killings throughout history, and still today. Sure, there are other forces that are anti-religion and incurred in even more killings (one thinks of the Stalin regime, for example), but that doesn't exempt organized religion from all the damage it has done to humankind. I didn't say it is *the* most negative and detrimental force. I said it is *one* of the most negative and detrimental forces, in my opinion. I'm saying "in my opinion" to be nice, but I do see it as quite factual, since religious-based wars and violence are factual and can't be denied, from the crusades to modern terrorism. "My God is better than your god therefore I must kill you" is one of the oldest forms of violence ever invented by our species. Religion is also a force that hinders progress and sets back scientific pursuits (for example, stem cell research). We are in the 21st century; it's high time to put these superstitions aside.

Does God exist? I don't know and don't care (his existence or lack thereof certainly doesn't directly affect my life, my morals, my goals, or my happiness). I think we humans should stop focusing on these fairy tales, and start trying to get along.

To articulate the evil in religion, I recommend an excellent novel, by Nobel Prize-winning Portuguese author José Saramago: The Gospell According to Jesus Christ. It is brilliant (and not gratuitously disrespectful; it's actually very touching and sensitive).
 
Last edited:
GreatNews2night said:
Regardless of the definitions agnostic vs. gnostic, theist vs. atheist, I personally believe that organized religion is one of the most negative and detrimental forces ever designed by humankind, responsible for dozens of millions of killings throughout history, and still today. Sure, there are other forces that are anti-religion and incurred in even more killings (one thinks of the Stalin regime, for example), but that doesn't exempt organized religion from all the damage it has done to humankind. I didn't say it is *the* most negative and detrimental force. I said it is *one* of the most negative and detrimental forces, in my opinion. I'm saying "in my opinion" to be nice, but I do see it as quite factual, since religious-based wars and violence are factual and can't be denied, from the crusades to modern terrorism. "My God is better than your god therefore I must kill you" is one of the oldest forms of violence ever invented by our species. Religion is also a force that hinders progress and sets back scientific pursuits (for example, stem cell research). We are in the 21st century; it's high time to put these superstitions aside.

Does God exist? I don't know and don't care (his existence or lack thereof certainly doesn't directly affect my life, my morals, my goals, or my happiness). I think we humans should stop focusing on these fairy tales, and start trying to get along.
Click to expand...

These debates about which ideology or religion or belief or lack thereof is responsible for the most deaths is ridiculous. Mankind is inherently violent. That is the reason for all the killing. Any excuse to kill will do.

It is religions claim as an influence for good behavior or even a deterrent to bad behavior that can be shown as false. Religions can be best seen as manifestations one of mankind's attempts to believe it can rise above its basic animal nature.
 
devildavid said:
These debates about which ideology or religion or belief or lack thereof is responsible for the most deaths is ridiculous. Mankind is inherently violent. That is the reason for all the killing. Any excuse to kill will do.

It is religions claim as an influence for good behavior or even a deterrent to bad behavior that can be shown as false. Religions can be best seen as manifestations one of mankind's attempts to believe it can rise above its basic animal nature.
Click to expand...
How is believing in a talking snake and other assorted superstitions, rising above one's basic animal nature?
For me, science and the high arts are attempts to rise above humankind's basic animal nature, NOT religion.
Sure, any excuse will do for killings, but religion is a very powerful one; it results in causality too, not just exculpation. The idea I mentioned, "my God is better than your god therefore I must kill you" is even explicitly etched in some religious books.
 
devildavid said:
Agnostics are not agnosticism. It has not been established that agnosticism has anything to do with belief in god.
Click to expand...


Yes it has


It has been established that Agnostic-Theism exists.

QED: There are people who both believe in god and are still Agnostics.

Or do you deny this ?
 
GreatNews2night said:
How is believing in a talking snake and other assorted superstitions, rising above one's basic animal nature?
For me, science and the high arts are attempts to rise above humankind's basic animal nature, NOT religion.
Sure, any excuse will do for killings, but religion is a very powerful one; it results in causality too, not just exculpation. The idea I mentioned, "my God is better than your god therefore I must kill you" is even explicitly etched in some religious books.
Click to expand...

Religion is more than mythical tales. And I agree with you about arts and science. But all of them ultimately fail and have been used to facilitate mankind's violent tendencies.
 
Rich2018 said:
Yes it has


It has been established that Agnostic-Theism exists.

QED: There are people who both believe in god and are still Agnostics.

Or do you deny this ?
Click to expand...

We are discussing agnosticism, not theism in any form.
 
devildavid said:
We are discussing agnosticism, not theism in any form.
Click to expand...


So you deny that Agnostic-Theism exists ?


If you don't you must accept that at least a significant number of Agnostics do believe in god


If large numbers of Agnostics believe in god, they must have a view of god's nature ... they must have a view on god's ability to communicate with humans, since all the major religions have god or gods communicating with humans.


THEREFORE


Are you saying that Agnostics don't believe that god, is he or they exist, cannot communicate with humans ?
 
Rich2018 said:
I don't think so


If an entity has that kind of power

It is a god.
Click to expand...

It or they have God like powers but that doesnt make them omnipotent which is what we were talking about.
However the Spaniards with their firearms and armor had god like powers in the Aztec perspective, it didn't make them gods
 
Rich2018 said:
So you deny that Agnostic-Theism exists ?


If you don't you must accept that at least a significant number of Agnostics do believe in god


If large numbers of Agnostics believe in god, they must have a view of god's nature ... they must have a view on god's ability to communicate with humans, since all the major religions have god or gods communicating with humans.


THEREFORE


Are you saying that Agnostics don't believe that god, is he or they exist, cannot communicate with humans ?
Click to expand...

Agnostic theism is a form of theism, if it exists. It is not agnosticism.
 
Rich2018 said:
Yes it has


It has been established that Agnostic-Theism exists.

QED: There are people who both believe in god and are still Agnostics.

Or do you deny this ?
Click to expand...

Established by whom and using what criteria?

It probably ha only been established as supporting the desires of those looking into it, not searching for the proof of the matter.
 
Rich2018 said:
I think that it would be good enough for me....and most people.
Click to expand...

Have you discussed this with "most people"?

Putting forth your own thoughts does not make it true.
 
Rich2018 said:
I don't think so


If an entity has that kind of power

It is a god.
Click to expand...

That is merely a belief which you hold and a great many others do not. Supposition, not proof of anything.
 
Arjay81 said:
That is merely a belief which you hold and a great many others do not. Supposition, not proof of anything.
Click to expand...


Wait, are you trying to bring in "proof" into the debate ?



When it comes to god or gods, what can you or anyone "prove" ?
 
devildavid said:
Agnostic theism is a form of theism, if it exists. It is not agnosticism.
Click to expand...


So there are Agnostics who are also Theists - is that what you have just admitted to ?

If no - please explain


If yes - are you also admitting that THESE Agnostics belief (with whatever levels of conviction) that there is a god (or gods) ?
Would it not follow then that they have some basic concepts about this/these god/gods?


Are you saying that these Agnostics believe to a man that the god/gods that they believe in is INCAPABLE of communicating with humans ?
 
Arjay81 said:
Established by whom and using what criteria?

It probably ha only been established as supporting the desires of those looking into it, not searching for the proof of the matter.
Click to expand...



Established by the people who draw up these pigeon holes to categorize people's religious beliefs.
 
I was a agnostic for almost twenty years. It was the common accepted part of me during the 1990's into the 2000's. At the end of the decade, I came to terms to be a atheist and I have no plans to change back. There is no problem with agnostics, because they are testing and retesting's religious faiths from different points of view. That is how I was during those times.
 
Arjay81 said:
Have you discussed this with "most people"?
Click to expand...



No, I thought I made it clear that these were my thoughts - hence "I think"




...putting forth your own thoughts does not make it true.
Click to expand...


You just put forward your personal thought...are you aware that just putting it forth doesn't make it so ?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom