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Your thoughts about Chile's Pinochet, 40 years after the coup.

What type of dicator was Pinochet


  • Total voters
    12
1. So because Chile fixed their rate, then they were able to massively decrease the world copper prices? What are you smoking?

2. That wasn't even from your book, so fail. I have posted evidence, but I am not posting unrelated evidence like you do. Posting a comment saying Chile was doing is not well before Allende is not evidence that US crashed the copper market.

3. Nice try. That has zero relevancy to what I said.

And how does pointing out that Chile was doing well before Allende support your case. That just makes Allende failures even worse. Surely a country that is doing so well can handle a small price drop without getting hyperinflation.


1. Many countries have one big export sector. That won't mean US economic policy will revolve around that country.
2. Oh... right the fixed exchange rate conspiracy theory. Chile fixing the exchange rate somehow crashed the global copper market
3. That is not a relevant answer. And other countries are producing copper.
4. How is Pinochet promoting famine related to "The price drop of copper was not even significant under Allende".

Again, I see no arguments of substance. Two of my points you couldn't even answer. One of them you tried to claim Chile fixing their currency somehow lead to a collapse in world prices. Of course you didn't explain why.

Just give it up. I know you probably believed in the copper conspiracy for a long time, but the world is not that black and white. US is not the devil, and Allende is not Jesus.



And I suggest you to move to Venezuela where you belong, because Chile is to the right of America. With the kind of opinions you have, you must really hate what Chile is today.

And remember according to your copper conspiracy theory, then US is so powerful they can destroy the Chilean economy under a perfect socialist preisdent, by just selling some of their copper reserves. That's pretty pathetic.

1)Its called Peg....(Fixed exchange-rate system). The crisis of 1982...

2) I am talking about how Nixon and copper with chile....

3)Has to do with your comment with the U.S producing copper...

Its obvious that chile produced massive amounts of copper...


1) and....

2) its facts..

http://www.cieplan.org/media/publicaciones/archivos/27/Capitulo_6.pdf

Crisis of 1982 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

3) it's called sarcasm

4)No..during the allende term....You said

The price drop was not even significant

Because the copper issues were not the only trouble for allende...



I never said that the pegged system lead to a world wide crisis. Only in 1982 for chile where the pegged system created problems

You really don't know anything about chiles economy do you....In 1982 the economy fell...though picked up. That is what I was referring too.

http://www.cieplan.org/media/publicaciones/archivos/27/Capitulo_6.pdf

In 1982,the external shocksthat struck Chile-the cutoff of bank loans, the rise of international interest rates, and falling terms of trade-and the “automatic domestic adjustment” process carried out implied a 14 percent plunge in GDP, the largest drop among Latin American coun- tries in that year. The Chilean economy began to recover in 1984. How- ever, only in 1989did GDP per capita recover to its precrisis level.


Crisis of 1982 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Minister of Finance Sergio de Castro, departing from Friedman’s support for free floating exchange rates, decided on a pegged exchange rate of 39 pesos per dollar in June 1979, under the rationale of bringing Chile’s rampant inflation to heel. The result,[14] however, was that a serious balance-of-trade problem arose. Since Chilean peso inflation continued to outpace U.S. dollar inflation, every year Chilean buying power of foreign goods increased, all fueled by foreign loans in dollars[citation needed]. When the bubble finally burst in late 1982, Chile slid into a severe recession that lasted more than two years.


Never said he was jesus nor the U.S the devil....However I gave you evidence that the U.S intervened in Allende's economy. You want to deny that...we can debate.

I have family there from my moms side, I been there numerous times. And guess what...alot of people still continue to praise Allende and his politics.. However I haven't like Bachelet nor Pinera so it doesn't matter. In my opinion the social democrats lean right
 
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1)Its called Peg....(Fixed exchange-rate system). The crisis of 1982...

2) I am talking about how Nixon and copper with chile....

3)Has to do with your comment with the U.S producing copper...

Its obvious that chile produced massive amounts of copper...
1. You didn't answer
2. And? Why is those links relevant?
3. Yes, but you did not explain why US would want the copper prices to crash

1) and....

2) its facts..

http://www.cieplan.org/media/publicaciones/archivos/27/Capitulo_6.pdf

Crisis of 1982 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

3) it's called sarcasm

4)No..during the allende term....You said


The price drop was not even significant


Because the copper issues were not the only trouble for allende...
1. If US economic policy do not revolve around Chile, then they will not crash the copper prices to punish Chile

2. One problem. your link disagree with you. Your link writes
Chile experienced three positive external shocks-a sharp rise of the price of copper,
They are clearly not suggesting that Chile was the reason copper prices dropped under Pinochet. So the facts disagree with you.

3. Still not relevant

4. Oh... so you admit you were wrong? Exports was not the big problems for Allende.

So what was it?




I never said that the pegged system lead to a world wide crisis. Only in 1982 for chile where the pegged system created problems
Here you admitting you are wrong yourself. Remember, we are not talking about the crisis in 1982. We are talking about why the prices of copper dropped internationally under Pinochet.

You claimed US purposely flooded the market with copper to punish Allende
But the prices dropped even more under Pinochet. So did US try to punish Pinochet too?
No, you claim, because Chile had a fixed exchange rate
And then I ask, the fixed exchange rate caused the world copper prices to collapse?

And now you admit, the last bit is not true, hence you have some explaining to do.



Never said he was jesus nor the U.S the devil....However I gave you evidence that the U.S intervened in Allende's economy. You want to deny that...we can debate.
I never said US did not interfere, because they did. But what they did not do was to make the world copper prices collapse to hurt Allende. That means the economical problems during Allende was due to him mismanaging the economy.

I have family there from my moms side, I been there numerous times. And guess what...alot of people still continue to praise Allende and his politics.. However I haven't like Bachelet nor Pinera so it doesn't matter. In my opinion the social democrats lean right
I have been to Chile too. Different from you who wish Chile became another Venezuela, I love how Chile is today. And if I could vote in 2013 I would have voted for the social democrats.

Of course some praise Allende, but if I ask about his individual policies then they don't support those.. It is similar to China where a lot of people still support Mao as an idol, but they don't support his policies.
 
Here is an interesting article about Chile

-- -- -- excerpt from "Who killed Latin democracy" -- -- --

The harsh truth is that without Salvador Allende there would have been no Pinochet. The former was elected in 1970 with a bare plurality - slightly more than a third of the popular vote. Only Chile's firm tradition of recognizing the winner in its first-past-the-post electoral system assured his inauguration. Even so, to win the votes of Christian Democrats in Congress, he was forced to agree to a Statute of Democratic Guarantees that obliged him to recognize such liberties as freedom of the press and unfettered access to the electronic media.

Allende was a likeable man -- but remarkably ignorant, fatuous and weak. He thought of himself as both a democrat and a Marxist, and professed to see no particular contradiction between the two. Unfortunately, within his own government coalition (four parties, two of them formally Marxist), the lines were far more sharply drawn. Ironically, the Communists were the moderates of the piece, since they were carrying water for Moscow, which had other fish to fry in more central theatres of political conflict. (The great concern of the Soviets in Chile -- apart from not wanting to pay for another Cuba -- was not to scare off Christian Democrats and Socialists in Western Europe who might be toying with similar coalitions in the future). Allende's Socialists -- a somewhat sui generis party made up of social democrats, anarchists and Trotskyites -- were far closer ideologically to Fidel Castro's Cuba, which, by the way, maintained a remarkably outsized diplomatic and military mission in Santiago, and also the principal source of illegal weaponry that poured into Chile during these years. Intoxicated by their own rhetoric and ideology, and also deluded by the apparent proximity of total power, the Socialists and their allies on the farthest left (the so-called MIR) were impatient to move to a final confrontation with the "bourgeoisie".

During 1972 and 1973 they actively took the initiative, seizing factories and farms, far exceeding the government's own program of reform and forcing the president to recognize their audacious strokes as faits accomplis. Unfortunately, the nationalized sector of the economy lost money so quickly that the only way to pay its workers was to print unbacked currency in massive quantities; the result was a hyperinflation hitherto unknown to Chile -- 600% in 1973. In the countryside, improvised expropriations -- some of the farms rather smaller than those marked for division by the existing agrarian reform law -- polarized opinion, produced a mini-civil war and greatly dislocated the provision of food to Chile's cities. The result was drastic shortages and a flourishing black market.

Meanwhile, the pell-mell expropriations of factories and the intentional bankrupting of large enterprises had another consequence, one not entirely unwelcome to the Allende government -- independent newspapers and radio stations lost a principal source of financing (advertising). Indeed, it is an inconvenient but incontrovertible fact that Chile would have had no independent press at all in the last days of the regime were it not for clandestine financing by the hated CIA.

Economic chaos and political polarization propelled Chile's middle class, many of whose members had voted for Allende in 1970, toward the right. The result was a new political coalition between Christian Democrats and Conservatives that obtained 56% in the March, 1973, parliamentary by-elections -- a decisive vote against the government but short of the two-thirds needed to impeach Allende. What the new congress could do, however, was to declare the regime "outside the law", which it surely was. At the same time, many members of the opposition were knocking on the doors of the barracks, virtually imploring the military to break the political stalemate.

As it happens, I was in Chile in August, 1973, which is to say, about 30 days before Allende's fall. A coup of some sort was almost universally expected, though no one was quite certain what form it would take or in what direction it would move. For his part, President Allende, from the very beginning, had assiduously courted the high command. He had invited several generals into his cabinet during 1972 and again in 1973. He even managed to seduce politically General Carlos Prats, the commander-in-chief of the army. A "left wing" military government was by no means unimaginable; one already existed in near-by Peru (with economic policies which were remarkably similar to those of Allende), another in Bolivia. Across the Andes in Argentina General Juan Peron was about to return to power with leftist support.

What many of us failed to see was that General Prats was increasingly isolated from his own officers, who shared the concerns and anger of the middle class. A little more than a week before the coup, he was forced to retire, replaced by his chief of staff, General Augusto Pinochet. On the day of the coup, the new army commander was a personality virtually unknown to all but a handful of Chileans. Small wonder that no one saw what was coming. Most Christian Democrats imagined that after a brief interlude, new elections would be called in which Allende's predecessor, Eduardo Frei Montalva, the former president, would be the inevitable victor. Instead, all politics came to an end, and many politicians, labour leaders, and intellectuals ended up in prison or exile. More than a thousand ended up in graves whose precise location remains to be revealed. Even General Prats, Pinochet's closest professional friend, failed to take the full measure of his successor. Permitted to emigrate to Argentina, he and his wife were murdered there a year after the coup, apparently on orders from Pinochet himself.


And the link.....
 
You claimed US purposely flooded the market with copper to punish Allende
But the prices dropped even more under Pinochet. So did US try to punish Pinochet too?
No, you claim, because Chile had a fixed exchange rate
And then I ask, the fixed exchange rate caused the world copper prices to collapse?

This argument isn't valid. Your trying to straw out an answer that isn't correlate to the events that happened. Lower copper prices during Pinochet isn't evidence that the U.S didn't flood the market while Allende's term. Here is true evidence...

The documents released today show American officials moving from open enthusiasm for the coup that toppled the Allende government and brought General Pinochet to power, to reservations about his junta's human rights abuses, to support for the democratic opposition that unseated the general. Minutes of high-level meetings released today show that President Nixon feared that the election of Mr. Allende could set off a drift toward Communism in South America. And he appeared determined to undermine the Allende government. "We are going to cold turkey them on the economy," Mr. Nixon said, suggesting that the United States would flood world markets with copper to force down the price of Chile's main resource. His advisers warned that such dumping would be illegal.

Transnational Institute | Documents Shed Light on Assassination of Chilean in US

And I never said that flooding the copper market was the only issue correlated to CHile's inflation under Allende. The food wasn't shipped or sold because the food owners didn't produce because they were trying to proclaim a food shortage due to Allende's polices.

"For example they denied our weekly supply of food to take home to our families, and blame the shortage on the government"

Page 66

Nixon, Kissinger, and Allende: U.S. Involvement in the 1973 Coup in Chile
By Lubna Z. Qureshi

Nixon, Kissinger, and Allende: U.S. Involvement in the 1973 Coup in Chile - Lubna Z. Qureshi - Google Books


This is just one example of the fake food shortages that the right-wingers tried to portray. If you decide to ignore the evidence I present through out the thread. Thats your choice...however if you think the evidence isn't valid then feel free to post why with evidence.

I never said US did not interfere, because they did. But what they did not do was to make the world copper prices collapse to hurt Allende. That means the economical problems during Allende was due to him mismanaging the economy.

But they did want to create enough inflation to turn the people against him. After all...you said that the U.S did the coup because they didn't want to hurt the copper market. The economic crisis was due to the U.S and the right-wingers in Chile...read the post above.

I have been to Chile too. Different from you who wish Chile became another Venezuela, I love how Chile is today. And if I could vote in 2013 I would have voted for the social democrats.

Of course some praise Allende, but if I ask about his individual policies then they don't support those.. It is similar to China where a lot of people still support Mao as an idol, but they don't support his policies.

What !!! Why would you compare the peoples response of Allende to Mao. He never killed anyone nor started a violent revolution in the name of Socialism/Marxism. HE was elected by the people. That is why they have communist, socialist, radical, parties. If Allende would have created problems to the people....they would have filed charges against him like they did against the ill-hearted Pinochet family....
 
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The point is your copper conspiracy is debunked. If US flooded the market with copper to hurt Allende, then prices should have increased, not dropped under Pinochet.

When you stop using the copper conspiracy as an excuse to legitimize Allende failures

Camlon I have to applaud to you here. Graphs are the best of references because they're quick to see and analyze. I don't see why anyone would continue to argue after you have proved that copper was not a tool used by the USA to get rid of Allende, furthermore you brought into this topic the priorities of the USA at the time which were totally in Asia, I had not even thought of this.

I don't have time to listen to the tapes that were spoken of but seriously I don't think that words equate into actions 100% of the time, regardless of who said them.

Leaving this aside is a more important issue which I brought up earlier and it hasn't been addressed which is that if the people of Chile would have been happy with Allende the coup would not have taken place {if anything of this post is quote please address this line}
Allende was a disaster for Chile, his policies while humanists simply did not fit the economic model of any Latin American country of the time, even less so those of Chile.
 
Castro did establish concentration camps,
No he didnt. He set up labor camps but not concentration camps

suppressed all democracy,
No he didnt. He actually set up the National Assembly of Peoples Power were anyone can run.

killed a lot more people than Pinochet,
Also not true. Pinochet killed 15,000 people and still 2,000 "missing". Castro 1,000-2,000 people in the trials.
 
No he didnt. He set up labor camps but not concentration camps
Hitler also called his concentration camps, labour camps.

No he didnt. He actually set up the National Assembly of Peoples Power were anyone can run.
If there was proper elections, then Castro would not get 99% of the votes.

Also not true. Pinochet killed 15,000 people and still 2,000 "missing". Castro 1,000-2,000 people in the trials.
Castro killed a lot of people outside trials. For instance it is estimated that 4000-5000 died from firing squads.

We can never get an accurate number of how many died due to starvation, labour/concentration camps, or people who just suddenly went missing. But what we know is that the number is high.
 
Hitler also called his concentration camps, labour camps.
Military Units to Aid Production - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"The internees worked an average of 60 hours a week for a monthly income of 7 pesos (roughly worth a meal) and their internment typically lasted for at least six months.[47] Cubans who served in the standard SMO (“Servicio Militar Obligatorio,” Obligatory Military Service) received the same monthly wage of 7 pesos a month.[48]
As long as their agricultural quotas were met, most internees at the camp were allowed a break to visit family after six months of internment.[49] Family members were allowed to visit internees at the camp on the second Sunday of each month and could bring personal items such as cigarettes to internees.[50]"

More like just a labor camp. A pretty lax one if we are gonna try to compare them to Hitler.



If there was proper elections, then Castro would not get 99% of the votes.
First off the people of Cuba dont elect the President of Cuba the National Assembly of Peoples Power does. The people of Cuba elect representative to the National Assembly of Peoples Power. Some level of democracy does exist in Cuba.

Castro killed a lot of people outside trials. For instance it is estimated that 4000-5000 died from firing squads.
Source?

We can never get an accurate number of how many died due to starvation, labour/concentration camps, or people who just suddenly went missing. But what we know is that the number is high.
You can at least show a reputiable source however.
 
Military Units to Aid Production - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"The internees worked an average of 60 hours a week for a monthly income of 7 pesos (roughly worth a meal) and their internment typically lasted for at least six months.[47] Cubans who served in the standard SMO (“Servicio Militar Obligatorio,” Obligatory Military Service) received the same monthly wage of 7 pesos a month.[48]
As long as their agricultural quotas were met, most internees at the camp were allowed a break to visit family after six months of internment.[49] Family members were allowed to visit internees at the camp on the second Sunday of each month and could bring personal items such as cigarettes to internees.[50]"

More like just a labor camp. A pretty lax one if we are gonna try to compare them to Hitler.
That sounds quite like Hitler concentration camps or USSR gulags if you look at everything in the link and not just what you are cropped out. They didn't work 100 hours per week in German concentration camps either cause they would just collapse if they tried. For instance in Auschwitz concentration camp they were forced to work 70 hours per week.

In Cuba they had to work for 60 hours per week for 7 pesos per month?! In what way is that not slavery? Just because it is not Auschwitz does not mean it is not a concentration camp.

And this was their living conditions
UMAP camps typically held 120 internees, split up into squads of ten.[19] Each UMAP camp typically consisted of three barracks, two for internees and one for military personnel.[20] Camps had no running water or electricity

Internees at the camp Kidd discovered were housed in two long, white concrete buildings with no windows just the hole in the wall which had bunk beds with sacks slung between wooden beams for mattresses. After agricultural work was complete, internees were instructed in communist ideology for two hours every night.[51]

There are many reports of physical abuse at the camps, especially directed towards Jehovah’s Witnesses. Among the many forms of abuse, former internees report Jehovah’s Witnesses being beaten, threatened with execution, stuffed with dirt in their mouths, buried in the ground until their neck, and tied up naked outside in barbed wire without food or water until fainting.[37] Emilio Bejel, author of Gay Cuban Nation, wrote that some of the officials who ran the camps were executed due to how badly they mistreated the inmates.[38]​


So after those 60 hours, they had to listen to 14 hours of communist propaganda. And they have to spend some time to eat, which means they hardly had any free time combined with horrible living conditions and abuse.

That sounds exactly like concentration camps.

First off the people of Cuba dont elect the President of Cuba the National Assembly of Peoples Power does. The people of Cuba elect representative to the National Assembly of Peoples Power. Some level of democracy does exist in Cuba.
It doesn't matter. As long as Castro gets 99% of the votes, then it is not democracy. And improper democracy is not any better than no democracy at all.


Source?

You can at least show a reputiable source however.
Some estimates for the total number political executions range from 4,000 to 33,000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro

And thats just the executions, what about those people died under starvation because they were given no food. What about those who died from diseases/starvation in the labour/concentration camps?
 
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No he didnt. He set up labor camps but not concentration camps


No he didnt. He actually set up the National Assembly of Peoples Power were anyone can run.


Also not true. Pinochet killed 15,000 people and still 2,000 "missing". Castro 1,000-2,000 people in the trials.

Just like there are negationists who deny the holocaust there are also negationists on the left like you who deny the murderous and anti-democratic nature of Communist regimes.
 
Just like there are negationists who deny the holocaust there are also negationists on the left like you who deny the murderous and anti-democratic nature of Communist regimes.

Where did i deny anything? I dont deny that Castro killed people with trials, i dont deny that Stalin murdered millions, i dont deny any of those things.
 
Where did i deny anything? I dont deny that Castro killed people with trials, i dont deny that Stalin murdered millions, i dont deny any of those things.

You denied that he had concentration camps and a repressive regime and you deny that he is anti-democratic (opposition parties are banned in Cuba). You are the equivalent of a holocaust denier.
 
You denied that he had concentration camps
Well saying they are just prisons i wouldnt call them "concentration camps"

and a repressive regime
Where did i say it "was not repressive"?

and you deny that he is anti-democratic (opposition parties are banned in Cuba).
I do deny he is fully anti-democratic.... There is a form of democracy in Cuba.

You are the equivalent of a holocaust denier.
Yes.. Of course. :roll:
 
Well saying they are just prisons i wouldnt call them "concentration camps"

Prisons have the characeristic that people in there are guilty. A prison becomes a concentration camp when
1. People are in there for being a particular race or political crimes
2. The conditions are miserable, people die of diseases, starvation and are forced to work very long hours.
Both conditions were true for the Cuban work camps.

Hence I do believe Cuban labour camps are concentration camps. Still, I will not say you are the equivalent of a holocaust denier. That is taking it too far.
 
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