Your feelings on S.A.L.T.?

[Uncensored2008]

Military base sitings are driven much more by politics than practical need. They're a form of welfare to the states.

Ah, so dishonesty is an intentional part of your calculus.

Most service members aren't even citizens of the states they are stationed in. Your claim is complete bullshit.

 

[eohrnberger]

I am fine with paying a higher percentage of my income in taxes than someone that earns less than me.

Except apparently in this case. Oh well.

As I told another poster, if you have issues with the State and Local government tax rates, and apparently you do, you need to take that up with them, and not demand a carve out from the federal government, just because those State and Local government tax rates are as high as they are.

This has nothing to do with that. I pay a state income tax, I pay a local income tax in the city I work in. I also pay sales taxes and property taxes, both state and local. On top of that, I pay personal property taxes as well as various licenses and fees to my state and local government.

I get services in return for those taxes: roads and infrastructure, policing, fire and ambulance, schools, parks, mountain bike trails, lakes, conservation land, state parks trash pickup, a local fitness center, my local government even comes by several times during the Fall and vacuums up any leaves I pile up near the street. Those are all services that I pay my state, county, and local governments for with my taxes. More important as to the topic of the thread, those are services that the federal government does not have to provide for me. The federal government does not have to devote tax revenue to pave the road in front of my house, to pick up my trash, to police my neighborhood, for my local fitness center and so on. If those services were not handled by my state, county, and local government, the federal government would be stuck doing a lot of them because they are services necessary for communities and societies to function. That is why I am able to (and should be able to) deduct the taxes I pay my state, county, and local government from my federal taxes - because they are paying for services the federal government doesn't have to deliver.

 

[Gaius46]

Ah, so dishonesty is an intentional part of your calculus.

Most service members aren't even citizens of the states they are stationed in. Your claim is complete bullshit.

So what? Military bases provide huge financial windfalls to the areas they are located in. If you don't think politics plays into those decisions - especially given that the money comes from Congress - you aren't living in the real world.

 

[Uncensored2008]

So what?

ROFL

Military bases provide huge financial windfalls to the areas they are located in.

Claiming that paying service members is "welfare" is a vicious lie.

If you don't think politics plays into those decisions

Politics plays into all decisions, like where to embezzle the next green energy scam.
But SALT is direct welfare to "blue" states - and undercuts the lie from 1994 that "red" states take more than they put in. California and New York don't "put in" anywhere near what they claim.

- especially given that the money comes from Congress - you aren't living in the real world.

The money comes from taxes - which you of the left keep the leftist Oligarchs from paying.

 

[Gaius46]

ROFL



Claiming that paying service members is "welfare" is a vicious lie.



Politics plays into all decisions, like where to embezzle the next green energy scam.
But SALT is direct welfare to "blue" states - and undercuts the lie from 1994 that "red" states take more than they put in. California and New York don't "put in" anywhere near what they claim.



The money comes from taxes - which you of the left keep the leftist Oligarchs from paying.

A - I'm not of the left. I'm probably to the right of you on many things.

B - I'm not talking about paying troops. I'm talking about the communities the troops spend that money in, the local businesses that provide services to the base etc.

So if politics plays into all decisions then your contention that base sitings don't count as state welfare is wrong.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

OK, but why make that (alleged) ‘fairness’ available only to those who itemize those (shared by most) SALT obligations? The majority of FIT payers are better off taking the ‘standard’ deduction since their (total) itemized deductions would be less than that.

In either case, you are deducting your state and local taxes. I am not sure what the problem is there.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Except apparently in this case. Oh well.

As I told another poster, if you have issues with the State and Local government tax rates, and apparently you do, you need to take that up with them, and not demand a carve out from the federal government, just because those State and Local government tax rates are as high as they are.

You are arguing a straw man. By and large, I think the services I get at the state and local level are worth the taxes I pay.

Moreover, even taking deductions, I pay a far larger percentage of my income in taxes than people that earn substantially less. I thought conservatives were supposed to be against double taxation. Is that another long held principle that Trump had y’all wipe your ass with? I think conservatives were typically right about double taxation. I didn’t change, y’all did.

 

[Greenbeard]

As I told another poster, if you have issues with the State and Local government tax rates, and apparently you do, you need to take that up with them, and not demand a carve out from the federal government, just because those State and Local government tax rates are as high as they are.

Doesn't make sense, though, to take this tack when the GOP's federal agenda is to make red states tax their residents more like blue states (e.g., by increasing SNAP cost-sharing for states, eliminating provider taxes so states have to fund Medicaid through more traditional taxes, etc).

"State taxes are bad" and "more expenses should be shifted to the states" aren't compatible positions.

 

[eohrnberger]

You are arguing a straw man. By and large, I think the services I get at the state and local level are worth the taxes I pay.

That's fine.

Moreover, even taking deductions, I pay a far larger percentage of my income in taxes than people that earn substantially less.

This some sort of vacuous virtue signalling?

I thought conservatives were supposed to be against double taxation.

Now this argument may get some traction.
Note, this argument is much different from previous ones, which were mostly '<whine> My SALT are too high, I need federal relief from them'.

But the there's a bunch of instances of double taxation all over place which would also need to addressed, but it'd be a one by one, case by case basis.

Is that another long held principle that Trump had y’all wipe your ass with?

Needless Ad Hom.

I think conservatives were typically right about double taxation.

Addressed above.

I didn’t change, y’all did.

Didn't change.

 

[eohrnberger]

Doesn't make sense, though, to take this tack when the GOP's federal agenda is to make red states tax their residents more like blue states (e.g., by increasing SNAP cost-sharing for states, eliminating provider taxes so states have to fund Medicaid through more traditional taxes, etc).

"State taxes are bad" and "more expenses should be shifted to the states" aren't compatible positions.

If ti were that I was speaking for the entire GOP it would be incompatible positions, but since I'm not . . . .

 

[ttwtt78640]

You are arguing a straw man. By and large, I think the services I get at the state and local level are worth the taxes I pay.

Moreover, even taking deductions, I pay a far larger percentage of my income in taxes than people that earn substantially less.

That’s how progressive taxation is designed to work.

I thought conservatives were supposed to be against double taxation. Is that another long held principle that Trump had y’all wipe your ass with? I think conservatives were typically right about double taxation. I didn’t change, y’all did.

If your concern is double taxation then, since the federal government taxes income, have your state stop (double) taxing your income.

BTW, the federal government doesn’t tax sales or property, thus the double taxation argument for those state/local taxes is ridiculous.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

That's fine.


This some sort of vacuous virtue signalling?


Now this argument may get some traction.
Note, this argument is much different from previous ones, which were mostly '<whine> My SALT are too high, I need federal relief from them'.

But the there's a bunch of instances of double taxation all over place which would also need to addressed, but it'd be a one by one, case by case basis.


Needless Ad Hom.


Addressed above.


Didn't change.

Everyone was able to deduct their state and local taxes (that exceeded the standard deduction) prior to Republicans changing the law in Trump's first administration. This wasn't a problem until they made it one.

There are times when double taxation is unavoidable. For example, sales taxes are almost always double taxation. I get taxed on my income, then I get taxed on that money again when purchase things with it. The problem there is it is very hard to track all your sales taxes, so even though you can technically deduct them in some cases, few people do. Income taxes and property taxes at the state and local level are different in that are easily tracked, thus they were easily deducted from federal income tax liabilities to avoid double taxation.

 

[Blue Dog]

Being a Nu Yawka I would be remiss not to support SALT.

 

[BirdinHand]

your concern is double taxation then, since the federal government taxes income, have your state stop (double) taxing your income

SALT deductions were enacted as a means to prevent double taxation AND encourage state autonomy.

It’s weird to suddenly hear MAGAs argue in favor of double taxation AND a larger federal government.



Anything to stick it to blue states though, right?

 

[ALiberalModerate]

That’s how progressive taxation is designed to work.



If your concern is double taxation then, since the federal government taxes income, have your state stop (double) taxing your income.

BTW, the federal government doesn’t tax sales or property, thus the double taxation argument for those state/local taxes is ridiculous.

I know how progressive taxes work, that is the point. I am in favor of progressive taxes. I don't think a single parent working 2 jobs should pay more in taxes so that I can pay less.

As to double taxation, that is the whole point. If I can deduct my state and local taxes from my federal taxes, that keeps that money from being double taxed. Obviously, state and local sales taxes are typically double taxation as well because its taxing the income when I use it, that has already been taxed, but its much harder to track sales taxes because its spread across thousands to tens of thousands of purchases per year, so people just live with that one.

 

[ttwtt78640]

SALT deductions were enacted as a means to prevent double taxation AND encourage state autonomy.

It’s weird to suddenly hear MAGAs argue in favor of double taxation AND a larger federal government.



Anything to stick it to blue states though, right?

Perhaps, it’s the blue states doing the double (income) taxation. The federal government doesn’t tax sales or property.

 

[aociswundumho]

Pay your own bills.

Good start. Now bring that idea down to the individual level.

 

[ttwtt78640]

I know how progressive taxes work, that is the point. I am in favor of progressive taxes. I don't think a single parent working 2 jobs should pay more in taxes so that I can pay less.

I’m in favor of equal taxation. Taxpayers with the same gross annual income should pay the the same amount of federal income taxes, regardless of how or upon who that income was later spent.

As to double taxation, that is the whole point. If I can deduct my state and local taxes from my federal taxes, that keeps that money from being double taxed.

Nope, that would require a federal tax credit (not a tax deduction) to accomplish.

Obviously, state and local sales taxes are typically double taxation as well because its taxing the income when I use it, that has already been taxed, but its much harder to track sales taxes because its spread across thousands to tens of thousands of purchases per year, so people just live with that one.

Nope, federal taxes are used to fund federal services, while state/local taxes are used to fund state/local services. Being taxed by multiple levels of government, but for different services, isn’t paying double for the same services.

 

[BirdinHand]

Perhaps, it’s the blue states doing the double (income) taxation. The federal government doesn’t tax sales or property.

Well, I guess we should time travel back to 1913 and tell the folks who decided to institute SALT exemptions your opinion. When they were writing federal tax codes, they seemed to hold a different opinion.

But, apparently you know better.

 

[eohrnberger]

Everyone was able to deduct their state and local taxes (that exceeded the standard deduction) prior to Republicans changing the law in Trump's first administration. This wasn't a problem until they made it one.

I think I've been pretty clear where I stand on the issue. Bully for you that you have a differing position.

There are times when double taxation is unavoidable. For example, sales taxes are almost always double taxation. I get taxed on my income, then I get taxed on that money again when purchase things with it. The problem there is it is very hard to track all your sales taxes, so even though you can technically deduct them in some cases, few people do. Income taxes and property taxes at the state and local level are different in that are easily tracked, thus they were easily deducted from federal income tax liabilities to avoid double taxation.

I'm more leaning to @ttwtt78640's post #136 on this aspect of the question / issue.

 

[Doug64]

And LOTS of bright red places aren’t pulling their fair share of the weight and rely on the tax money from blue states to fund them.

Here's the ten states that have the highest per capita federal support for their state and local budgets:



And here's the ten states with the lowest per capita federal support for their state and local budgets:



Edit: Well, the cut-and-paste direct from Excell didn't work, so here's some screenshots. Anyway, note the Red State / Blue State percentages--that's five Red states and five Blue states in the ten most heavily supported, but seven Red states, three Purple states, and NO Blue states in the least heavily supported.