"You shall not surely die"

[DrewPaul]

I view Genesis as almost entirely a theological work. Its an attempt to answer the question of why humans throughout the ages have been evil and how did we come to recognize that somethings are evil (or at least wrong). Why do we have this knowledge of good and evil? If those qualities didn't exist how is it we seem to be aware of it? Whether we acknowledge it or not we tend morality through the lens of the golden rule...that people should treat others as they would be treated. Why is it none of us seem capable of following that rule with 100% consistency? One reason is because everyone else falls from that standard so it justifies our not living up to the standard.

Imagine if we all drank some tonic and suddenly everyone in the entire world had the ability to live by that code 100%. Its hard to imagine a world with no crime, no wars, no weapons of war and everyone living in brother and sisterhood. I would think technologically we'd be much further advanced.

 

[tosca1]

Tosca……’corruptible’ is not used in this translation. It is used in KJV…..verse 23….”Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible…”. The KJV also from Romans 1:23….”And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man…”. Your translation probably uses ‘immortal God’ and ‘mortal man’. Needless to say but corruptible implies being vulnerable to sin and sin is death…….this would also apply in the same fashion to mortal and immortal….

A side note: both citations from 1:23…..just coincidence…?…..

Thank you for the KJV reference. yes, I saw it.

Back to line 23.
Take note of the key phrase. It ties up with JOHN 3:



1 Peter 1
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.





When Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3 that nobody can see God's kingdom unless they are born again, Nicodemus recognized the figure of speech.
He saw that this was biologically impossible.
Jesus made it clear that He was referring to a spiritual birth.

Physical birth results from a seed that dies eventually.
But the new birth springs from an undying seed, through God's undying word.


What is this "word of God"?
In verse 25, Peter will tell us it is the good news that has been preached to us. We sometimes call it the gospel.
It is the message from God that He will forgive our sins and make us spiritually alive forever in Christ.

What does 1 Peter 1:23 mean? | BibleRef.com

for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable, but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God. - What is the meaning of 1 Peter 1:23?

www.bibleref.com

That's what being born again not of incorruptible seed, means.

 

[tosca1]

And I answered...

It was not an answer to the question.

You gave an un-biblical word salad.


Anyway - if you can't answer, you can't!
No big deal.

 

[Daisy]

It was not an answer to the question.

You gave an un-biblical word salad.


Anyway - if you can't answer, you can't!
No big deal.

If you can't understand what I said, I can't understand it for you...sorry...

 

[tosca1]

If you can't understand what I said, I can't understand it for you...sorry...

Have a nice day.

 

[Daisy]

Kingdom Heirs Granted Immortality. For the anointed Christians called to reign with Christ in the heavens (1Pe 1:3, 4), the promise is that they share with Christ in the likeness of his resurrection. (Ro 6:5) Thus, as in the case of their Lord and Head, the anointed members of the Christian congregation who die faithful receive a resurrection to immortal spirit life, so that “this which is mortal puts on immortality.” (1Co 15:50-54) As with Jesus, immortality in their case does not mean simply everlasting life, or mere freedom from death. That they, too, are granted “the power of an indestructible life” as fellow heirs with Christ is seen from the apostle Paul’s association of incorruptibility with the immortality they attain. (1Co 15:42-49) Over them “the second death has no authority.”—Re 20:6; see INCORRUPTION.

This grant of immortality to the Kingdom heirs is all the more remarkable, in view of the fact that even God’s angels are shown to be mortal, despite their possessing spirit bodies, not carnal ones. Angelic mortality is evident in view of the judgment of death entered against the spirit son who became God’s Adversary, or Satan, and also against those other angels who followed that satanic course and “did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place.” (Jude 6; Mt 25:41; Re 20:10, 14) So the grant of “indestructible life” (Heb 7:16) or “indissoluble life” to those Christians who gain the privilege of reigning with God’s Son in the heavenly Kingdom marvelously demonstrates God’s confidence in them.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002155

 

[Metanoia]

“Mercy triumphs over judgment” as Daisy posts…ever so true. A clear and present danger for everyone, especially Christians, is to have the appearance of being sanctimonious…..implying superiority, correctness….even perfection. Something that has helped me to understand that is the comparison of two parallel scriptures.

The Sermon on the Mount from Matthew 5-7 and Jesus healing and teaching the crowds from Luke 6:17 to end of chapter. The two particular verses that I am comparing are Matthew 5:48 and Luke 6:36….

Matthew 5:48…..”Be perfect, therefore, as your Heavenly Father is perfect.” That, of course, is seemingly impossible….but then, this from Luke 6:36….”Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.” Essentially the two scriptures define and explain each other. While being perfect seemed impossible….mercy seemed to be something within our reach. Furthermore mercy can be broken down into its necessary components: suspension of judgment, love and forgiveness. The movement to mercy would seem to be the movement to the Perfect. It would be good to move in the right direction…..

 

[tosca1]

Kingdom Heirs Granted Immortality. For the anointed Christians called to reign with Christ in the heavens (1Pe 1:3, 4), the promise is that they share with Christ in the likeness of his resurrection. (Ro 6:5) Thus, as in the case of their Lord and Head, the anointed members of the Christian congregation who die faithful receive a resurrection to immortal spirit life, so that “this which is mortal puts on immortality.” (1Co 15:50-54) As with Jesus, immortality in their case does not mean simply everlasting life, or mere freedom from death. That they, too, are granted “the power of an indestructible life” as fellow heirs with Christ is seen from the apostle Paul’s association of incorruptibility with the immortality they attain. (1Co 15:42-49) Over them “the second death has no authority.”—Re 20:6; see INCORRUPTION.

This grant of immortality to the Kingdom heirs is all the more remarkable, in view of the fact that even God’s angels are shown to be mortal, despite their possessing spirit bodies, not carnal ones. Angelic mortality is evident in view of the judgment of death entered against the spirit son who became God’s Adversary, or Satan, and also against those other angels who followed that satanic course and “did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place.” (Jude 6; Mt 25:41; Re 20:10, 14) So the grant of “indestructible life” (Heb 7:16) or “indissoluble life” to those Christians who gain the privilege of reigning with God’s Son in the heavenly Kingdom marvelously demonstrates God’s confidence in them.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002155

The Bible describes them as immortals.





Luke 20
35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage,
36 for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.




Even Satan, was created immortal - thus he'll be in hell for all eternity!


The ONE alone who possesses immortality is Christ - because HE IS GOD!
He never had a beginning and will never have an end.

The others were made immortals by GOD.



Paul states that God has immortality, meaning He can never die;
human immortality is only what we receive from Him (Romans 2:7; 1 Corinthians 15:53, 54; 2 Timothy 1:10).

What does 1 Timothy 6:16 mean? | BibleRef.com

who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen. - What is the meaning of 1 Timothy 6:16?

www.bibleref.com

 

[Metanoia]

The spirit is not exclusively being of GOD.

That is true….but the Spirit is exclusive to God. The Bible distinguishes this by capitalization…..

 

[tosca1]

Since angels do not have physical bodies, they cannot be hurt in the sense of suffering physical harm in the same way a human being with a body could be hurt.
Likewise, angels cannot die in that sense, either.
Physical death is something that humans experience when their bodies cease working and their spirits depart from their bodies.
Since angels do not have physical bodies, they cannot experience physical death.

It is possible that angels do encounter some perils in the spiritual world, perils that are beyond our normal experience or comprehension.
An angel was sent with an answer to Daniel’s prayer but was detained by “the Prince of Persia” (a fallen angel/demon) and prevented from coming to Daniel for 21 days (Daniel 10:12–13).
How was the angel detained? We are not told.

Even though they are spirits, angels are not omnipresent, so they do have some kind of localized existence that apparently can be contained.
When angels “fight” with demons, do they get injured by each other? Perhaps, but we are simply not told what this type of fighting entails.
When we are in battle with spiritual forces, we do not use physical weapons but the armor of God detailed in Ephesians 6:10–18.

If demons are fallen angels, then we know that angels can suffer.
When Jesus cast demons out, they sometimes feared that Jesus was going to torture or torment them (see Matthew 8:29; Luke 8:28).

Can angels die? Can angels be hurt? | GotQuestions.org

Can angels die? Can angels be hurt? If angels can’t do or be hurt, what is the point of them engaging in combat against the demons?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[tosca1]

That is true….but the Spirit is exclusive to God. The Bible distinguishes this by capitalization…..

The Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit.

 

[ataraxia]

Or more correctly: better find a way to refute what the Bible says.

If one is using the Bible to justify the Bible, how can it EVER possibly be refuted, even theoretically speaking?

 

[tosca1]

If one is using the Bible to justify the Bible, how can it EVER possibly be refuted, even theoretically speaking?

We're talking about Christians following their doctrine!
The Bible is their REFERENCE BOOK!


The refutation is on interpretations - whether it's biblical or not.



Atheistic views - unless they're biblical - do not apply.

 

[Teatime]

They refer to the BIBLE!

Which one? There are so many. Ever wonder why?

 

[Daisy]

Since angels do not have physical bodies, they cannot be hurt in the sense of suffering physical harm in the same way a human being with a body could be hurt.

So, the "immortal" soul, as you call it cannot be hurt either...no eternal fire, no pain...got it...

 

[Teatime]

Don't you know that they're giving Bible references?
Can't you tell?

All the extra color and fancy formatting you add does make your posts near unreadable. Just use normal text.

 

[Teatime]

Since angels do not have physical bodies, l[/URL]

Angel just means messenger. Yes, angels have bodies because angels are just human beings carrying a message. All the imagery about halos and wings and etc wasn't added until the 4th century.

 

[Metanoia]

How will Jesus DIE for us if He came as an immortal?

This answer will take some contemplation…... The crucifixion was made possible by voluntary divine powerlessness. ‘For God so loved the world’…..how much ? Enough to not use his power to save his only begotten son so that the world might be saved. The apostle Paul discovered this same principle….2 Cor. 12:10….”For when I am weak, then I am strong.”

 

[Daisy]

Immortal life is indestructible...meaning it cannot die...

IMMORTALITY​

The Greek word a·tha·na·siʹa is formed by the negative prefix a followed by a form of the word for “death” (thaʹna·tos). Thus, the basic meaning is “deathlessness,” and refers to the quality of life that is enjoyed, its endlessness and indestructibility. (1Co 15:53, 54, ftn; 1Ti 6:16, ftn) The Greek word a·phthar·siʹa, meaning “incorruption,” refers to that which cannot decay or be corrupted, that which is imperishable.—Ro 2:7; 1Co 15:42, 50, 53; Eph 6:24; 2Ti 1:10.

The expressions “immortal” or “immortality” do not occur in the Hebrew Scriptures, which do show, however, that Jehovah God, as the Source of all life, is not subject to death, hence, is immortal. (Ps 36:7, 9; 90:1, 2; Hab 1:12) This fact is also emphatically stated by the Christian apostle Paul in referring to God as “the King of eternity, incorruptible.”—1Ti 1:17.

As the article SOUL shows, the Hebrew Scriptures also make plain that man is not inherently immortal. References to the human soul (Heb., neʹphesh) as dying, heading for the grave, and being destroyed are numerous. (Ge 17:14; Jos 10:32; Job 33:22; Ps 22:29; 78:50; Eze 18:4, 20) The Christian Greek Scriptures, of course, are in harmony and likewise contain references to the death of the soul (Gr., psy·kheʹ). (Mt 26:38; Mr 3:4; Ac 3:23; Jas 5:20; Re 8:9; 16:3) Therefore the Christian Greek Scriptures do not dispute or alter the inspired teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures that man, the human soul, is mortal, subject to death. The Christian Greek Scriptures, however, do contain the revelation of God’s purpose to grant immortality to certain of his servants.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002155

 

[Metanoia]

The expressions “immortal” or “immortality” do not occur in the Hebrew Scriptures, which do show, however, that Jehovah God, as the Source of all life, is not subject to death, hence, is immortal. (Ps 36:7, 9; 90:1, 2; Hab 1:12) This fact is also emphatically stated by the Christian apostle Paul in referring to God as “the King of eternity, incorruptible.”—1Ti 1:17.

As the article SOUL shows, the Hebrew Scriptures also make plain that man is not inherently immortal. References to the human soul (Heb., neʹphesh) as dying, heading for the grave, and being destroyed are numerous. (Ge 17:14; Jos 10:32; Job 33:22; Ps 22:29; 78:50; Eze 18:4, 20) The Christian Greek Scriptures, of course, are in harmony and likewise contain references to the death of the soul (Gr., psy·kheʹ). (Mt 26:38; Mr 3:4; Ac 3:23; Jas 5:20; Re 8:9; 16:3) Therefore the Christian Greek Scriptures do not dispute or alter the inspired teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures that man, the human soul, is mortal, subject to death. The Christian Greek Scriptures, however, do contain the revelation of God’s purpose to grant immortality to certain of his servants.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002155

 

[Metanoia]

In reply to # 95……in conjunction with ‘immortal’ and ‘immortality’…..the Hebrew scripture never once speaks of eternal life whereas that appears frequently in the NT……indicating it became a possibility and reality with the coming of Jesus……in addition the kingdom of heaven….the kingdom of God was presented in the NT as an attainable and desirable goal….an opening of the gates of heaven…..and, yes, these ascended ones would not be souls(which are flesh and blood…nephesh)….the ‘new man’ in Christ is spiritual….this is the reality for now…..Revelations promises something different but, personally, I question any understanding at this time…..silly people trying to identify Russia and the United States, etc. That just seems to be ego projection identifying ourselves with the ‘good guys’.

 

[Revelation]

I've only been here for a few days and even I can see this is a place marked out for religious discussions.

true. look at the heading of Theology: A forum for the discussion of religion and spirituality from a theological, faith-based foundation.

the atheists tend to gather in Beliefs.

you are Welcome to come and Believe with us.


...Teatime, unbelievers do tend to end up like Cartoon man, may wanna consider that and come back.

 

[Revelation]

All the extra color and fancy formatting you add does make your posts near unreadable. Just use normal text.

we all have our own Personal Style here, it adds color and Vibrancy to the dull masses of type.

 

[redbeer]

I view Genesis as almost entirely a theological work. Its an attempt to answer the question of why humans throughout the ages have been evil and how did we come to recognize that somethings are evil (or at least wrong). Why do we have this knowledge of good and evil? If those qualities didn't exist how is it we seem to be aware of it? Whether we acknowledge it or not we tend morality through the lens of the golden rule...that people should treat others as they would be treated. Why is it none of us seem capable of following that rule with 100% consistency? One reason is because everyone else falls from that standard so it justifies our not living up to the standard.

Imagine if we all drank some tonic and suddenly everyone in the entire world had the ability to live by that code 100%. Its hard to imagine a world with no crime, no wars, no weapons of war and everyone living in brother and sisterhood. I would think technologically we'd be much further advanced.

Yes, we are all guilty of not keeping the golden rule or the commandments of God. I see the bible as a many layered onion, depending upon how far along in your walk, for at times I see this and that, then later I see even deeper/greater things within those same scriptures.

I agree with your sentiments.....the world would be a much better place if we could all follow the golden rule. Seems human nature is the same through the generations.

 

[redbeer]

That's a common apologetic attempt to bend the text to dogma but the language used clearly means death within about a day and that didn't happen. The serpent was right.

There were two trees in the midst of the garden, the Tree of Life and the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The Tree of Life was not forbidden to eat from, only the other. Eating of the Tree of Life they wouldn't of died, eating of the other would bring death. The serpent beguiled Eve and she ate of the forbidden fruit through the serpent's deception. Seems we all are beguiled and decide to eat from the wrong tree in each of our lives.


(Gen 3:4) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
(Gen 3:5) For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
(Gen 3:6) And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.