"You shall not surely die"

[tosca1]

Literally we didn’t but symbolically we all do…….good and evil represents a duality and the original duality was our separation from God…..to return to God spiritually is to be one with God…..no separation….it is a hard concept to grasp to realize this means being without an ego…..but it was the very thing that made this separation….

Like I said..........


We didn't actually eat from the tree...................................but have all been tainted by the sin of Adam and Eve.
It's been passed down to us.

Kinda like you inherit your parents' genius.

 

[tosca1]

Basically it is this: the soul is corruptible …1 Peter1:22…”Seeing you have purified your souls…” KJV…

We are all tainted with sin from Adam and Eve - thus the world needed a Messiah - Jesus Christ.


1 Peter 1

19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.
20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.


22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart.[b]
23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.





I've looked up soul and spirit:


Discerning the precise differences between the two can be confusing. The word spirit refers only to the immaterial facet of humanity.
Human beings have a spirit, but we are not spirits.
However, in Scripture, only believers are said to be spiritually alive (1 Corinthians 2:11; Hebrews 4:12; James 2:26);
unbelievers are spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1–5; Colossians 2:13).


In Paul’s writing, the spiritual is pivotal to the life of the believer (1 Corinthians 2:14; 3:1; Ephesians 1:3; 5:19; Colossians 1:9; 3:16).
The spirit is the element in humanity that gives us the ability to have an intimate relationship with God.
The word spirit refers to the immaterial part of humanity that “connects” with God, who Himself is spirit (John 4:24).


The word soul can refer to both the immaterial and material aspects of humanity.
Humans have a spirit but are souls.

In its most basic sense, the word soul means “life”; beyond this essential meaning, the Bible speaks of the soul in many contexts.
One of these is in relation to humanity’s basic selfishness (e.g., Luke 12:19).
Human beings have a sinful nature, and our souls are tainted with sin.

The soul, as the life essence of the body, is removed at the time of physical death (Genesis 35:18).

The soul, as with the spirit, is the center of many spiritual and emotional experiences (Job 30:25; Psalm 43:5; Jeremiah 13:17).

The word soul can refer to the whole person, whether alive on earth or in the afterlife (see Revelation 6:9).



The soul and the spirit are connected, but separable (Hebrews 4:12).
The soul is the essence of humanity’s being; it is who we are.
The spirit is the immaterial part of humanity that connects with God.

What is the difference between the soul and spirit of humanity? | GotQuestions.org

What is the difference between the soul and spirit of humanity? Is the spirit part of the soul, or are the two entirely separate?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Teatime]

Seems this lie is still being told and taught as if truth, even today. You have an immortal soul, they say or the human nature of Jesus died on the cross and did not surely die, just one of his natures.

The Garden of Eden is alive and well through the generations. Eat of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil and you will die, says God.....once eaten we see ourselves as knowledgeable or immortals somehow and we die. Some believing through knowledge that God is not real, a fantasy while others professing a belief think they have an immortal soul and will not surely die.

Looks as if the first lie told still encompasses all of humanity, even today. In the midst of the Garden there were two trees, the Tree of Life and the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God said not to eat of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil, yet said nothing of the Tree of Life, also in the midst, so it was free to eat.

It's still the same today in each of our lives and we have all ate of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and whether believer or not and the fruit form this tree is good for food, pleasant to the eyes, and one which would make us wise. The serpent said "you shall not surely die", but God has said, "you will die".

There's a key here, namely that in the midst of the Garden there still stands the Tree of Life.....it's still there ready to be eaten, whether believer or not, it's God's gift to us.

1. It was written as a poem, it wasn't meant to be taken literally.
2. God said they would die, and they didn't, so either god lied, or god was wrong, or the text is wrong meaning the bible is fallible.

 

[Teatime]

Please keep your Christian religion out of politics, it has no place there. Your god is not in charge of America politics, please keep him in Christmas.

I've only been here for a few days and even I can see this is a place marked out for religious discussions.

 

[tosca1]

the Spirit is incorruptible…..being of God..

Can you cite the verse that says that.
I've been looking for it, but can't seem to find it.

The reason I ask, because it seems to be a contradiction since there are those who are described to be.................. SPIRITUALLY DEAD.




The spirit is not exclusively being of GOD.


1 John 4
4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.


Ephesians 2
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

 

[tosca1]

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”



So - the moment Adam and EVE had eaten the fruit - they DIED!

S P I R I T U A L L Y.




ADAM and EVE were physically alive...............but spiritually dead!

We were born spiritually dead!




Here are the connecting dots!



Ephesians 2:1
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins


Col 2:13
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,



Roman 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.


John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.






We were all dead. SPIRITUALLY!
SEPARATED FROM GOD. Without hope.

That's the very reason why a MESSIAH was sent to the world by GOD.

We come alive - spiritually - only through the MESSIAH - Jesus Christ.

 

[redbeer]

1. It was written as a poem, it wasn't meant to be taken literally.
2. God said they would die, and they didn't, so either god lied, or god was wrong, or the text is wrong meaning the bible is fallible.

God didn't lie nor was wrong.....the liar was the serpent. They did die as have all humans and all rely upon God to be resurrected. The only one who alone has immortality is God. There is not an immortal thing/aspect about human beings, for it's a gift from God.

 

[tosca1]

Seems this lie is still being told and taught as if truth, even today. You have an immortal soul, they say or the human nature of Jesus died on the cross and did not surely die, just one of his natures.

The Garden of Eden is alive and well through the generations. Eat of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil and you will die, says God.....once eaten we see ourselves as knowledgeable or immortals somehow and we die. Some believing through knowledge that God is not real, a fantasy while others professing a belief think they have an immortal soul and will not surely die.

Looks as if the first lie told still encompasses all of humanity, even today. In the midst of the Garden there were two trees, the Tree of Life and the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God said not to eat of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil, yet said nothing of the Tree of Life, also in the midst, so it was free to eat.

It's still the same today in each of our lives and we have all ate of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and whether believer or not and the fruit form this tree is good for food, pleasant to the eyes, and one which would make us wise. The serpent said "you shall not surely die", but God has said, "you will die".

There's a key here, namely that in the midst of the Garden there still stands the Tree of Life.....it's still there ready to be eaten, whether believer or not, it's God's gift to us.

@Daisy



I'm curious.


"DEAD IN SIN."


What do you understand by these verses?
How would you interpret them?



Ephesians 2:1
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins


Col 2:13
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him,
having forgiven us all our trespasses,

 

[tosca1]

"The wages of sin is death," is CONSISTENT with the disobedience of Adam and Eve!

Adam and Eve DIED, when they committed their sin against GOD.



At its core, sin is rebellion against God.
Our sin separates us from God, the creator and sustainer of life.
Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life” (John 14:6a). God is known as the great “I AM.” Life is in God.
So, when we sin and become separated from God, we become separated from true life. Therefore, perforce, we experience death.



Three points of clarification are needed:

First, sin does not necessarily result in physical death right away.
Romans 6 is not telling us that when we sin we will physically die. Rather, it is referring to spiritual death.


Second, when we are saved in Christ, we are rescued from ultimate spiritual death and brought into ultimate spiritual life.
Paul told the Romans, “The gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23b).


Third, even believers’ sins will still result in a type of spiritual “death.”
Though we are rescued from the ultimate penalty of sin (eternal separation from God), we are not exempt from the natural consequences of a broken relationship with the Father.
When we sin, we experience the symptoms of spiritual death.
We may feel guilty, empty, confused, or disconnected from God. We act as the unrighteous rather than as the righteous.
Our sin, even as believers, hurts the heart of God and grieves His Spirit (Ephesians 4:30).
Though it does not sever our relationship with Him, our sin does put a barrier between us.

What does it mean that the wages of sin is death? | GotQuestions.org

What does it mean that the wages of sin is death? What is the meaning and implications of Romans 6:23?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[tosca1]

Not even Jesus achieved immortality until after his resurrection...

Lol - say that again?

You wanna think it over?



Of course He wouldn't be immortal as a human...................... IF HIS MISSION IS TO SUFFER and DIE FOR US.......................RIGHT?


Lol - how can He DIE for our sins if He came as an immortal, and He can't die?


Will you explain that to us, please?

 

[tosca1]

We can say that again.


I'll be waiting for your answers.

 

[Teatime]

God didn't lie nor was wrong.....the liar was the serpent. They did die as have all humans and all rely upon God to be resurrected. The only one who alone has immortality is God. There is not an immortal thing/aspect about human beings, for it's a gift from God.

That's a common apologetic attempt to bend the text to dogma but the language used clearly means death within about a day and that didn't happen. The serpent was right.

 

[tosca1]

That's a common apologetic attempt to bend the text to dogma but the language used clearly means death within about a day and that didn't happen. The serpent was right.

Satan isn't called the "master of lies," for nothing.



The serpent was proven wrong.
Adam and Eve died spiritually.....and were driven out from Paradise.




These lines show it was never about physical death.
They were meant to physically die at some point.



Genesis 3
9 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”


22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”



Lol - the serpent wasn't only wrong - it got cursed too!

 

[Teatime]

Satan isn't called the "master of lies," for nothing.

Satan is a title of a role, like prosecutor or accuser, not the name of a person, and sometimes even angels are referred to as Satan. There is no single villain in the bible identified as Satan. You're referring to Lucifer, who is not the same person as the serpent in the garden. Lucifer was not in the garden.

And it's all a poem anyway, not to be taken literally. There was no real garden, there was now real serpent, there were no Adam and Eve.

 

[Daisy]

Lol - say that again?

You wanna think it over?



Of course He wouldn't be immortal as a human...................... IF HIS MISSION IS TO SUFFER and DIE FOR US.......................RIGHT?


Lol - how can He DIE for our sins if He came as an immortal, and He can't die?


Will you explain that to us, please?

Immortality is not a light switch that can be turned on and off...so, Jesus was/is not God...got it...

"Are you not from everlasting, O Jehovah?+
O my God, my Holy One, you do not die." Habakkuk 1:12

 

[Metanoia]

1 Peter 1


22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart.[b]
23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Tosca……’corruptible’ is not used in this translation. It is used in KJV…..verse 23….”Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible…”. The KJV also from Romans 1:23….”And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man…”. Your translation probably uses ‘immortal God’ and ‘mortal man’. Needless to say but corruptible implies being vulnerable to sin and sin is death…….this would also apply in the same fashion to mortal and immortal….

A side note: both citations from 1:23…..just coincidence…?…..

 

[Metanoia]

Back to what I see as the distinction between soul and spirit……Luke 23:46….”…Father into your hands I commit my spirit”….not soul…the Spirit is immortal….God is Spirit….it cannot be buried on earth….it goes back to God…

To ‘give up the ghost’ means to die….and for those with the spirit means you are returning it to God…..

Matthew 10:28……”….Rather be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell “. Logically God cannot destroy the Spirit because that would be Himself…..his primary identity. He would take the spirit back and then destroy the soul…..leaving us to believe that one could possibly get a new soul….but no such thing as a new Spirit……

Another comparison of the KJV to the NIV….. I will put the word the NIV uses in parentheses….
Isaiah 53:10….”when thou shalt make his soul(life) an offering for sin…”
Isaiah 53:12….”because he hath poured out his soul(life) unto death..”

In the KJV soul is synonymous with life….certainly not inclusive with spirit…..Jesus did not pour out his spirit unto death….

John 7:39….”By this he meant the Sprit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.” In the OT the spirit was alive but was only given by God at specific times and for specific purposes…it was at the discretion of God…He ‘spoke’ to them….gave prophecy etc. They did not have access from within themselves….they could only ask for it. But with the glorification of Jesus it was given to believers and IMO potential believers…..we view that as the ‘spark’ of God. A spark is not a flame….it is up to us to activate it so that it becomes a real presence in our lives. Religion, meditation, contemplation can all be first steps to becoming spiritual….and becoming spiritual is our genuine connection to God….knowing ‘about’ God is one thing whereas ‘knowing’ God is completely different….”Taste the Lord and see that He is good”……

 

[tosca1]

Satan is a title of a role, like prosecutor or accuser, not the name of a person, and sometimes even angels are referred to as Satan. There is no single villain in the bible identified as Satan. You're referring to Lucifer, who is not the same person as the serpent in the garden. Lucifer was not in the garden.

And it's all a poem anyway, not to be taken literally. There was no real garden, there was now real serpent, there were no Adam and Eve.

Satan is the name of a fallen angel.
He is also known as THE devil.



2 Cor 11:14
And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Rev 12:9
And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Luke 10:18
And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Job 1:7
The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.”

John 8
44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.
When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.



Put simply, the Bible defines Satan as an angelic being who fell from his position in heaven due to sin and is now completely opposed to God, doing all in his power to thwart God’s purposes.

Satan was created as a holy angel. Isaiah 14:12 possibly gives Satan’s pre-fall name as Lucifer. Ezekiel 28:12-14 describes Satan as having been created a cherub, apparently the highest created angel.

Satan became the ruler of this world and the prince of the power of the air (John 12:31; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Ephesians 2:2).
He is an accuser (Revelation 12:10), a tempter (Matthew 4:3; 1 Thessalonians 3:5), and a deceiver (Genesis 3; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Revelation 20:3).
His very name means “adversary” or “one who opposes.” Another of his titles, the devil, means “slanderer.”

Who/what is Satan? Who/what is the devil? | GotQuestions.org

Who/what is Satan? Who/what is the devil? Why did Satan rebel against God? Is Satan a person or a personification of evil? What is satanology?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Daisy]

Eccl. 3:19-21: “There is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust. Who is there knowing the spirit of the sons of mankind, whether it is ascending upward; and the spirit of the beast, whether it is descending downward to the earth?”

(Because of the inheritance of sin and death from Adam, humans all die and return to the dust, as animals do. But does each human have a spirit that goes on living as an intelligent personality after it ceases to function in the body? No; verse 19 answers that humans and beasts “all have but one spirit.” Based merely on human observation, no one can authoritatively answer the question raised in verse 21 regarding the spirit. But God’s Word answers that there is nothing that humans have as a result of birth that gives them superiority over beasts when they die. However, because of God’s merciful provision through Christ, the prospect of living forever has been opened up to humans who exercise faith, but not to animals. For many of mankind, that will be made possible by resurrection, when active life-force from God will invigorate them again.)

Luke 23:46: “Jesus called with a loud voice and said: ‘Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit [Greek, pneuʹmaʹ].’ When he had said this, he expired.” (Notice that Jesus expired. When his spirit went out he was not on his way to heaven. Not until the third day from this was Jesus resurrected from the dead. Then, as Acts 1:3, 9 shows, it was 40 more days before he ascended to heaven. So, what is the meaning of what Jesus said at the time of his death? He was saying that he knew that, when he died, his future life prospects rested entirely with God.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989271

 

[Teatime]

Satan is the name of a fallen angel.

Satan is not the name of anyone, it's a roll that even god's angels sometimes play.

You mean Lucifer.

 

[tosca1]

Satan is not the name of anyone, it's a roll that even god's angels sometimes play.

You mean Lucifer.

................you say that............ after I gave you biblical references and explanations!

I'm not going to argue with someone's OPINION - especially from someone who hardly knows anything about the Bible.



Have a nice day.

 

[Teatime]

....and, after I gave you biblical reference and explanations!

You linked to apologetics. Apologetics are attempts to read dogma into scripture. I've been doing this for a long time and am happy to accept your concession.

 

[tosca1]

Immortality is not a light switch that can be turned on and off...so, Jesus was/is not God...got it...

"Are you not from everlasting, O Jehovah?+
O my God, my Holy One, you do not die." Habakkuk 1:12

I'm sorry Daisy.....but I asked you a simple question:


How will Jesus DIE for us if He came as an immortal?

 

[tosca1]

You linked to apologetics. Apologetics are attempts to read dogma into scripture. I've been doing this for a long time and am happy to accept your concession.

They refer to the BIBLE!

Don't you know that they're giving Bible references?
Can't you tell?

 

[Daisy]

I'm sorry Daisy.....but I asked you a simple question:


How will Jesus DIE for us if He came as an immortal?

And I answered...