"You shall not surely die"

[Teatime]

There were two trees in the midst of the garden, the Tree of Life and the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The Tree of Life was not forbidden to eat from, only the other. Eating of the Tree of Life they wouldn't of died, eating of the other would bring death. The serpent beguiled Eve and she ate of the forbidden fruit through the serpent's deception. Seems we all are beguiled and decide to eat from the wrong tree in each of our lives.


(Gen 3:4) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
(Gen 3:5) For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
(Gen 3:6) And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

And then they lived a long life.

 

[redbeer]

And then they lived a long life.

From that day forward they had no access to the Tree of Life and died. If they remained obedient and eventually ate from the Tree of Life they would not have died. God did not lie and in a way the serpent was also correct, but not entirely truthful and tempted Eve. From God's point of view from that day forward they were dead.

 

[Teatime]

From that day forward they had no access to the Tree of Life and died.

God said they would die then and there, ie immediately. That didn't happen. Good thing this this creation story is just a myth, never meant to be taken literally true, or god would have some explaining to do.

 

[redbeer]

God said they would die then and there, ie immediately. That didn't happen. Good thing this this creation story is just a myth, never meant to be taken literally true, or god would have some explaining to do.

From Gen 2:17, Strongs definition of "die":


H3117
יוֹם
yôm
yome
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.
Total KJV occurrences: 2295


Obviously, they did not literally die in that 24 hr period, for they lived many years, yet they did die. The bible is highly figurative and spiritual, I think written that way to prevent men with bad intentions to remove its message.

 

[Teatime]

From Gen 2:17, Strongs definition of "die":

That's a common dogma. Another is that "day" didn't mean 24hours. Still another is that they died a spiritual death. There are others dogmas read into the story to make it say something other than what it actually says.

 

[Daisy]

Adam and Eve were created perfect, with perfect minds and bodies, which were able to sustain their lives forever, with one stipulation...remain obedient...on the day they ate from the tree the dying process began and just as Jehovah said, they did die...once being perfect, it's only makes sense that death did not occur right away, the process took years but they did die...if they had not eaten of the tree, they would still be alive today...

 

[redbeer]

That's a common dogma. Another is that "day" didn't mean 24hours. Still another is that they died a spiritual death. There are others dogmas read into the story to make it say something other than what it actually says.

I also noticed he brings up "leviathan". Do you really believe this was some kind of real or mythical creature?

It begins in Job 40 speaking of the Behemoth and onto the 41st chapter speaking of the Leviathan. It's an interesting read with a much deeper message than a real or mythical creature. It's God speaking against the "pride" of man and describing it in poetic language which must be discerned, but the clues are evident within the text.

Problem with scripture is man attempts to place God on the same level of existence as us, for God is not tied to the time of our solar system and planet Earth. Then in Isiah it's brought up again giving us more clarity:


(Isa 27:1) In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

Comparing Leviathan to a serpent.....beginning to see what's happening? Go back to Gen and glean more clarity:


(Gen 3:1) Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
(Gen 3:2) And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
(Gen 3:3) But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
(Gen 3:4) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
(Gen 3:5) For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
(Gen 3:6) And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.


Remember there are two trees in the midst of the Garden, the Tree of Life along with the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. When asked of the serpent, Eve fails to mention the Tree of Life in the midst....a mistake or purposeful. In comes 'pride' spoken by the serpent and the description of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil, subtly luring the woman to disobey God.

 

[Peter]

If anyone in history had become immortal they'd still be with us now and be the most famous person ever simply for being immortal.

 

[Teatime]

Problem with scripture is man attempts to place God on the same level of existence as us, for God is not tied to the time of our solar system and planet Earth.

The bible starts out with god confined to Israel. God begins as a storm god and child of another god who gives him Israel as his inheritance. God's authority only existed in Israel and you had to be in Israel in order to worship God. Those were the rules people followed at the time. Even in the garden, god is depicted walking, meaning god had a limited physical form. Also, god is looking for Adam and Eve, meaning he doesn't know where they are, which demonstrates human faculties, not omnipotence.

The bible is a wonderful cross section of the evolution of man's idea of the divine.

My own theory, and I don't know this to be true, is the serpent represents how watching out for snakes forced us to use more brain power, the fruit of the tree of life being something akin to magic mushrooms delivering DMT to expand our brains.

I enjoy our conversation and appreciate you even if we don't see eye to eye on some things

 

[redbeer]

The bible starts out with god confined to Israel. God begins as a storm god and child of another god who gives him Israel as his inheritance. God's authority only existed in Israel and you had to be in Israel in order to worship God. Those were the rules people followed at the time. Even in the garden, god is depicted walking, meaning god had a limited physical form. Also, god is looking for Adam and Eve, meaning he doesn't know where they are, which demonstrates human faculties, not omnipotence.

The bible is a wonderful cross section of the evolution of man's idea of the divine.

My own theory, and I don't know this to be true, is the serpent represents how watching out for snakes forced us to use more brain power, the fruit of the tree of life being something akin to magic mushrooms delivering DMT to expand our brains.

I enjoy our conversation and appreciate you even if we don't see eye to eye on some things

As I too, it's not easy to find open/civil discussion of theology or politics in this world, lol. Not to boast or in any thought that I am better than another, 45 years ago, God came to me in all His glory to a young man who humbly and simply wanted to know 'what is this life and its reasons', making a promise if there's anything I can do to help, I would do it, even if it meant my life.....it was a very sincere simple prayer to this God I heard of but didn't know. Even after all these years I still haven't found language which can describe this thing called, "the Glory of God", but He came.....I was awe struck, amazed and the power and love was without limits as is the universe....an incredible experience which has not waned over the years.

Honestly, over the years I've seen people live much better lives than myself and I wonder constantly, "why me?". IDK, it's not logical but I cannot and will not deny the existence of God, not of my own learning or hearing from others, but through this experience He gave me. It's life changing and impossible to throw aside for whatever reason. My favorite verses in the entirety of the bible are these of Job:

(Job 42:3) Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
(Job 42:4) Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
(Job 42:5) I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
(Job 42:6) Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.


As David, I pray for God to keep me from presumptuous sins.

(Psa 19:13) Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

 

[Metanoia]

Therefore, "you shall not surely die," isn't referring to the physical!
We can clearly see that it isn't so.
WE ALL SURELY DIE...............PHYSICALLY!

Hard to see how this could be more confused….making the serpent telling the truth ? And thus making God the liar ? To believe that the serpent had any concept of spiritual life is amusable.

 

[Metanoia]

It is as simple and obvious as this: the knowledge of good and evil is the acceptance of opposites…..the ultimate opposite is life and death. When God said “you will surely die” He was absolutely correct. Adam and Eve and the serpent were all in the Garden….they had never experienced death so it was an unknown concept or reality for them…..giving them reason to believe the serpent. In the end God could only say “I told you so….but you did not listen”…..upon not dying immediately Adam and Eve could conclude that the serpent was right so no visible reason to change their behavior…..being ejected from the Garden there was no returning until Christ brought the Spirit…..

 

[Daisy]

Animals were not given the option of living forever or being obedient, as Adam and Eve were, so surely they knew what death was...they'd observed animals dying and decaying/returning to the earth...

 

[Metanoia]

Animals were not given the option of living forever or being obedient, as Adam and Eve were, so surely they knew what death was...they'd observed animals dying and decaying/returning to the earth...

I see no support for this in the Garden……God created living animals…. Genesis 1:29-30…..God gave every ‘green plant’ for food….not animals. Animals only became available for food after man was removed from the Garden….then because man had been given dominion over the animals….animals could become a source of food for man AFTER leaving the Garden…..

 

[Daisy]

I see no support for this in the Garden……God created living animals…. Genesis 1:29-30…..God gave every ‘green plant’ for food….not animals. Animals only became available for food after man was removed from the Garden….then because man had been given dominion over the animals….animals could become a source of food for man AFTER leaving the Garden…..

Did I say eat? No, I said die...

 

[Metanoia]

Did I say eat? No, I said die...

True…..begging the question…..where in Genesis does it say they will die in the creation story ? Isaiah 11:6-9 speaks of all kinds of animals that bring death to each other….but it is God’s intention that they will live in peace….verse 9…..”They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain “…..this represents a return to the Garden…..

 

[Daisy]

True…..begging the question…..where in Genesis does it say they will die in the creation story ? Isaiah 11:6-9 speaks of all kinds of animals that bring death to each other….but it is God’s intention that they will live in peace….verse 9…..”They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain “…..this represents a return to the Garden…..

Where does it say they will live forever? Nowhere...only Adam and Eve were told they would die IF they disobeyed...otherwise, they'd live forever...Isaiah is speaking of the paradise earth to come...the world is nothing like that now...btw, there is such a thing as natural causes of death...animals do not have to kill each other in order to die...

 

[Metanoia]

the world is nothing like that now...btw, there is such a thing as natural causes of death...animals do not have to kill each other in order to die...

 

[Metanoia]

.the world is nothing like that now...btw, there is such a thing as natural causes of death...animals do not have to kill each other in order to die...

You are stubbornly not seeing the difference between now and then(the Garden)……now man and beast all die for a multitude of reasons….the Garden essentially represents heaven on earth…..there is only life…..and, btw,….blood signifies life and is demonstrated by the use of ‘nefish’…..’living souls’ included animals…..anything with blood….plants, lacking blood, could not be said to have souls……the rules of now on this earth can only be life and death as opposed to heaven…..

 

[Daisy]

You are stubbornly not seeing the difference between now and then(the Garden)……now man and beast all die for a multitude of reasons….the Garden essentially represents heaven on earth…..there is only life…..and, btw,….blood signifies life and is demonstrated by the use of ‘nefish’…..’living souls’ included animals…..anything with blood….plants, lacking blood, could not be said to have souls……the rules of now on this earth can only be life and death as opposed to heaven…..

Animals were dying before man came onto the scene...the soul is not immortal so there's that...I'm not going to heaven so there's that, too...I am staying right here on earth just as God intended for man to do...His purpose has not changed...

"As for the heavens, they belong to Jehovah,+
But the earth he has given to the sons of men.+" Psalm 115:16