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You can't take away choice, you can just change which ones are available to [W:41]

D_NATURED

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I was thinking of how unfair it is to frame the abortion debate as choice verses life. Making abortion illegal doesn't take away the woman's choice to abort, only to do it safely. And, punishing women for making the choice to abort does not guarantee fetal life. So, the real debate is doctor verses hangar or dogma verses truth, but not life verses choice. That way of framing the argument is loaded with false rhetoric.

I'm almost at the point where I feel that any legislation that is supported overwhelmingly and almost exclusively by the faithful should be automatically rejected on the grounds that it becomes a de facto religious act and violates the first amendment and should not be relegated to the judicial branch to decide. I've heard from many people that, if a majority desire something, even a violation of the minority's right to free conscience, that it should be accepted as a proper result of the democratic process. I would argue, however, that democracy can only function when information is available and rational. When the facts of the debate are really not facts at all but just the subjective desires or fears of traditionalists, they pervert and corrupt democracy with a pretense of deliberation that is, actually, just blind adherence. Women, especially in a democracy, deserve better than to have their lives be forfeit to the changing tides of popular dogma.

So, if you're "pro-life", what you really are is pro-hangar, as that is the actual alternative to legal abortion that has been demonstrated well by history and, besides, life is not yours to defend when it's trapped in another's abdomen. And, if you're "pro-choice", you needn't be pro-abortion at all. You merely have to recognize that women have always had the choice NOT to give birth and, as such, realize that the law is powerless to do anything but make criminals of desperate women.

So, let's dispense with the juvenile redefining of the issue. Obviously, these false acts of religion are doing nothing to make the issues clear.
 

Paleocon

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I was thinking of how unfair it is to frame the abortion debate as choice verses life. Making abortion illegal doesn't take away the woman's choice to abort, only to do it safely. And, punishing women for making the choice to abort does not guarantee fetal life. So, the real debate is doctor verses hangar or dogma verses truth, but not life verses choice. That way of framing the argument is loaded with false rhetoric.

Sure. You can't make it impossible to commit murder or any other crime, just more difficult or less.

I'm almost at the point where I feel that any legislation that is supported overwhelmingly and almost exclusively by the faithful should be automatically rejected on the grounds that it becomes a de facto religious act

Then I would advice you to take a course in logic.
 

Lursa

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I dont know, I think it simply comes down to a ****load of ignorance (many pro-lifers believe things like PP promotes abortion, that abortion causes the unborn pain, that late term abortions are common and elective, that partial birth abortion is still a legitimate procedure, etc) They all *choose* (IMO) to believe the most egregious things in order to keep their self-righteousness stoked to high pitch.

I believe it simply comes down to most of them valuing the unborn more than individual women...and those that claim differently are lying (except as applied to their own personal behavior re: abortion)...because factually, legally and practically...they cannot be treated equally.

And just IMO, I dont see them as equal myself. I am honest when I say I value women more.
Because the unborn are not yet complete, have yet to develop the attributes beyond DNA that will make them *more* than human and may not even survive to be born to do so (15-20% are miscarried). They have not achieved the physical and mental attributes that do contribute to the status of born people as 'persons' under the law. It's not necessarily negative or positive....just fact. Until birth or at least viability, the unborn are less. To compare born persons to the unborn is to imply the born are 'less' as well.


And then there is also this, which I think is truly proof:

Lursa said:
The unborn cannot exercise any rights independently. None. Before birth it has no rights that can be separated from the mother (physically, legally, ethically, practically). It's a dependency that truly demonstrates that it is not equal.
 

Thrilla

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it's false and absurd to assert the pro-life position is predicated on religion or a religious belief.
 

Henrin

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I was thinking of how unfair it is to frame the abortion debate as choice verses life. Making abortion illegal doesn't take away the woman's choice to abort, only to do it safely. And, punishing women for making the choice to abort does not guarantee fetal life. So, the real debate is doctor verses hangar or dogma verses truth, but not life verses choice. That way of framing the argument is loaded with false rhetoric.

That is so freaking dumb. Making anything illegal doesn't take away the choice to do it. The point of making something illegal is to punish people that decide to take part in the activity that is illegal. If making something illegal just stopped people from committing the act then we would have no use for fines, courts or prisons.
 

Lursa

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That is so freaking dumb. Making anything illegal doesn't take away the choice to do it. The point of making something illegal is to punish people that decide to take part in the activity that is illegal. If making something illegal just stopped people from committing the act then we would have no use for fines, courts or prisons.

True, and it's no secret that there are pro-life people that treat both children AND the the desire for restrictive laws as punishment for women who dont behave the way they believe they should.

They would force her to have the kid 'because she opened her legs and now she has to pay the consequences.' Such compassion for both child and mother! They want that kid used as her punishment.

And sure, lock 'em up for having an abortion! A woman who just had a procedure to enable her to be a more productive and contributing member of society...locked up and now costing tax payers more $$. Such logic!

And of course we have those, even here...proudly...proclaim that those that do resort to (proposed future) illegal abortions and suffered or died "deserved" that punishment.

Yeah, the pro-life side does not remotely hold the moral High Ground here.
 

JayDubya

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Lack of safety for violent killers of innocent human beings is not a defect, it is a feature.
 

minnie616

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Exclusively no, mostly by far.

Exactly the Catholic religion is the largest organized religion in the US with 22 percent of the population members.
They are against direct abortion in all cases.

Today, the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant denomination in the United States, opposes elective abortion except to save the life of the mother.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints takes a position against abortion and holds that abortion is a form of killing. However, there are exceptions such as rape or health or life of the pregnant woman.


And yet...

According to a study by the Guttmacher Institute, "Almost three-quarters of women obtaining abortions in 2008 reported a religious affiliation. The largest proportion were Protestant (37 percent), and most of the rest said that they were Catholic (28 percent) or that they had no religious affiliation (27 percent). One in five abortion patients identified themselves as born-again, evangelical, charismatic or fundamentalist; 75 percent of these were Protestant.”

Why Do So Many Churchgoers Have Abortions? ? Charisma News
 
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Korimyr the Rat

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And sure, lock 'em up for having an abortion! A woman who just had a procedure to enable her to be a more productive and contributing member of society...locked up and now costing tax payers more $$. Such logic!

One might argue that a woman contributes more to society by bearing and raising a child than by the vast majority of paying jobs. This is not a slight against women, but rather a statement of the value of children.

Yeah, the pro-life side does not remotely hold the moral High Ground here.

They never have. They are misogynists and tyrants hiding behind a veneer of paternalistic concern.
 

D_NATURED

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it's false and absurd to assert the pro-life position is predicated on religion or a religious belief.

I hate having to argue that the sky is blue. Please spare me the willful ignorance of who is defending what. Those with a secular humanist sense of morality overwhelmingly support abortion rights and those who subscribe to a dogmatic morality overwhelmingly oppose it. Thus, safe abortions are much easier to get in truly secular countries like Sweden than in religious places like Texas or Afghanistan.

If you are pro-life, you have the catholics, the muslims and most protestant sects on your side and, despite what you claim here, they defend their position using words like "innocent", which is directly connected to the sense of shared sin that babies are born in to, according to the Abrahamic faiths, as well as the idea that god rightfully determines who lives and who doesn't.

So, not wanting to believe something does not make it true. In this case, the evidence is clear that religion is very much a part of the pro-life movement. I respectfully disagree with your opinion and the dishonest agenda of soft selling the religious component thereof that is obvious to those who are honestly looking at the issue.
 

D_NATURED

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That is so freaking dumb. Making anything illegal doesn't take away the choice to do it. The point of making something illegal is to punish people that decide to take part in the activity that is illegal. If making something illegal just stopped people from committing the act then we would have no use for fines, courts or prisons.

That's the thing about abortion, though. When they're done illegally, half the time the woman dies in the process or renders herself unable to carry future fetuses. Hell, even in the days before hangars, a woman who carried an unwanted baby could leap to her death or take poison and nobody could punish her dead body except for the imaginary sky man who was used to leverage the actions of the living toward an irrational, "spiritual" agenda. Thus, HIS usefulness to those who desire to control women.

What's really freaking dumb is your poor grasp of the facts here. Women grow fetuses within themselves and it can happen even when their intentions are NOT to grow one. If they are raped or if their birth control fails, then a more effective birth control method is needed and that's when abortion is called upon. To say to women that their society and its god cares more about the life of the fetus within them is to invite women to prove to society that the "precious" fetal life is inextricably tied to their worthless one. The religionists, who stand faithfully upon principles that often prove themselves to be useless in the service of human needs, are largely to blame for when women choose death over pregnancy. Death over pregnancy IS the calculation that has driven the secular morality that supports the right of choice.

It is only from a very unyielding dogma that the pro-life, all lives are equal in the eyes of god, perspective allows the dead bodies of grown women to be an acceptable byproduct of this irrational, societal sin avoidance technique. Dumb religious laws create desperation in young, pregnant women and then your god judges and punishes them for choosing death for themselves and, ultimately, for the fetus.

Removing the imagined dictates of the divine from the equation, it's clear that fetal life can NEVER be the equal of that which it depends upon for life. The very idea is so absurd that it calls into very serious question the thought processes of the faithful. God belief, at least which one, is a choice that the religious get to make. Yet, with very little thought about it, so many people mindlessly accept the inherited ignorance of their ancestors and, shamelessly, build contemporary society upon this morally shaky ground.

I'm appalled at the arrogance it takes to claim to know god's will deviates so glaringly from the rational, obvious statistics of human need. What kind of god is it that compels us to endure this contradictory paradigm that leaves our women dead in his service. I reject Him unconditionally and any moron who calls upon him as an authority over the bodies of women. Shame on you all for your deliberate ignorance and insensitivity.
 

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I hate having to argue that the sky is blue. Please spare me the willful ignorance of who is defending what. Those with a secular humanist sense of morality overwhelmingly support abortion rights and those who subscribe to a dogmatic morality overwhelmingly oppose it. Thus, safe abortions are much easier to get in truly secular countries like Sweden than in religious places like Texas or Afghanistan.

If you are pro-life, you have the catholics, the muslims and most protestant sects on your side and, despite what you claim here, they defend their position using words like "innocent", which is directly connected to the sense of shared sin that babies are born in to, according to the Abrahamic faiths, as well as the idea that god rightfully determines who lives and who doesn't.

So, not wanting to believe something does not make it true. In this case, the evidence is clear that religion is very much a part of the pro-life movement. I respectfully disagree with your opinion and the dishonest agenda of soft selling the religious component thereof that is obvious to those who are honestly looking at the issue.

ahh, so you actually think it's a fact that the pro-life position is predicated on religion/religious belief... amazing :lamo

unfortunately, your fact is false.... while religion surely endorses the pro-life position, it's a position that is not exclusive to religion, nor is it necessary to hold religious beliefs to endorse the pro-life position.

you need to do more thinking and less typing...
 

JayDubya

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That's the thing about abortion, though. When they're done illegally, half the time the woman dies in the process or renders herself unable to carry future fetuses.

Good. Dead or sterilized, either way such scum won't be killing future victims in this manner.
 

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Bodhisattva

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Good. Dead or sterilized, either way such scum won't be killing future victims in this manner.

Did you survive and abortion attempt? Is that why you are so filled with hate?
 

D_NATURED

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ahh, so you actually think it's a fact that the pro-life position is predicated on religion/religious belief... amazing :lamo

Said the man who couldn't rationally refute the implication and had to resort to a juvenile, uncomfortable laughter strategy.

unfortunately, your fact is false.... while religion surely endorses the pro-life position, it's a position that is not exclusive to religion, nor is it necessary to hold religious beliefs to endorse the pro-life position.

There's many kinds of dogmas and the one that maintains that fetuses are rights-endowed are among them. However, my point stands that without the sky man worshipers, the pro-life crowd would be statistically nil. Look around the world where abortion is legal. It's not supported on religious grounds anywhere. Yet, where it is not legal, the religious are in charge. It's too obvious to deny.

you need to do more thinking and less typing...

Yes, I'm sure a whole paragraph is too much for the average pro-hangar zealot. Just skip over the big words, if they're slowing you down.
 

D_NATURED

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Good. Dead or sterilized, either way such scum won't be killing future victims in this manner.

It's an immutable fact of human nature that the biggest evil can thrive in the smallest minds. Suddenly revealed, it never ceases to shock me.
 

JayDubya

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It's an immutable fact of human nature that the biggest evil can thrive in the smallest minds. Suddenly revealed, it never ceases to shock me.

Ah that explains why you behave as you do.

p.s. There really isn't much worse in the evil category than killing innocent human beings for your own personal gain.
 
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