I try to keep my criticisms legitimate. Sometimes they are not legitimate, but that's usually related to me not understanding some specific aspect, of which I'm more than willing to learn. Yes, I do change my opinion / position when new information or considerations come to the fore.
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Hindsight is 20/20. .During WWII no one knew that sticking up for the Chinese against the Japanese that China would bite us in the ass a decade or so later.
It seems to me that ISIS got its start in the Syrian civil war. That is the result of the Arab Spring not the Iraq war.The actual organization ISIS? No probably not. Something else? Entirely possible I suppose. The problem with positing a change so massive and taking place across such a gulf of time (its been more than a decade) is that its impossible to predict other things that might have happened given those circumstances. Though if you wanted I'm sure we could try and drum up some interesting hypothetical's.
Has China bitten us in the ass? Btw, it's not hindsight for everybody.
Those of us standing in protest of the invasion of Iraq had no delusions about the future.
A better question would be: would Saddam Hussein have prevented ISIS from coming into existence and the answer is, no. There's no way he could have prevented a rebellion in Syria. There's no way he could have stopped an ISIS invasion of Iraq, since he couldn't move his forces into the no-fly zone to engage them.
On a side note: the feverish effort to blame Bush is becoming embarrassing for the Libbos.
The group (the Islamic State or ISIS) originated as Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad in 1999, which was renamed Tanzim Qaidat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn—commonly known as al-Qaeda in Iraq (AQI)—when the group pledged allegiance to al-Qaeda in 2004. As Jama'at and later AQI, the group participated since August 2003 in the Iraqi insurgency which had followed the March 2003 invasion of Iraq. In January 2006, it joined other Sunni insurgent groups to form the Mujahideen Shura Council, which in October 2006 proclaimed the formation of the Islamic State of Iraq (ISI). ISI gained a significant presence in Al Anbar Governorate, Diyala Governorate and Baghdad Governorate.
Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad (Arabic: جماعة التوحيد والجهاد, Organization of Monotheism and Jihad) was a militant Jihadist[1] group led by the Jordanian national Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. This group's name may be abbreviated as JTJ or shortened to Tawhid and Jihad, Tawhid wal-Jihad, Tawhid al-Jihad, Al Tawhid or Tawhid. The group started in Jordan, then became a decentralized network during the Iraq insurgency in which foreign fighters were widely thought to play a key role, though some analysts said that it may have also had a considerable Iraqi membership.
A more interesting question: Would ISIS exist if Bush were still president?
I believe Obama pulling out and generally neglecting Iraq is part of the reason we have an ISIS problem today.
They never were.Anyone who answered "yes" forgets how Sadaam ruled that country with an iron fist.
Now the cat's away, and they mice are playing, so to speak.
It's as we all feared - some people are not ready for democracy.
1.China's support of the north Koreans in the Korean war.
2.China's support of the Vietcong in the Vietnam war.
3.China threatening our Japanese ally.
Unless everyone on the anti-war side is Mistress Cleo then the anti-war side could only speculate.
I think most people rightly interpret the poll question as "Would ISIS exist in Iraq today if Saddam was still in power?"
But from a literal interpretation, you are correct. ISIS, formerly known as Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad, certainly did exist even while Saddam was alive and ruling Iraq. However, I seriously doubt they'd ever have gained any traction in Iraq if Saddam was still ruling that country today.
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Terrorist didn't exist in Iraq while Saddam was in power. Extortion and outright brutality from Iraqi government lapdogs maybe, but not terrorism
I disagree.
Saddam's had a decent national defense system in place even after Operation Desert Storm. They couldn't contend with the overwhelming military force we unleashed upon them, but they certainly had the ability to put down any rebellion within its borders and had its military in the north that would have repelled any northern aggression. Of course, he may have let the Kurds get slaughtered, but there's no way he would have let any outside invaders come into Iraq. It would explain why no other country except the US had every invaded Iraq under Saddam's watch.
Now, I agree with you that the no-fly zone that the UN imposed would have been a problem for him, but I think he would have ignored it if Syrian air craft came south to attack his country. He certainly had the air power to repel them.
It's okay...I corrected myself. (See post #137)In fact, terrorism did exist under Saddam and he did indeed support terrorists.
.National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States
1) The Iraqis that made up the army then are the same Iraqis that make it up now.
2) Syrian aircraft wouldn't have invaded the no fly zone.
apdst said:A better question would be: would Saddam Hussein have prevented ISIS from coming into existence and the answer is, no. There's no way he could have prevented a rebellion in Syria. There's no way he could have stopped an ISIS invasion of Iraq, since he couldn't move his forces into the no-fly zone to engage them.
3) ISIS didn't use aircraft when they invaded Iraq.
4) Any Iraqi aircraft to enter the no fly zone would have been shot down.
It's okay...I corrected myself. (See post #137)
Same citizens, different skill levels (i.e., military discipline). Not the same "Iraqi Army" at all.
Link?
Then what was your point with taking the conversation in that direction?
I never said anything about Syrian aircraft entering Iraqi airspace.
[Quoute]You blend the two issues - Syrian rebels form ISIS, ISIS forces invade Iraq from the air from Syria. How is that possible when you yourself said "Syrian aircraft wouldn't have invaded the no fly zone" and ISIS was formed in Iraq? (Or atleast the ISIS that spun off from AIQ anyway.)
ISIS didn't invade Iraq. They were formed as a reconstituted brand of Al-Queda that was already operating in Iraq.
Okay, by whom? US-led NATO forces or the Syria airforce you claim wouldn't have entered the no-fly zone?
I can't say it enough: I never said anything about Syrian aircraft entering Iraqi airspace.
apdst said:A better question would be: would Saddam Hussein have prevented ISIS from coming into existence and the answer is, no. There's no way he could have prevented a rebellion in Syria. There's no way he could have stopped an ISIS invasion of Iraq, since he couldn't move his forces into the no-fly zone to engage them.[/B]
You brought that up.
ISIS invaded Iraq from Syria. That last June, when we had a chance to lay waste to them, while they were in the open.
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In Syria, they would exist. So whose side were we supposed to take, Assad allied with Iran or with ISIS?
. With Hussein, Mubarak Gaddafi and Assad, we had containment. Those figures are absent, and with that is the direct correlation in the rise of Islamic extremism.
You also have containment with pressure cookers, albiet to a finite extent
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