Would Europe be entirely different now if the two largest EU nations had not invaded Russia?

[Jredbaron96]

Not the only time Hitler made critical errors by ignoring this generals.

It was part of their fault the whole operation failed anyways.

Hitler wanted to go for Ukraine and the Caucuses for food and oil. Halder wanted to go for Moscow, and Hitler overruled him. So Halder pretended to agree and then sent his own orders anyway.

Had Hitler listened to most of his Generals he would have never conquered France. And at Kursk, he would have lost even more than Germany really did. His Generals made as many mistakes as he did.

 

[Ginza]

His commanders could have defeated Stalin/captured Moscow if the total idiot Hitler had not interfered in the military commands and strategies.

You have absolutely no evidence at all that this would have happened.

We all accept that Hitler had the final say, but he has been used by his former commanders as a scape goat for their own failures :

"After the war, the picture emerged of Hitler as a megalomaniac who refused to listen to his military experts and who, as a consequence, lost the war for Germany. That picture emerged due largely to the efforts of his former generals, who had their own reputations to protect. The truth was more complicated, even if Hitler's failings remained at the heart of it."

BBC - History - World Wars: Hitler's Leadership Style

Examine Adolf Hitler's shortcomings as a military leader. Discover why the Führer distrusted most of his generals and relied too much on his own instinct.

www.bbc.co.uk

The German army had triumphs as well as failures. One cannot put the blame on Hitler for his military's failures whilst not crediting him also for the many successful military campaigns.

 

[german hick]

Name me one country that has ever invaded Russia, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, Poland, Denmark, Greece and several others....and stolen so much.

shall we really go into british colonization of big parts of the world? Or are only European countries counting? Shall we ask indigenious people of Australia, Amerika, India and Afrika if they liked to be treated as they were? Did the british pay any reparations for all that wealth they stole? Germany did at least a bit and more than any other country

commonwealth hypocrisy...

 

[Ginza]

shall we really go into british colonization of big parts of the world?

If you want to, but why not start a different thread as this has absolutely no relevance here.

You are just trying to change the subject as a weak defence of German atrocities.

 

[german hick]

If you want to, but why not start a different thread as this has absolutely no relevance here.

now it gets ridicolous - if trapped with a lie it´s all of a sudden not relevant here - have a nice day

 

[Ginza]

The German army had the small British force at Dunkirk both outnumbered and out gunned but still failed to press home their advantage.

The German generals have tried to blame Hitler for holding back their forces but the truth has finally been revealed :

"After days of disorganized retreat the BEF had surprised the Germans on May 21 by staging a counterattack, using tanks and infantry, at the edge of the northern French city of Arras.

That counterattack seems to have unnerved a man who was to become perhaps the most proficient leader of panzer divisions, General Erwin Rommel. Rommel complained to the German commanding general, Field Marshal Gerd von Rundstedt, that his 7th Panzer Division had been attacked by “hundreds of enemy tanks.” In fact, the British had deployed 74 tanks of which only 16 were the latest generation and able to outfight Rommel’s armor."

‘Dunkirk’: Why Didn’t Hitler Go in For the Kill?

The British army was in full retreat, but suddenly German tanks were halted—twice. Hitler later said he gave Churchill ‘a sporting chance’ of survival. Churchill wasn’t interested.

www.thedailybeast.com

Records have shown that Hitler was more a "consent giver" to his generals than leading the decision making. But obviously, when it came to the major decisions he would have been involved.

 

[Peter King]

It was part of their fault the whole operation failed anyways.

Hitler wanted to go for Ukraine and the Caucuses for food and oil. Halder wanted to go for Moscow, and Hitler overruled him. So Halder pretended to agree and then sent his own orders anyway.

Had Hitler listened to most of his Generals he would have never conquered France. And at Kursk, he would have lost even more than Germany really did. His Generals made as many mistakes as he did.

Hitler was a strategic idiot, his constant desire to never want to even consider a strategic withdrawal cost many of his men their lives.

 

[Ginza]

now it gets ridicolous - if trapped with a lie it´s all of a sudden not relevant here - have a nice day

Er, look at the thread header.

As for lying, I do not lie. If you feel that I am mistaken, then show me where and I will gladly apologise for any error.

 

[Ginza]

Hitler was a strategic idiot, his constant desire to never want to even consider a strategic withdrawal cost many of his men their lives.

He very often allowed his forces to retreat so your statement "never" is blatantly incorrect.

The German forces conducted a strategic withdrawal all the way through North Africa, Russia, France, Belgium, Netherlands and Germany....check your history books.

He did unwisely prevent his men from retreating on several occasions.

 

[joluoto]

Agreed.

It is still the most traumatic event in Russian history.

We in the West hear constantly that the Russians fear their own government. There is little actual evidence of this.

They are generally very patriotic people and haven't hesitated in the past to rise up if they are not happy with their rulers.

The Russian population at large don't trust their government. "The government always lie" is something they learned during the Soviet era and is still something many believe today. This is for example why they can't convinve people to take the Covid vaccine. "If the government says we should take it there's something wrong with it" is the mentality.

 

[Ginza]

The Russian population at large don't trust their government. "The government always lie" is something they learned during the Soviet era and is still something many believe today. This is for example why they can't convinve people to take the Covid vaccine. "If the government says we should take it there's something wrong with it" is the mentality.

I guess we all have a lack of trust in our governments to some extent.

I doubt that they would be so patriotic if there was widespread and deep seated mistrust in their leaders.

My experience of Russians is that they are highly patriotic and mostly decent, hardworking people without the tendency to be overly politically correct and WOKE as are many today, especially those of the younger generation.

"The new Russian identity is a combination of religion, old Russian traditions and rediscovered patriotism. It helps explain how today’s Russians think, how President Putin acts and why he remains popular."

Pride, patriotism and how Putin helped redefine what it means to be a 'true Russian'

The new Russian identity is a combination of religion, old Russian traditions and rediscovered patriotism. It helps explain how today’s Russians think, how President Putin acts and why he remains popular. As part of our week-long series Inside Putin's Russia, special correspondent Nick Schifrin...

www.pbs.org

"For the first time since the fall of the Soviet Union, 64 percent of respondents said that Russians are a “great nation with a special place in world history.” Only 13 percent shared that sentiment in 1992, according to Levada. "

Patriotism at Historic Highs in Russia, Poll Shows

Patriotic fervor has reached historic highs in modern Russia, according to an independent Levada Center poll released Thursday. National pride has shot through the roof since the 2014 annexation of Crimea from Ukraine.

www.themoscowtimes.com

 

[Schrott]

Lol!

He was the elected leader. Of course he made decisions, but to suggest there was nobody else involved is an extremely ignorant suggestion.

Ever heard of the Nuremberg Trials? Obviously not.

Try reading up on them. You will learn a lot.

As I said, you really need to educate yourself. Hitler was not elected, he was appointed.

Now the big question for you : by whom and why.

 

[Ginza]

Hitler was not elected, he was appointed.

Are you really trying to suggest that Hitler was not supported by the majority of Germans?

Seriously?


"All but a handful of non-Nazis supported the war to the end"

Why Even Non-Nazi Germans Stuck With Hitler When Disaster Loomed

THE SECOND WORLD WAR was the most cataclysmic conflict in human history, so it's no surprise that books about it keep pouring forth 70 years after it ended. The German War: A Nation Under Arms, 1939-1945, by Nicholas Stargardt (Basic Books, $35), brilliantly and with impressive nuance and...

www.forbes.com

"We must learn to accept the difficult truth that Hitler’s regime was the most popular government in German history"

Why People Followed Hitler

Reinhard Heydrich ordered the immediate annihilation of Jews and Communist officials in the conquered Soviet territories; he headed the Gestapo, directed the concentration of Polish Jews into ghettos, and convened the notorious Wannsee conference to announce the...

link.springer.com

SERIOUSLY?

 

[joluoto]

Are you really trying to suggest that Hitler was not supported by the majority of Germans?

Seriously?


"All but a handful of non-Nazis supported the war to the end"

Why Even Non-Nazi Germans Stuck With Hitler When Disaster Loomed

THE SECOND WORLD WAR was the most cataclysmic conflict in human history, so it's no surprise that books about it keep pouring forth 70 years after it ended. The German War: A Nation Under Arms, 1939-1945, by Nicholas Stargardt (Basic Books, $35), brilliantly and with impressive nuance and...

www.forbes.com

"We must learn to accept the difficult truth that Hitler’s regime was the most popular government in German history"

Why People Followed Hitler

Reinhard Heydrich ordered the immediate annihilation of Jews and Communist officials in the conquered Soviet territories; he headed the Gestapo, directed the concentration of Polish Jews into ghettos, and convened the notorious Wannsee conference to announce the...

link.springer.com

SERIOUSLY?

He did NOT win the november 1932 election. And that was the last free and fair election in Germany until after the war. The Nazis became the largest party but had not nearly enough seats to control the Reichstag. He was then appointed Chancellor by idiot Conservatives who thought they could control him. I also want to point out that after the November election the Nazis and Communists did not together have enough seats to stall the political process, unlike the situation after the July election when they did. The November election meant the Nazis lost seats. So no, the Nazis were not elected to become the leaders of Germany.

 

[Ginza]

He did NOT win the november 1932 election.

That is technically correct.

There was no outright winner. But his party had massive support and were handed power :

"Adolf Hitler was appointed chancellor of Germany in 1933 following a series of electoral victories by the Nazi Party."

"Hitler did not win a majority to be voted into power, but he polled the second greatest result in Weimar history (after the SDP in 1919) and went on to build Nazi Germany on mass support."

Learn How Adolf Hitler Rose to Power, Who Supported Him and Why

Hitler did not take over a Germany and run it into destruction against the wishes of the populace. Learn how he gained and retained support.

www.thoughtco.com

How Did Adolf Hitler Happen?

Adolf Hitler was appointed chancellor of Germany in 1933 following a series of electoral victories by the Nazi Party. He ruled absolutely until his death by suicide in April 1945.

www.nationalww2museum.org

 

[SenorXm/Sirius]

It was part of their fault the whole operation failed anyways.

Hitler wanted to go for Ukraine and the Caucuses for food and oil. Halder wanted to go for Moscow, and Hitler overruled him. So Halder pretended to agree and then sent his own orders anyway.

Had Hitler listened to most of his Generals he would have never conquered France. And at Kursk, he would have lost even more than Germany really did. His Generals made as many mistakes as he did.

No, Hitler was an idiot... Had his plans to conquer the Russian oil fields worked, then what? How exactly were the Germans going to get the oil back to Germany?

Invading Russia was a huge mistake, Germany/Hitler splitting their forces was maybe a bigger mistake.

 

[TheParser]

Not just Hitler, he was supported enthusiastically by the whole German nation.

If the majority of Germans did actually support that horrible "leader," they certainly made a horrific blunder and were eventually hoist by their own petard.

 

[yankintx]

Of course, and this they were.....but only after tens of millions of Russians had died or been massacred during the invasions.

They have very good reasons to be wary of the West.

When will Russia apologize for grabbing a large part of Poland in Sep 1939, and wiping out the Polish Army Officer Corps.

Russia has a long history of expansion at the expense of its neighbors.

 

[joluoto]

That is technically correct.

There was no outright winner. But his party had massive support and were handed power :

"Adolf Hitler was appointed chancellor of Germany in 1933 following a series of electoral victories by the Nazi Party."

"Hitler did not win a majority to be voted into power, but he polled the second greatest result in Weimar history (after the SDP in 1919) and went on to build Nazi Germany on mass support."

Learn How Adolf Hitler Rose to Power, Who Supported Him and Why

Hitler did not take over a Germany and run it into destruction against the wishes of the populace. Learn how he gained and retained support.

www.thoughtco.com

How Did Adolf Hitler Happen?

Adolf Hitler was appointed chancellor of Germany in 1933 following a series of electoral victories by the Nazi Party. He ruled absolutely until his death by suicide in April 1945.

www.nationalww2museum.org

Mass support that by 1939 more was indifference and apathy than actual support. Even the first election the Nazis fixed, i.e. the March 1933 election, the Nazis were disappointed that they only got 44% of the votes (they were new at fixing elections, and they hadn't banned the other parties yet) and still had to rely on other parties to change the Constitution (which they were still able to do, and then dismiss those other parties). Which shows that there were not a support for the Nazis from a majority but from a minority.

I usually compare it with the Italian elections of 1924, Mussolini and the Fascists had been in power for a while, but not yet banned the opposition. They cheates as f*ck and harassed most opposition parties throughout the campaign, and still they felt they had to run on a National List with several famous non- Fascist politicians in order to win (they did of course win, got 60% of the vote, leading to Mussolini abolishing the last remnants of Italian democracy). But the point is there. The Fascists were cheating and using all kind of foul tactics and still felt they need to attach themselves to a list with big name non- Fascists out of fear they wouldn't win otherwise. Fascist parties were not as popular as usually claimed.

 

[snakestretcher]

Of course, and this they were.....but only after tens of millions of Russians had died or been massacred during the invasions.

They have very good reasons to be wary of the West.

Estimates vary, but around 25 million Russians died fighting off the Nazi invader. The day Barbarossa was launched and Hitler decided to fight a war on two fronts, was the day he began losing the war. After Kursk he was always on the back foot.

 

[snakestretcher]

When will Russia apologize for grabbing a large part of Poland in Sep 1939, and wiping out the Polish Army Officer Corps.

Russia has a long history of expansion at the expense of its neighbors.

My mother and grandmother lived in the part of Poland which was subsumed into Ukraine, and were exiled to Siberia for slave labour after the Russians murdered my grandfather during the invasion. They were never to return the their homeland and eventually made it to England after the war ended, via Persia and Palestine, as stateless refugees. My mother's best friend from school who was with them in Siberia wrote the story of their exile. Interested parties can find it here...

To England Through Siberia: Journey without a Ticket: Amazon.co.uk: Kawecka, Z.K.: 9780951588307: Books

Buy To England Through Siberia: Journey without a Ticket 4th ed. by Kawecka, Z.K. (ISBN: 9780951588307) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

 

[Chagos]

Perhaps you should Google "France" and "Germany" and their power and influence within the EU.

Perhaps you should learn to formulate your thread titles less daftly.

 

[Peter King]

That is technically correct.

There was no outright winner. But his party had massive support and were handed power :

"Adolf Hitler was appointed chancellor of Germany in 1933 following a series of electoral victories by the Nazi Party."

"Hitler did not win a majority to be voted into power, but he polled the second greatest result in Weimar history (after the SDP in 1919) and went on to build Nazi Germany on mass support."

Learn How Adolf Hitler Rose to Power, Who Supported Him and Why

Hitler did not take over a Germany and run it into destruction against the wishes of the populace. Learn how he gained and retained support.

www.thoughtco.com

How Did Adolf Hitler Happen?

Adolf Hitler was appointed chancellor of Germany in 1933 following a series of electoral victories by the Nazi Party. He ruled absolutely until his death by suicide in April 1945.

www.nationalww2museum.org

I have already stated that in 1932 the Nazi party lost the election as he ended up with fewer seats as he won in the previous election.

He was appointed as chancellor because the conservatives thought they could bamboozle Hitler into a situation where he was seen as having real power but the conservatives would smooth the brutal edges of the Nazi's. Von Papen would be vice chancellor and other non-nazi's would be put in key government positions. So von Papen, fearing the disruptions from the Nazi thugs of the SA and their violent clashes with the communist, decided they could put Hitler in some sort of puppet government in which the real power would be Hindenburg and von Papen and his conservatives.

But upon becoming chancellor Hitler seized power completely making the previous elections in 1932 the last free elections. The communist party was forbidden (his biggest competitors in power). He never won even close to electoral victory/majority support in a free and fair elections.

You are wrong as usual.

 

[bomberfox]

The victor writes the history books. The only ones that Napoleon suppressed/suffered was the defeated ruling elite who later on wrote the history books when Napoleon was defeated.

And everything is relative of course.

Actually thats not always true.

 

[bomberfox]

Hitler was a strategic idiot, his constant desire to never want to even consider a strategic withdrawal cost many of his men their lives.

He thought willpower alone would win the war. Turns out reality doesnt bend to a single person’s will anymore than wanting to fly stops gravity.