World trade moves on, without the US

[ataraxia]

OK, let's take a look at that (bolded above) idea. You are immediately confronted with lack of training facilities in the area - is it best to relocate schools to that area or to move those desiring and able to be retrained in the area to existing schools? You are then confronted with lack of solar panel manufacturing facilities in the area - is it best to move solar panel factories to that area or to move those few specially trained in the area to the existing factories?



https://www.technologyreview.com/s/602151/can-we-really-retrain-coal-wotrkers-for-jobs-in-solar/

Again, you ask good questions. These are things that will require a lot of discussion, negotiation, long term strategic planning, and compromise. It requires judgment and assessment of the resources available, and what can be done with them. And it will require government planning and implementation too. Probably a lot of it. Gasp!:shock:

But is long as you think no planning is needed because the free market magically takes care of everything for the best, and you don’t want government to do anything ever (or worse yet, only intervening to preserve the status quo despite free market demands), then there’s no point discussing this issue, is there?

But then don’t be surprised if the US economy becomes a backwater economy in the world. Surely that’s no way to make America great again, is it?

 

[ThoughtEx.]

Yep, **** those who wish to work in the construction trades to support themselves and their dependents - they should get some (serious?) capital and have others do the grunt work.

That's not what I said, part of capitalism is paying a fair price for resources. Labor is a resource. Who provides that resource is irrelevant. What a fair price for them, is up to them. If it's lower than your fair price, I'm going with them.
Your opinion that because they are chinese or mexican means their work is lower quality, is your flaw, not mine.

And you know what, if we opened the border with Mexico, helped them get their crime under control, every single American citizen alive today could start investing capital in Mexico. You could literally be what the Rockefellers are, in Mexico. They haven't developed hardly any trade infrastructure, truck routes, domestic supply lines, hell all their banks are foreign owned.

All we need to do, to turn our entire population into wealthy people with passive incomes from investment. Is stop demonizing the people we would be profiting off. And start working on real solutions to ensure property rights are enforced in Mexico. Only thing stopping you from buying a 15 year old semi truck and moving it down to Mexico to start routes between one city and the next. Is your opinions.

Mexico is in such a state, that it would only take a little wealth to get in at the ground floor. Like all the big companies today did when we were developing.

Or you could be xenophobic and let the already huge companies pick up the opportunities because you are content being a handy man.

Your problem, not mine.

And FYI, once we start investing capital in Mexico, they'll stop coming here for better jobs. Solving your problem of cheap labor coming into the US.

There is your solution.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Again, you ask good questions. These are things that will require a lot of discussion, negotiation, long term strategic planning, and compromise. It requires judgment and assessment of the resources available, and what can be done with them. And it will require government planning and implementation too. Probably a lot of it. Gasp!:shock:

But is long as you think no planning is needed because the free market magically takes care of everything for the best, and you don’t want government to do anything ever (or worse yet, only intervening to preserve the status quo despite free market demands), then there’s no point discussing this issue, is there?

But then don’t be surprised if the US economy becomes a backwater economy in the world. Surely that’s no way to make America great again, is it?

Changes occur, folks adapt and life goes on. Places that try to use central government planning to micromanage every detail (like China, DPRK or Venezuela) don't always end up being the utopias that they set out to become. I have no objection to trying different ideas on a modest scale (demonstration projects/programs?) but too often once a federal project, program, agency or department is established it takes on a life of its own, demands more funding and never goes away.

https://www.usda.gov/media/blog/201...iversary-rural-electrification-administration

 

[ttwtt78640]

That's not what I said, part of capitalism is paying a fair price for resources. Labor is a resource. Who provides that resource is irrelevant. What a fair price for them, is up to them. If it's lower than your fair price, I'm going with them.
Your opinion that because they are chinese or mexican means their work is lower quality, is your flaw, not mine.

And you know what, if we opened the border with Mexico, helped them get their crime under control, every single American citizen alive today could start investing capital in Mexico. You could literally be what the Rockefellers are, in Mexico. They haven't developed hardly any trade infrastructure, truck routes, domestic supply lines, hell all their banks are foreign owned.

All we need to do, to turn our entire population into wealthy people with passive incomes from investment. Is stop demonizing the people we would be profiting off. And start working on real solutions to ensure property rights are enforced in Mexico. Only thing stopping you from buying a 15 year old semi truck and moving it down to Mexico to start routes between one city and the next. Is your opinions.

Mexico is in such a state, that it would only take a little wealth to get in at the ground floor. Like all the big companies today did when we were developing.

Or you could be xenophobic and let the already huge companies pick up the opportunities because you are content being a handy man.

Your problem, not mine.

And FYI, once we start investing capital in Mexico, they'll stop coming here for better jobs. Solving your problem of cheap labor coming into the US.

There is your solution.

You have no idea what I meant by better quality work. It has nothing to do with race, ethnicity or national origin. It has to do with the materials and construction techniques used. Only a fool would use MDF trim in a bathroom (it will only last until it gets damp) but it saves money and thus increases profit. I have seen drywall "tacked up" with 4d common nails about 18" on center on the walls and ceiling - it may have saved money and installation time but the ceiling started falling off less than two years later. A lot of my work is replacing/reparing the "bargain" work done by prior contractors. When hiring a contractor based on their "great price" it is advisible to find out why/how they can do the "same" job for 35% to 40% less.

 

[ThoughtEx.]

You have no idea what I meant by better quality work. It has nothing to do with race, ethnicity or national origin. It has to do with the materials and construction techniques used. Only a fool would use MDF trim in a bathroom (it will only last until it gets damp) but it saves money and thus increases profit. I have seen drywall "tacked" up with 4d common nails about 18" on center on the walls and ceiling - it may have saved money and installation time but the ceiling started falling off less than two years later. A lot of my work is replacing/reparing the "bargain" work done by prior contractors. When hiring a contractor based on their "great price" it is advisible to find out why/how they can do the "same" job for 35% to 40% less.

yeah, and when evaluating the mom and pop shop that makes his pitch tearing down the other guys work, it's best to ask why he charges and values his work so much. And if it's based solely on the opinions of past customers, and he doesn't show me a portfolio of past work, and other commitments I need to bid against to take him. Then he's just some old dude that's bull****ting me, and his work is just as ****ty as the next guys.

I've built three warehouses, two hydroponic factories, and had a house remodeled.

It was the mom and pop guy who operated off word and mouth remodeling my house that ****ed me. Not the contractors. All his great work turned out to be **** work, and all his references were his drinking buddies that had him build a shed or a deck one time 30 years ago.

So no, I'm not interested in keeping your dreams alive.

 

[ttwtt78640]

yeah, and when evaluating the mom and pop shop that makes his pitch tearing down the other guys work, it's best to ask why he charges and values his work so much. And if it's based solely on the opinions of past customers, and he doesn't show me a portfolio of past work, and other commitments I need to bid against to take him. Then he's just some old dude that's bull****ting me, and his work is just as ****ty as the next guys.

I've built three warehouses, two hydroponic factories, and had a house remodeled.

It was the mom and pop guy who operated off word and mouth remodeling my house that ****ed me. Not the contractors. All his great work turned out to be **** work, and all his references were his drinking buddies that had him build a shed or a deck one time 30 years ago.

So no, I'm not interested in keeping your dreams alive.

My business is 100% repeat customers and their referrals (most of whom have seen my past work). I do not advertise or solicit bids. I'm sorry that you got burned but you likely thought that you had saved money by taking that guy's low bid. Building sheds and decks is not remodeling or finish carpentry - sometimes you actually get what you pay for but you always pay for whatever you get.

I guarantee my work and have only been called back once when a customer, who I had built a ramp into a shed for three years prior, bought a longer riding lawn mower which bottomed out on the ramp to shed floor transition. I simply added a few boards to the ramp's surface a couple feet back from the shed's doorway and the longer mower drove in and out just fine - I charged nothing for that "jiffy fix" but he insisted on paying me.

 

[ThoughtEx.]

My business is 100% repeat customers and their referrals (most of whom have seen my past work). I do not advertise or solicit bids. I'm sorry that you got burned but you likely thought that you had saved money by taking that guy's low bid. Building sheds and decks is not remodeling or finish carpentry - sometimes you actually get what you pay for but you always pay for whatever you get.

I guarantee my work and have only been called back once when a customer, who I had built a ramp into a shed for three years prior, bought a longer riding lawn mower which bottomed out on the ramp to shed transition. I simply added a few boards to the ramp's surface a couple feet back from the shed's doorway and the longer mower drove in and out just fine - I charged nothing for that "jiffy fix" but he insisted on paying me.

No, I paid him more, just so I wouldn't have a crew of 12 dudes in my house for a month. I paid him up front.

He worked two weeks on a job that should have taken him months, said he was done, and ****ed off.

I'd sue him, but he don't got nothing worth taking.

Actual contractors, I would've had recourse.

And if you don't accept new business and can subsist off the charity of your past customers. Then why are you talking about market conditions as if it threatens your business.

Fact of the matter is, scammers operate in the same margins you do. Using your situation to formulate opinions on market forces is not wise. It's not capitalism. And what works to ensure your livelihood stagnates everyone else.

I'd rather float you out to sea on the proverbial iceberg.

 

[ttwtt78640]

No, I paid him more, just so I wouldn't have a crew of 12 dudes in my house for a month. I paid him up front.

He worked two weeks on a job that should have taken him months, said he was done, and ****ed off.

I'd sue him, but he don't got nothing worth taking.

Actual contractors, I would've had recourse.

And if you don't accept new business and can subsist off the charity of your past customers. Then why are you talking about market conditions as if it threatens your business.

Fact of the matter is, scammers operate in the same margins you do. Using your situation to formulate opinions on market forces is not wise. It's not capitalism. And what works to ensure your livelihood stagnates everyone else.

I'd rather float you out to sea on the proverbial iceberg.

Again, I'm sorry that you got burned. I rarely charge anything up front, when I do it's for a material draw on materials over $2K and I have them on the job site within 48 hours and present the receipt(s) for them to the customer. Even with my limited capital, I normally do not take any money up front, I am bonded for up to $24K and never mark up materials.

 

[ThoughtEx.]

Again, I'm sorry that you got burned. I rarely charge anything up front, when I do it's for a material draw on materials over $2K and I have them on the job site within 48 hours and present the receipt(s) for them to the customer. Even with my limited capital, I normally do not take any money up front, I am bonded for up to $24K and never mark up materials.

I'm not calling you dishonest. Or that dishonest people is why the handyman industry shouldn't factor in. I'm just saying, it's best we don't shut down borders and charge big tariffs. Because, a lot of the trade deals we are in, seem like they benefit the other side more. I won't lie, it seems that way. If you are looking at it from a very limited viewpoint.

We want Mexico to develop other industries rather than agricultural, because AG is where they compete with us most. We want to kill their AG industry, and have them buy from us. But at the same time, we want them to develop something we don't want to do. So we make a trade deal, that will over a couple decades bleed their farms and build their factories.

Now it seems like we are throwing money at them, but we are laying the ground work for capitalists like myself to go in after the ag market in Mexico is dead, and just start building on all that cheap land with all that cheap labor. We are priming their pump.

Trump is extremely short sighted, which is why he kept going bankrupt and now no US banks will deal with him. This plan he has to mess with our future is bull****.

It's basically he came into our farm, said those beans look weird, and set them on fire. Meanwhile we are screaming thats corn you idiot, it's not grown yet. Sure you don't see the effects now, but if you were counting on that crop in the future. You're ****ed.

Until Ag in Mexico is dead, and those factories built to replace it, we are going to have seasonal migrants coming here to work on our farms putting their farms out of business. It's a growing pain. One we planned for and designed into the plan.

We just didn't account for how stubborn Americans are, and how much they love manual labor as a career choice.

 

[ttwtt78640]

I'm not calling you dishonest. Or that dishonest people is why the handyman industry shouldn't factor in. I'm just saying, it's best we don't shut down borders and charge big tariffs. Because, a lot of the trade deals we are in, seem like they benefit the other side more. I won't lie, it seems that way. If you are looking at it from a very limited viewpoint.

We want Mexico to develop other industries rather than agricultural, because AG is where they compete with us most. We want to kill their AG industry, and have them buy from us. But at the same time, we want them to develop something we don't want to do. So we make a trade deal, that will over a couple decades bleed their farms and build their factories.

Now it seems like we are throwing money at them, but we are laying the ground work for capitalists like myself to go in after the ag market in Mexico is dead, and just start building on all that cheap land with all that cheap labor. We are priming their pump.

Trump is extremely short sighted, which is why he kept going bankrupt and now no US banks will deal with him. This plan he has to mess with our future is bull****.

It's basically he came into our farm, said those beans look weird, and set them on fire. Meanwhile we are screaming thats corn you idiot, it's not grown yet. Sure you don't see the effects now, but if you were counting on that crop in the future. You're ****ed.

Until Ag in Mexico is dead, and those factories built to replace it, we are going to have seasonal migrants coming here to work on our farms putting their farms out of business. It's a growing pain. One we planned for and designed into the plan.

We just didn't account for how stubborn Americans are, and how much they love manual labor as a career choice.

My current situation is not much affected by illegal immigrant competition. I am semi-retired and my girlfriend and I are getting Social Security so I don't need work to afford the rent, utilities or to eat but like to have extra funds available to be able to do more than that. Those that must depend on getting their reasonable bids accepted to meet their living expenses are being hurt by having to compete with those willing to live much like third worlders. Not all of those low bidders do crappy work either, or that would soon become known locally, but many of them have no aversion to having to move around frequently.

 

[ThoughtEx.]

My current situation is not much affected by illegal immigrant competition. I am semi-retired and my girlfriend and I are getting Social Security so I don't need work to afford the rent, utilities or to eat but like to have extra funds available to be able to do more than that. Those that must depend on getting their reasonable bids accepted to meet their living expenses are being hurt by having to compete with those willing to live much like third worlders. Not all of those low bidders do crappy work either, or that would soon become known locally, but many of them have no aversion to having to move around frequently.

In my perfect world, those guys having to do more to compete for construction gigs, would get their choice of education for higher fields. I'm not talking about liberal arts college, either. I think all trade school should be free and offered right after high school. The return on that investment would just blow your mind. And I will gladly pay tax for it to happen.

I also want to retool what we teach kids in high school about the economy. How it works, and how they can take advantage of it.

Did you know the only thing stopping normal middle class Americans from investing in Mexico like Morgan, Chase, and Carnegie invested in the US is the Drug Cartels. That's it. Even someone earning 40k a year could invest a little in mexico every year and eventually build a business where his children never have to work again. And then there is South America after that.

If you looked at, I mean really looked at, and compared domestic infrastructure of the US compared to everyone in this hemisphere besides Canada, you'd see the money to be made.

But, those damn Cartels.

So why not legalize all drugs, offer them through hospitals under a physicians care, and starve the Cartels. And then we can tap those markets, those millions of people, as income sources.

We can Walmart them. And the American Middle Class as the driving factor, you'll have Universal Income for Americans. If you play it right. Through Capitalism.

Capitalism wins, and uplifts people from poverty, the kind of poverty where you've never seen a washing machine. This is how it's done.

Only thing holding us up, is people stuck in their ways.

 

[ttwtt78640]

In my perfect world, those guys having to do more to compete for construction gigs, would get their choice of education for higher fields. I'm not talking about liberal arts college, either. I think all trade school should be free and offered right after high school. The return on that investment would just blow your mind. And I will gladly pay tax for it to happen.

I also want to retool what we teach kids in high school about the economy. How it works, and how they can take advantage of it.

Did you know the only thing stopping normal middle class Americans from investing in Mexico like Morgan, Chase, and Carnegie invested in the US is the Drug Cartels. That's it. Even someone earning 40k a year could invest a little in mexico every year and eventually build a business where his children never have to work again. And then there is South America after that.

If you looked at, I mean really looked at, and compared domestic infrastructure of the US compared to everyone in this hemisphere besides Canada, you'd see the money to be made.

But, those damn Cartels.

So why not legalize all drugs, offer them through hospitals under a physicians care, and starve the Cartels. And then we can tap those markets, those millions of people, as income sources.

We can Walmart them. And the American Middle Class as the driving factor, you'll have Universal Income for Americans. If you play it right. Through Capitalism.

Capitalism wins, and uplifts people from poverty, the kind of poverty where you've never seen a washing machine. This is how it's done.

Only thing holding us up, is people stuck in their ways.

I agree that acquiring more skills would certainly help anyone in the construction trades. I get more work because I can do carpentry (framing, trim and finish), hardwood flooring, carpeting, roofing, skirting/siding, painting (interior and exterior), drywall, plumbing, electrical and pier & beam leveling. I had intended to get HVAC skills but that is expensive and has many hoops to jump through to get licensed - I have friend that does quite well in that specialty.

Most of the folks I that I know who are doing construction work do so on specialty crews doing only one trade and lack the tools, skills and/or desire to do much else. Some work as subs for general contractors who get lots of government contracts which pay scale wages but those trying to make it on primarily private jobs, especially on new housing developments, are feeling the pinch.

 

[ThoughtEx.]

I agree that acquiring more skills would certainly help anyone in the construction trades. I get more work because I can do carpentry (framing, trim and finish), hardwood flooring, carpeting, roofing, skirting/siding, painting (interior and exterior), drywall, plumbing, electrical and pier & beam leveling. I had intended to get HVAC skills but that is expensive and has many hoops to jump through to get licensed - I have friend that does quite well in that specialty.

Most of the folks I that I know who are doing construction work do so on specialty crews doing only one trade and lack the tools, skills and/or desire to do much else. Some work as subs for general contractors who get lots of government contracts which pay scale wages but those trying to make it on primarily private jobs, especially on new housing developments, are feeling the pinch.

They don't even have to be married to construction, there are loads and loads of trade schools people don't even hear about offering careers they don't even know exist when they are in high school. Or after they get laid off, or when the work dries up.

If we put out PSA's, made it free, we could fill a lot of desperately need positions that we are importing people from Australia to fill currently.