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Willie Nelson: "Occupy the Food System"

samsmart

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Lit*tle did Willie Nel*son know when he recorded “Crazy” years ago just how crazy it would be*come for our cher*ished fam*ily farm*ers in Amer*ica. Nel*son, Pres*i*dent of Farm Aid, has re*cently called for the na*tional Oc*cupy move*ment to de*clare an “Oc*cupy the Food Sys*tem” ac*tion.


Nel*son states, “Cor*po*rate con*trol of our food sys*tem has led to the loss of mil*lions of fam*ily farm*ers, de*struc*tion of our soil…”


Hun*dreds of cit*i*zens, (even in*clud*ing NYC chefs in their white chef hats) joined Oc*cupy the Food Sys*tem groups, ie Food Democ*racy Now, gath*ered out*side the Fed*eral Courts in Man*hat*tan on Jan*u*ary 31st, to sup*port or*ganic fam*ily farm*ers in their land*mark law*suit against Big Agribusi*ness giant Mon*santo. (Or*ganic Seed Grow*ers & Trade As*so*ci*a*tion v. Mon*santo) Oral ar*gu*ments were heard that day con*cern*ing the law*suit by 83 plain*tiffs rep*re*sent*ing over 300,000 or*ganic farm*ers, or*ganic seed grow*ers, and or*ganic seed busi*nesses.


The law*suit ad*dresses the bizarre and shock*ing issue of Mon*santo ha*rass*ing and threat*en*ing or*ganic farm*ers with law*suits of “patent in*fringe*ment” if any or*ganic farmer ends up with any trace amount of GM seeds on their or*ganic farm*land.

300,000 Organic Farmers Sue Monsanto in Federal Court: Decision on March 31st to Go to Trial | NationofChange
 

Harry Guerrilla

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For 1, organic farming is dumb, but I agree with these guys on a couple of issues.
Particularly IP infringement when the farmer wasn't actively or passively trying to infringe.

They didn't do it on purpose, Monsanto should back off.
 

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For 1, organic farming is dumb, but I agree with these guys on a couple of issues.
Particularly IP infringement when the farmer wasn't actively or passively trying to infringe.

They didn't do it on purpose, Monsanto should back off.

Well, to be fair, these organic farms are just supplying a commodity that already has a customer base. So if people want to pay more for organic food then there's nothing wrong with a businesses supplying that demand.

But yeah, Monsanto are being cockknockers.
 

Goshin

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It can't replicate the yields for staple foods, that is needed to supply the world.
We're talking about a reduction of 30%+/-.

A lot of it tends to be a marketing gimmick too.

The only issue I have is that hybrids and geneered crops don't reproduce naturally; you have to keep buying Monsanto seed every year.

For most bulk farming that's fine.

But I support keeping a minority of farming using "heirloom seeds" that can be reproduced by the farmer on site, if for no other reason than if something goes wrong and ALL seed were Monsanto patent seeds, we'd get one more good crop and then die off by the billions.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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The only issue I have is that hybrids and geneered crops don't reproduce naturally; you have to keep buying Monsanto seed every year.

For most bulk farming that's fine.

That's usually because they're designed that way.
Although genetic drift and other anomalies can change that.

I'm not in favor of IP on living things though.

But I support keeping a minority of farming using "heirloom seeds" that can be reproduced by the farmer on site, if for no other reason than if something goes wrong and ALL seed were Monsanto patent seeds, we'd get one more good crop and then die off by the billions.

That's fine for novelty farming, etc.
But if there were a total ban on conventional farming methods, a giant chunk of the world would starve to death.
Pushing "organic" farming methods could lead to a self induced Malthusian catastrophe.
 

Temporal

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It can't replicate the yields for staple foods, that is needed to supply the world.
We're talking about a reduction of 30%+/-.

Who said anything about feeding the whole world, or replacing industrial agriculture completely?

Part of why I eat organic is because of how unregulated the agricultural sector has become. We have a few key corporations controlling the food supply and their factory practices are appalling. We could still eat non-organic food and not have to suffer lysteria poisoning or artificial hormones, but the FDA is staffed by some of the biggest players in the agricultural business so there's no point in trying to appeal to logic.

A lot of it tends to be a marketing gimmick too.

A head of lettuce that hasn't been sprayed with chemical pesticides and herbicides is a gimmick?
 

Harry Guerrilla

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Who said anything about feeding the whole world, or replacing industrial agriculture completely?

Part of why I eat organic is because of how unregulated the agricultural sector has become. We have a few key corporations controlling the food supply and their factory practices are appalling. We could still eat non-organic food and not have to suffer lysteria poisoning or artificial hormones, but the FDA is staffed by some of the biggest players in the agricultural business so there's no point in trying to appeal to logic.

Nah it's regulated, it's just that regulation tends to breed cronyism and corruption of both the government and the private interests involved.


A head of lettuce that hasn't been sprayed with chemical pesticides and herbicides is a gimmick?

Many plants generate their own pesticides, that are just as dangerous as man made versions.
Why does it matter?

Yes, in some cases, the organic industry is playing to the ignorance of their consumers.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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There is lots of evidence to back this up too.
Around 99.99% of all carcinogenic pesticides that people eat, are all natural.
Meaning that the plants they eat, created these pesticides.

A large part of the organic movement is bound in myth and politics.
 

Temporal

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Nah it's regulated, it's just that regulation tends to breed cronyism and corruption of both the government and the private interests involved.

Not regulated enough if you ask me. Watch Food Inc.

Many plants generate their own pesticides, that are just as dangerous as man made versions.
Why does it matter?

Link?

Yes, in some cases, the organic industry is playing to the ignorance of their consumers.

Then it's the consumer's fault for being ignorant. It's not that difficult to find out which organic produce is real or not, and if the FDA would get off its butt we could have the term "organic" regulated so that people who shop under that label aren't being deceived.

Harry Guerrilla said:
There is lots of evidence to back this up too.
Around 99.99% of all carcinogenic pesticides that people eat, are all natural.
Meaning that the plants they eat, created these pesticides.

Based on what studies? We are surrounded by carcinogens but those same plants also contain antioxidants which fight the very cancerous compounds they might contain. See, the problem with the kind of research you've obviously been reading, is that they extract and concentrate single chemical compounds, inject them into rats at levels that would never normally enter their body via digestion, and then declare that [insert food name] can cause cancer.

The body is way more dynamic than that, as are the chemical compositions of the plants we eat.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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Not regulated enough if you ask me. Watch Food Inc.

Science > than dramatizations of reality.



JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie


Then it's the consumer's fault for being ignorant. It's not that difficult to find out which organic produce is real or not, and if the FDA would get off its butt we could have the term "organic" regulated so that people who shop under that label aren't being deceived.

It is regulated.
Also, regulated organic farmers are still allowed to use pesticides.


Based on what studies? We are surrounded by carcinogens but those same plants also contain antioxidants which fight the very cancerous compounds they might contain. See, the problem with the kind of research you've obviously been reading, is that they extract and concentrate single chemical compounds, inject them into rats at levels that would never normally enter their body via digestion, and then declare that [insert food name] can cause cancer.

The body is way more dynamic than that, as are the chemical compositions of the plants we eat.

That's exactly what they do with synthetic pesticides and that's exactly why people switch to organics.
It's hilarious stuff.

More reading....

Mythbusting 101: Organic Farming > Conventional Agriculture | Science Sushi, Scientific American Blog Network

The State Of My Ignorance: The Truth About Organic Food
 

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Science > than dramatizations of reality.

Nice dodge.


My critique is the same as I already mentioned. Their method was to extract these natural pesticides, concentrate them at unnatural levels, and inject them into animals. Of course cancer will occur when that happens. Human diets are diverse and the more different kinds of foods you eat - especially fruits and veggies - the more that you will be protected. Everything you eat, regardless of what it is, has foreign material in it that your body doesn't want. That's what the waste channels are for.

At least the "pesticides" in plants are naturally occurring, which means our bodies have a biochemical basis for dealing with that. Compare that to petroleum pesticides which have guaranteed toxicity.

It is regulated.
Also, regulated organic farmers are still allowed to use pesticides.

Yes I know.

That's exactly what they do with synthetic pesticides and that's exactly why people switch to organics.
It's hilarious stuff.

That's not why I eat organic food, but you are welcome to your assumptions. If I bite an apple, peach, carrot (with skin), or pear that is non-organic, my throat begins to swell up. My doctors tried telling me that this was a food allergy (which is true in many cases). I got allergy testing and it came up negative for all these things. I always had to skin my fruit, until I tried eating organic fruit with the peel.

There is a difference. If you're relying on studies alone to make that determination for you instead of paying attention to what your body is telling you, then you are not getting the full picture. But maybe your body is not as sensitive as mine and can deal with the various chemicals in food.


All these do is reveal bad practices in certain organic farming companies. Not all of them are subject to this. Also, to be fair, I am currently living in western Canada where admittedly the organic food is better. California is not too bad though.

If you don't believe in organics then that's your business... but calling me stupid for listening to my own body is sheer presumptive arrogance on your part.
 
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rocket88

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There is lots of evidence to back this up too.
Around 99.99% of all carcinogenic pesticides that people eat, are all natural.
Meaning that the plants they eat, created these pesticides.

A large part of the organic movement is bound in myth and politics.

That's all true, but some people are willing to pay the premium price for the label, someone will supply it.

Certainly not saying that regular farming should be illegal...just that if someone's gonna buy it, someone's gonna sell it.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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Nice dodge.

Nope.
Documentaries don't have the solid scientific foundation behind them, like science research papers.


My critique is the same as I already mentioned. Their method was to extract these natural pesticides, concentrate them at unnatural levels, and inject them into animals. Of course cancer will occur when that happens. Human diets are diverse and the more different kinds of foods you eat - especially fruits and veggies - the more that you will be protected. Everything you eat, regardless of what it is, has foreign material in it that your body doesn't want. That's what the waste channels are for.

At least the "pesticides" in plants are naturally occurring, which means our bodies have a biochemical basis for dealing with that. Compare that to petroleum pesticides which have guaranteed toxicity.

:lol:

"Naturally occurring" is meaningless.
Is naturally occurring cyanide, less dangerous than synthetic cyanide?

That's not why I eat organic food, but you are welcome to your assumptions. If I bite an apple, peach, carrot (with skin), or pear that is non-organic, my throat begins to swell up. My doctors tried telling me that this was a food allergy (which is true in many cases). I got allergy testing and it came up negative for all these things. I always had to skin my fruit, until I tried eating organic fruit with the peel.

There is a difference. If you're relying on studies alone to make that determination for you instead of paying attention to what your body is telling you, then you are not getting the full picture. But maybe your body is not as sensitive as mine and can deal with the various chemicals in food.

You have no idea what chemicals were causing this.
A lot of times our brain tricks our bodies into thinking something is wrong, when it isn't.

All these do is reveal bad practices in certain organic farming companies. Not all of them are subject to this. Also, to be fair, I am currently living in western Canada where admittedly the organic food is better. California is not too bad though.

If you don't believe in organics then that's your business... but calling me stupid for listening to my own body is sheer presumptive arrogance on your part.

No, it's not arrogance, it science.
The organic food movement is largely bound in idiocy.
Some of it is legit, but a lot of it, is just plain out stupidity.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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That's all true, but some people are willing to pay the premium price for the label, someone will supply it.

Certainly not saying that regular farming should be illegal...just that if someone's gonna buy it, someone's gonna sell it.

No doubt.

I considered selling "organic" stuff, just to make a premium off of ignorant people.
Not sure I do that, personal ethics are important to me.
 

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I agree.
But this is about organic stuff.

A lot of it is just consumer ignorance.

Well even if that information got out there, I don't think it would make that much of a difference.

To make it personal for a moment, I don't like high fructose corn syrup. Now I hear all this stuff about how HFCS is just like sugar and it's really okay and all that stuff. But I don't care even if it's true. I'd rather have products sweetened with sugar or not consume those products at all. It's my choice.

And we can even go the other way with it too. For years we have put warning labels on cigarette packs and have forced tobacco companies to fund programs to help people quit using the products they put out. But people continue to use tobacco, and people will keep starting to use tobacco too.

And you're right in that those hybrid crops are what feed the majority of the world's population, as well as the use of pesticides. I've worked in the agricultural industry so I know how it works and the expenses involved and how necessary it is to get a crop as bountiful as possible.

But as long as people can afford to want something else, there's going to be a supplier for that something else. Which is usually the case anyways.

So, and not to be disrespectful or anything, but I don't see the point on continuing to argue this particular point, especially if most of the people in the thread do agree on this point, which seems to be the case.

The point of contention seems to be whether or not paying for organic food is stupid. Which, to me, seems like a really ****ing silly thing to argue about.

But, hey, we all need our vents, so have at it gents. :)
 

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Nope.
Documentaries don't have the solid scientific foundation behind them, like science research papers.

Well so far you're not doing very well with the latter.

"Naturally occurring" is meaningless.
Is naturally occurring cyanide, less dangerous than synthetic cyanide?

Are we eating cyanide? No? Then why make such a flawed comparison?

You have no idea what chemicals were causing this.
A lot of times our brain tricks our bodies into thinking something is wrong, when it isn't.

Oh right, the old "mind over matter" placebo effect routine. That's what people say when they are too lazy to find the real reason. I didn't give two ****s about organic food before I had the bad reactions. You can give me a non-organic apple that comes from anywhere. If it has been sprayed with pesticide I will have the same reaction. No, I don't have a scientific laboratory working on my personal behalf to give you a chemical analysis, but don't ****ing tell me that it's all in my head. If I have no idea, then you certainly don't.

No, it's not arrogance, it science.
The organic food movement is largely bound in idiocy.
Some of it is legit, but a lot of it, is just plain out stupidity.

I'm not part of a movement. I just know what I like to eat and what doesn't cause my body to react, so stop white washing me like I'm part of some organic hippy cult. Every industry has pros and cons, gimmicks and realities. Like I mentioned before, if you do your research you'll know what's real and what's not.

Now you're backtracking and saying that some of it is legit, whereas before you said it's a gimmick. So are you actually acknowledging now that with consumer discernment, it's possible to get a better organic product? Which is - perhaps - what I said I do in the first place?

Maybe you should ask more questions instead of assuming you have all the answers. Just because something says "organic" on it does not mean I buy it or automatically think it's better. Is that sinking in yet? Or are you going to keep projecting your issues with organic food at me?
 

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That's not why I eat organic food, but you are welcome to your assumptions. If I bite an apple, peach, carrot (with skin), or pear that is non-organic, my throat begins to swell up. My doctors tried telling me that this was a food allergy (which is true in many cases). I got allergy testing and it came up negative for all these things. I always had to skin my fruit, until I tried eating organic fruit with the peel.
·
·
·​
If you don't believe in organics then that's your business... but calling me stupid for listening to my own body is sheer presumptive arrogance on your part.

You have no idea what chemicals were causing this.
A lot of times our brain tricks our bodies into thinking something is wrong, when it isn't.

Oh right, the old "mind over matter" placebo effect routine. That's what people say when they are too lazy to find the real reason. I didn't give two ****s about organic food before I had the bad reactions. You can give me a non-organic apple that comes from anywhere. If it has been sprayed with pesticide I will have the same reaction. No, I don't have a scientific laboratory working on my personal behalf to give you a chemical analysis, but don't ****ing tell me that it's all in my head. If I have no idea, then you certainly don't.

This seems to me like something that cries out for a properly-conducted double-blind test.

I bet that if Temporal was given examples of “organic” and “non-organic” fruits, without knowing which is which, I bet no correlation would be found between the claimed effect, and the “organic” or “non-organic” fruits.



A pet peeve of mine is the misuse of the word “organic”. All food is organic. There is no such thing as “non-organic” food, at least not for us humans. Our bodies are not capable of deriving nutrients from any inorganic sources. The distinction between “organic” and “non-organic” foods has nothing whatsoever to do with anything that the word “organic” actually means.
 
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When I see "organic" I pass it up personally. What that means to me is "Gonna cost more, and the benefit is suspect at best".

Organic to me is what I grow with my own two hands.
 

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This seems to me like something that cries out for a properly-conducted double-blind test.

I bet that if Temporal was given examples of “organic” and “non-organic” fruits, without knowing which is which, I bet no correlation would be found between the claimed effect, and the “organic” or “non-organic” fruits.

Such tests have already been done. I am a slow metaboliser of most xenobiotics, while others don't work on me at all. I can even tell you the specific enzyme pathway involved and how mine is one of a few dozen genetic variations that have so far been discovered in humans. This means that for someone like me, toxic chemicals linger in my body for longer than someone who has the normal pathway which means they can accumulate in my body tissues and have faster reactions. I can't even buy most pre-packaged food because I react to the additives, so most of my meals are made from scratch using simple ingredients - hence why my produce must be organic.

Not that any of this is really your business, but I thought I'd shed some light on a subject that you don't know much about.

A pet peeve of mine is the misuse of the word “organic”. All food is organic. There is no such thing as “non-organic” food, at least not for us humans. Our bodies are not capable of deriving nutrients from any inorganic sources. The distinction between “organic” and “non-organic” foods has nothing whatsoever to do with anything that the word “organic” actually means.

Now you're just being semantic. You know full well that THIS use of the term "organic" refers to products that don't contain toxic chemicals or industrial byproducts; or at least, that is how the puritains claim it should be.

I'm glad you brought up absorbability though. Just because food is absorbable does not mean that everything it is packaged with is. The more additives put into food, the harder your body has to work to purge the wastes vs. simply absorb the pure nutrition. You are correct in that your body cannot absorb the inorganic - so why are we putting so much of it in our food? Why are most products in supermarkets laden with high fructose corn syrup - which is certainly absorbable, but is a de facto poison when glucose is at those levels.
 

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When I see "organic" I pass it up personally. What that means to me is "Gonna cost more, and the benefit is suspect at best".

Organic to me is what I grow with my own two hands.

I love gardening! It's one of the things I miss most about being back home in the U.S. Urban living stinks for gardening.
 

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Now you're just being semantic. You know full well that THIS use of the term "organic" refers to products that don't contain toxic chemicals…

I wonder if there's any such thing as “organic” tobacco.

If tobacco is grown and processed according to “organic” methods, it would qualify as “organic”, would it not? And would you deny that this “organic” tobacco would be about as full of toxic chemicals as would be tobacco grown and processed according to the most modern methods?
 
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