LyricalReckoner said:Here's an idea -- A Contract for Immigrants. You sign it before you get to France. You agree that you've got work lined up, and that you won't become a burden.
You've got 5 years to decide whether you want to become a citizen. There's a test you must pass, and it's given in French. You're asked about French and European history. You're quizzed on the form of government, on the rights and responsibilities of citizens. You're tested on your understanding of French culture: are you familiar with the great people and events?
France offers citizenship classes. You're an immigrant and you want to stay in France and you know there's this test coming up, so you go to citizenship class. It's up to France to give you what you need to become a citizen of France.
During those 5 years, you're on probation. You're not a citizen. If you mess up -- if you become a burden, if your kids keep getting in trouble with the law, if you're delinquent in paying your bills -- then France can just kiss you goodbye.
That would certainly change the equation.
IMO, jobs are the heart of the problem. As I understand it, most of the rioting population are 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants. The French have structured their society toward "living wage" and lifetime employment with the same result as everywhere else - high unemployment, particularly among the least qualified people. Last I heard, French unemployment was 10% overall with 30% among Muslims. In a western society, there is no dignity for a young male without a job - what does he have to offer a prospective bride, and how can he be a role model for his children if he is not gainfully employed?LyricalReckoner said:Here's an idea -- A Contract for Immigrants. You sign it before you get to France. You agree that you've got work lined up, and that you won't become a burden.
In light of these high unemployment figures then, France should re-examine its liberal immigration policies... especially in regards to immigrants who hail from former French colonies. Perhaps affirmative action programs (additional socialized largesse) are necessary to meld this generational underclass into mainstream French society. An inescapable fact remains though. French Muslims will learn the lesson that Afro-American rioters learned in Detroit, Watts, and South Central LA... it will take decades to rehabilitate the ugly scars they are now inflicting upon their own communities.Diogenes said:Last I heard, French unemployment was 10% overall with 30% among Muslims. In a western society, there is no dignity for a young male without a job - what does he have to offer a prospective bride, and how can he be a role model for his children if he is not gainfully employed?
The frustration boils over into a riot like this very easily at the smallest provocation. It has happened in this country, too (Detroit, Watts, South Central LA), and now it is the French turn.
Agreed. There also seems to be an element of inter-generational protest - in a Muslim neighborhood, who owned all the cars and buildings that were destroyed? At this point the riots don't seem to be inspired by Islam, but a population of frustrated young people is fertile ground for recruiting terrorists that are a threat to all of us.Tashah said:In light of these high unemployment figures then, France should re-examine its liberal immigration policies... especially in regards to immigrants who hail from former French colonies. Perhaps affirmative action programs (additional socialized largesse) are necessary to meld this generational underclass into mainstream French society. An inescapable fact remains though. French Muslims will learn the lesson that Afro-American rioters learned in Detroit, Watts, and South Central LA... it will take decades to rehabilitate the ugly scars they are now inflicting upon their own communities.
LyricalReckoner said:Here's an idea -- A Contract for Immigrants. You sign it before you get to France. You agree that you've got work lined up, and that you won't become a burden.
You've got 5 years to decide whether you want to become a citizen. There's a test you must pass, and it's given in French. You're asked about French and European history. You're quizzed on the form of government, on the rights and responsibilities of citizens. You're tested on your understanding of French culture: are you familiar with the great people and events?
France offers citizenship classes. You're an immigrant and you want to stay in France and you know there's this test coming up, so you go to citizenship class. It's up to France to give you what you need to become a citizen of France.
During those 5 years, you're on probation. You're not a citizen. If you mess up -- if you become a burden, if your kids keep getting in trouble with the law, if you're delinquent in paying your bills -- then France can just kiss you goodbye.
That would certainly change the equation.
jallman said::applaud That was a near flawless summation of how it should be. I believe your approach would serve all countries dealing with immigration problems, including the US.
Diogenes said:IMO, jobs are the heart of the problem. As I understand it, most of the rioting population are 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants. The French have structured their society toward "living wage" and lifetime employment with the same result as everywhere else - high unemployment, particularly among the least qualified people. Last I heard, French unemployment was 10% overall with 30% among Muslims. In a western society, there is no dignity for a young male without a job - what does he have to offer a prospective bride, and how can he be a role model for his children if he is not gainfully employed?
The frustration boils over into a riot like this very easily at the smallest provocation. It has happened in this country, too (Detroit, Watts, South Central LA), and now it is the French turn.
Deegan said:It would appear that France has ignored their problem as long as they could, but are still not willing address the situation. That would be the large number of Muslims that have come to the country, yet have not been able to adjust to the French way of life, or the French have not be able to include their new immigrants.
"Riots have now continued for eight days in and around Paris. Thursday night, November 3, Muslim rioters burned 315 cars. In the previous week, they torched 177 vehicles and burned numerous businesses, a post office, and two schools. They have rampaged through twenty towns and shot at police and firemen. In an episode that summed up the failure of France’s efforts to create a domestic, domesticated Islam, when moderate Muslim leader Dalil Boubakeur, head of the Paris mosque, tried to restore calm, his car was pelted with stones and he had to rush away.
The riots began on October 27 when two Muslim teenagers ran from police who were checking identification papers — why they ran is as yet unclear. The police did not chase them, but evidently the teenagers thought they were being chased; they eventually hid in an electrical power sub-station, where they accidentally electrocuted themselves. That night young Muslims took to the streets for the first time, throwing rocks and bottles at police, burning cars, and vandalizing property. The next day rioters, throwing rocks, bottles, and Molotov cocktails, injured twenty-three police officers in the Paris suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois. The violence continued over the next few days: more destroyed vehicles and injured police officers. Then on Sunday, October 30, a tear gas shell hit a mosque, further enraging local Muslims; French Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy stated somewhat cryptically, “I am, of course, available to the imam of the Clichy mosque to let him have all the details in order to understand how and why a tear gas bomb was sent into this mosque.” Since then the riots have continued unabated, defying appeals for calm from French President Jacques Chirac and others. The crisis now threatens to swamp the French government."
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20071
Red_Dave said:du have any evidence that its muslims in particular that are starting the riots?
Red_Dave said:du have any evidence that its muslims in particular that are starting the riots?
Calm2Chaos said:Other then the news clips and the numerous news stories? What eveidence are you talking about a signed confession and DNA testing to prove identity?
M14 Shooter said:Fool! Dont you get it?!?!
This is all Bush's fault!!!
Well, a good question.Red_Dave said:du have any evidence that its muslims in particular that are starting the riots?
epr64 said:Well, a good question.
In fact, yes. But the riots have nothing to do with it as such. These riots do not have a religious basis, on most cases. The people living there are whites, blacks, north africans.. whatever. They are united by their lack of revenue, not their "origin"
The fact is that, for 30 years, the "banlieues" have been totally abandonned. They are "parks" for people without the revenue needed for living in the city. They are some 30 minutes from the center of the cities, usually with busses stopping deserving the place after 9PM.
There is a racist problem in France, that explains why most people in the cités are muslims. If you have the wrong name and the wrong address, don't expect getting a job. BUT..
Expect being (violently, usually) controlled by the cops 10 times a day
Expect being snobbed everywhere you go (disco's, cinemas, etc..)
Expect that, as noone find a job, the criminality expands.. and you're either a criminal or a victim.
The killed kids that started the riots flew the cops because they had no papers on them, and didn't want their father to come pick them at the police station as usual. It was the last day of the rammadan, and they knew it wouldn't be a good thing.
But what happens now is a political crisis. It was started by Sarkozy to gain votes through a tough police action (he used unacceptable words, etc.. The best proof? Go to google.fr, and check "banlieue".. The commercial link on the right was bought by Sarkozy's party, the UMP. If that's not the most disgusting thing I ever saw..).
It's a political crisis because, whatever the vote, left or right, the "cités" are completely forgotten.
So now, we have people rioting without any revendication. They were never heard, and they know they won't be heard now. Why would they stop?
So... Kill them all? Will that solve the problem? Nope. This will take time to solve, because the people of the cités will not accept promises.. and effective actions will take time. They were forgotten for way too long.
I saw people proposing deportations.. Hey guys. Get real.. Those kids are 2nd, 3rd and (mainly) 4th generation. Where do you want to deport them? Iceland?
This is a very serious crisis, and the solution doesn't exist.
Just my 0.02€
Y
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