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Will Paris burn?

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Deegan

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It would appear that France has ignored their problem as long as they could, but are still not willing address the situation. That would be the large number of Muslims that have come to the country, yet have not been able to adjust to the French way of life, or the French have not be able to include their new immigrants.

"Riots have now continued for eight days in and around Paris. Thursday night, November 3, Muslim rioters burned 315 cars. In the previous week, they torched 177 vehicles and burned numerous businesses, a post office, and two schools. They have rampaged through twenty towns and shot at police and firemen. In an episode that summed up the failure of France’s efforts to create a domestic, domesticated Islam, when moderate Muslim leader Dalil Boubakeur, head of the Paris mosque, tried to restore calm, his car was pelted with stones and he had to rush away.

The riots began on October 27 when two Muslim teenagers ran from police who were checking identification papers — why they ran is as yet unclear. The police did not chase them, but evidently the teenagers thought they were being chased; they eventually hid in an electrical power sub-station, where they accidentally electrocuted themselves. That night young Muslims took to the streets for the first time, throwing rocks and bottles at police, burning cars, and vandalizing property. The next day rioters, throwing rocks, bottles, and Molotov cocktails, injured twenty-three police officers in the Paris suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois. The violence continued over the next few days: more destroyed vehicles and injured police officers. Then on Sunday, October 30, a tear gas shell hit a mosque, further enraging local Muslims; French Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy stated somewhat cryptically, “I am, of course, available to the imam of the Clichy mosque to let him have all the details in order to understand how and why a tear gas bomb was sent into this mosque.” Since then the riots have continued unabated, defying appeals for calm from French President Jacques Chirac and others. The crisis now threatens to swamp the French government."

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20071
 

LyricalReckoner

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Here's an idea -- A Contract for Immigrants. You sign it before you get to France. You agree that you've got work lined up, and that you won't become a burden.

You've got 5 years to decide whether you want to become a citizen. There's a test you must pass, and it's given in French. You're asked about French and European history. You're quizzed on the form of government, on the rights and responsibilities of citizens. You're tested on your understanding of French culture: are you familiar with the great people and events?

France offers citizenship classes. You're an immigrant and you want to stay in France and you know there's this test coming up, so you go to citizenship class. It's up to France to give you what you need to become a citizen of France.

During those 5 years, you're on probation. You're not a citizen. If you mess up -- if you become a burden, if your kids keep getting in trouble with the law, if you're delinquent in paying your bills -- then France can just kiss you goodbye.

That would certainly change the equation.
 

jallman

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LyricalReckoner said:
Here's an idea -- A Contract for Immigrants. You sign it before you get to France. You agree that you've got work lined up, and that you won't become a burden.

You've got 5 years to decide whether you want to become a citizen. There's a test you must pass, and it's given in French. You're asked about French and European history. You're quizzed on the form of government, on the rights and responsibilities of citizens. You're tested on your understanding of French culture: are you familiar with the great people and events?

France offers citizenship classes. You're an immigrant and you want to stay in France and you know there's this test coming up, so you go to citizenship class. It's up to France to give you what you need to become a citizen of France.

During those 5 years, you're on probation. You're not a citizen. If you mess up -- if you become a burden, if your kids keep getting in trouble with the law, if you're delinquent in paying your bills -- then France can just kiss you goodbye.

That would certainly change the equation.
:applaud That was a near flawless summation of how it should be. I believe your approach would serve all countries dealing with immigration problems, including the US.
 

Tashah

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Welcome to reality Mr. Chirac. You made your bed... now sleep in it.



 

Diogenes

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LyricalReckoner said:
Here's an idea -- A Contract for Immigrants. You sign it before you get to France. You agree that you've got work lined up, and that you won't become a burden.
IMO, jobs are the heart of the problem. As I understand it, most of the rioting population are 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants. The French have structured their society toward "living wage" and lifetime employment with the same result as everywhere else - high unemployment, particularly among the least qualified people. Last I heard, French unemployment was 10% overall with 30% among Muslims. In a western society, there is no dignity for a young male without a job - what does he have to offer a prospective bride, and how can he be a role model for his children if he is not gainfully employed?

The frustration boils over into a riot like this very easily at the smallest provocation. It has happened in this country, too (Detroit, Watts, South Central LA), and now it is the French turn.
 

Tashah

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Diogenes said:
Last I heard, French unemployment was 10% overall with 30% among Muslims. In a western society, there is no dignity for a young male without a job - what does he have to offer a prospective bride, and how can he be a role model for his children if he is not gainfully employed?

The frustration boils over into a riot like this very easily at the smallest provocation. It has happened in this country, too (Detroit, Watts, South Central LA), and now it is the French turn.
In light of these high unemployment figures then, France should re-examine its liberal immigration policies... especially in regards to immigrants who hail from former French colonies. Perhaps affirmative action programs (additional socialized largesse) are necessary to meld this generational underclass into mainstream French society. An inescapable fact remains though. French Muslims will learn the lesson that Afro-American rioters learned in Detroit, Watts, and South Central LA... it will take decades to rehabilitate the ugly scars they are now inflicting upon their own communities.



 

Diogenes

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Tashah said:
In light of these high unemployment figures then, France should re-examine its liberal immigration policies... especially in regards to immigrants who hail from former French colonies. Perhaps affirmative action programs (additional socialized largesse) are necessary to meld this generational underclass into mainstream French society. An inescapable fact remains though. French Muslims will learn the lesson that Afro-American rioters learned in Detroit, Watts, and South Central LA... it will take decades to rehabilitate the ugly scars they are now inflicting upon their own communities.
Agreed. There also seems to be an element of inter-generational protest - in a Muslim neighborhood, who owned all the cars and buildings that were destroyed? At this point the riots don't seem to be inspired by Islam, but a population of frustrated young people is fertile ground for recruiting terrorists that are a threat to all of us.
 

RightinNYC

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LyricalReckoner said:
Here's an idea -- A Contract for Immigrants. You sign it before you get to France. You agree that you've got work lined up, and that you won't become a burden.

You've got 5 years to decide whether you want to become a citizen. There's a test you must pass, and it's given in French. You're asked about French and European history. You're quizzed on the form of government, on the rights and responsibilities of citizens. You're tested on your understanding of French culture: are you familiar with the great people and events?

France offers citizenship classes. You're an immigrant and you want to stay in France and you know there's this test coming up, so you go to citizenship class. It's up to France to give you what you need to become a citizen of France.

During those 5 years, you're on probation. You're not a citizen. If you mess up -- if you become a burden, if your kids keep getting in trouble with the law, if you're delinquent in paying your bills -- then France can just kiss you goodbye.

That would certainly change the equation.

The problem with this?

Europe has the same number of jobs as it did 40 years ago. There has been no job growth for 4 decades. Luckily for them, their populations are starting to decline...
 

Deegan

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Well, the riots have claimed their first life, I wonder what they(France) are willing to do to stop this? Will they deport the known trouble makers, or will they do nothing more then put a band-aid on this problem?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051107...EDgelIB;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

"GRIGNY, France (Reuters) - Rioters shot at police and torched more than 1,400 cars in the worst violence since unrest erupted in France's poor suburbs 11 days ago, and a man beaten by a youth became the first fatality on Monday.

The rioters threw firebombs at two churches and attacked three schools on Sunday night, police said, hours after President Jacques Chirac vowed to defeat the troublemakers.

The new violence prompted warnings that the unrest which began on October 27 could damage investment and tourism in France and fueled calls for the conservative government to take tougher action, including sending the army into riot-hit areas"
 

Calm2Chaos

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jallman said:
:applaud That was a near flawless summation of how it should be. I believe your approach would serve all countries dealing with immigration problems, including the US.

I have had this conversation on this very board. And according to a large contingent you should not require immigrants to have a test of any sort. They shouldn't have to know anything and they don't need to learn the language. If they break the law let em go so they can try again. If your not allowed to expect something from your immigrants then lets stop immigration
 

Calm2Chaos

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Diogenes said:
IMO, jobs are the heart of the problem. As I understand it, most of the rioting population are 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants. The French have structured their society toward "living wage" and lifetime employment with the same result as everywhere else - high unemployment, particularly among the least qualified people. Last I heard, French unemployment was 10% overall with 30% among Muslims. In a western society, there is no dignity for a young male without a job - what does he have to offer a prospective bride, and how can he be a role model for his children if he is not gainfully employed?

The frustration boils over into a riot like this very easily at the smallest provocation. It has happened in this country, too (Detroit, Watts, South Central LA), and now it is the French turn.

The difference being that in all those places it was Americans rioting. Not immigrants leaving a 20 mile path of destruction. Take everyone of them found to be part of the riot and deport them.... Course as I have said in another thread. If this keeps up they just might surrender to the rioters
 

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Deegan said:
It would appear that France has ignored their problem as long as they could, but are still not willing address the situation. That would be the large number of Muslims that have come to the country, yet have not been able to adjust to the French way of life, or the French have not be able to include their new immigrants.

"Riots have now continued for eight days in and around Paris. Thursday night, November 3, Muslim rioters burned 315 cars. In the previous week, they torched 177 vehicles and burned numerous businesses, a post office, and two schools. They have rampaged through twenty towns and shot at police and firemen. In an episode that summed up the failure of France’s efforts to create a domestic, domesticated Islam, when moderate Muslim leader Dalil Boubakeur, head of the Paris mosque, tried to restore calm, his car was pelted with stones and he had to rush away.

The riots began on October 27 when two Muslim teenagers ran from police who were checking identification papers — why they ran is as yet unclear. The police did not chase them, but evidently the teenagers thought they were being chased; they eventually hid in an electrical power sub-station, where they accidentally electrocuted themselves. That night young Muslims took to the streets for the first time, throwing rocks and bottles at police, burning cars, and vandalizing property. The next day rioters, throwing rocks, bottles, and Molotov cocktails, injured twenty-three police officers in the Paris suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois. The violence continued over the next few days: more destroyed vehicles and injured police officers. Then on Sunday, October 30, a tear gas shell hit a mosque, further enraging local Muslims; French Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy stated somewhat cryptically, “I am, of course, available to the imam of the Clichy mosque to let him have all the details in order to understand how and why a tear gas bomb was sent into this mosque.” Since then the riots have continued unabated, defying appeals for calm from French President Jacques Chirac and others. The crisis now threatens to swamp the French government."

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20071
du have any evidence that its muslims in particular that are starting the riots?
 

Deegan

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Red_Dave said:
du have any evidence that its muslims in particular that are starting the riots?
Well that is the official word, and as a result, one Muslim org. has issued a fatwa against the violence, so it would appear so. It's all in the link I provided, you may want to read that.
 

Calm2Chaos

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Red_Dave said:
du have any evidence that its muslims in particular that are starting the riots?
Other then the news clips and the numerous news stories? What eveidence are you talking about a signed confession and DNA testing to prove identity?
 

M14 Shooter

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Calm2Chaos said:
Other then the news clips and the numerous news stories? What eveidence are you talking about a signed confession and DNA testing to prove identity?
Fool! Dont you get it?!?!
This is all Bush's fault!!!
 

Calm2Chaos

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M14 Shooter said:
Fool! Dont you get it?!?!
This is all Bush's fault!!!

If he can cause hurricanes this is definetly his fault...LOL
 

epr64

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Red_Dave said:
du have any evidence that its muslims in particular that are starting the riots?
Well, a good question.
In fact, yes. But the riots have nothing to do with it as such. These riots do not have a religious basis, on most cases. The people living there are whites, blacks, north africans.. whatever. They are united by their lack of revenue, not their "origin"
The fact is that, for 30 years, the "banlieues" have been totally abandonned. They are "parks" for people without the revenue needed for living in the city. They are some 30 minutes from the center of the cities, usually with busses stopping deserving the place after 9PM.
There is a racist problem in France, that explains why most people in the cités are muslims. If you have the wrong name and the wrong address, don't expect getting a job. BUT..

Expect being (violently, usually) controlled by the cops 10 times a day
Expect being snobbed everywhere you go (disco's, cinemas, etc..)
Expect that, as noone find a job, the criminality expands.. and you're either a criminal or a victim.

The killed kids that started the riots flew the cops because they had no papers on them, and didn't want their father to come pick them at the police station as usual. It was the last day of the rammadan, and they knew it wouldn't be a good thing.

But what happens now is a political crisis. It was started by Sarkozy to gain votes through a tough police action (he used unacceptable words, etc.. The best proof? Go to google.fr, and check "banlieue".. The commercial link on the right was bought by Sarkozy's party, the UMP. If that's not the most disgusting thing I ever saw..).
It's a political crisis because, whatever the vote, left or right, the "cités" are completely forgotten.

So now, we have people rioting without any revendication. They were never heard, and they know they won't be heard now. Why would they stop?

So... Kill them all? Will that solve the problem? Nope. This will take time to solve, because the people of the cités will not accept promises.. and effective actions will take time. They were forgotten for way too long.

I saw people proposing deportations.. Hey guys. Get real.. Those kids are 2nd, 3rd and (mainly) 4th generation. Where do you want to deport them? Iceland?

This is a very serious crisis, and the solution doesn't exist.

Just my 0.02€
Y
 

VTA

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epr64 said:
Well, a good question.
In fact, yes. But the riots have nothing to do with it as such. These riots do not have a religious basis, on most cases. The people living there are whites, blacks, north africans.. whatever. They are united by their lack of revenue, not their "origin"
The fact is that, for 30 years, the "banlieues" have been totally abandonned. They are "parks" for people without the revenue needed for living in the city. They are some 30 minutes from the center of the cities, usually with busses stopping deserving the place after 9PM.
There is a racist problem in France, that explains why most people in the cités are muslims. If you have the wrong name and the wrong address, don't expect getting a job. BUT..

Expect being (violently, usually) controlled by the cops 10 times a day
Expect being snobbed everywhere you go (disco's, cinemas, etc..)
Expect that, as noone find a job, the criminality expands.. and you're either a criminal or a victim.

The killed kids that started the riots flew the cops because they had no papers on them, and didn't want their father to come pick them at the police station as usual. It was the last day of the rammadan, and they knew it wouldn't be a good thing.

But what happens now is a political crisis. It was started by Sarkozy to gain votes through a tough police action (he used unacceptable words, etc.. The best proof? Go to google.fr, and check "banlieue".. The commercial link on the right was bought by Sarkozy's party, the UMP. If that's not the most disgusting thing I ever saw..).
It's a political crisis because, whatever the vote, left or right, the "cités" are completely forgotten.

So now, we have people rioting without any revendication. They were never heard, and they know they won't be heard now. Why would they stop?

So... Kill them all? Will that solve the problem? Nope. This will take time to solve, because the people of the cités will not accept promises.. and effective actions will take time. They were forgotten for way too long.

I saw people proposing deportations.. Hey guys. Get real.. Those kids are 2nd, 3rd and (mainly) 4th generation. Where do you want to deport them? Iceland?

This is a very serious crisis, and the solution doesn't exist.

Just my 0.02€
Y
Hello epr64,
I've been having a conversation with my wife's cousin who lives in France and he has beeen telling me the same i.e. Social crisis, not Cultural, though it is Muslims rioting. Others speculating that the others (as described as 'a handful') are joining only in order to stay within the rioters good graces to avoid being victimized.

All that aside, I'd like to ask if are you in France? I'd like to get more perspective from those who are actually there, if so.
 

Deegan

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Wow, Chirac showed those bastards, he instituted a curfew........I bet these rioters are scared out of their boots, lol, I guess Paris might burn after all.:shock:
 

Stu Ghatze

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The France "insurgency", ..yep!

Well well well, ...How is it that the media has NOT referred to the shooting of police, the burning, the assault, & willful destruction of anything non-muslim not regarded as a "muslim" insurgency??

C-mon media, please explain! :smile:
 
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