Why won't anyone else take the lead??

[Maximus Zeebra]

Don't demand too much of him, he is an American. Probably he tried his best to formulate these sentences, but he had to manage three sentences in one post here :mrgreen:

Ahh, sure, he tried to spell my nick as well but had to shorten it down because it was too complicated?:roll:

 

[Volker]

Ahh, sure, he tried to spell my nick as well but had to shorten it down because it was too complicated?:roll:

He was still running in basement mode, I guess.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

He was still running in basement mode, I guess.

I suppose this thread will be moved to the basement soon as well since there are so many "intelligent conservative Americans" debating in it.

 

[cherokee]

You're really working off a handicap here... You're trying to tell American citizens how it is in America from such a vantage point of... Western Europe?

Anyone in America considering military duty knows what the Peace Corp is and the American military is completely voluntary. No one is forced to go and there are more than enough affirmative action programs for anyone to get a good education. The choices are all made plain and evident. Stop watching movies for anything other than entertainment; they only tell a skewed tale based on the writers bias.

That’s a good post VTA but I don’t expect you to get an answer from Max.


Come on Maximus Zeebra answer the post....

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

That’s a good post VTA but I don’t expect you to get an answer from Max.


Come on Maximus Zeebra answer the post....

Which post is that? I dont even find it between your and other conservatives intelligent posts here in the case against francaisforever.

 

[Volker]

I suppose this thread will be moved to the basement soon as well since there are so many "intelligent conservative Americans" debating in it.

We still can avoid it, the level is not really basement-like so far.

 

[Volker]

Which post is that? I dont even find it between your and other conservatives intelligent posts here in the case against francaisforever.

Just click on this blue arrow in the quote, it links you directly to the post.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

You're really working off a handicap here... You're trying to tell American citizens how it is in America from such a vantage point of... Western Europe?

Anyone in America considering military duty knows what the Peace Corp is and the American military is completely voluntary. No one is forced to go and there are more than enough affirmative action programs for anyone to get a good education. The choices are all made plain and evident. Stop watching movies for anything other than entertainment; they only tell a skewed tale based on the writers bias.

I am trying to tell about America from a different standpoint than the American one yes, and in my particular case as your friend, a western European standpoint.
I like European and American values, but have had the dissatisfaction of seeing American ethics sink to a record low.

The military at first eyepoint seem completely volunteer, but looking away from that, seeing who the recruiters targets and who actually joins the military, it is directed towards certain groups, which could be conceived as non-volunteer since they have NO OTHER CHOICE than to accept in their dire situations.

I am not basing my opinions on movies, I am basing them on the facts that the military demographics is quite different than that of the US population. One huge example is that there are almost no women.
Its volunteer only in the way that you dont HAVE to go, UNLESS you are poor or need an education that you could not afford somewhere else.

However, I respect everyone who has been in the military and are willing to defend their country, there is nothing more honorable than that, especially not politics, and how those people end up dead.

 

[WI Crippler]

The military at first eyepoint seem completely volunteer, but looking away from that, seeing who the recruiters targets and who actually joins the military, it is directed towards certain groups, which could be conceived as non-volunteer since they have NO OTHER CHOICE than to accept in their dire situations.

I have always hated this notion that our military recruiters are only recruiting poor people, who somehow have no choice but to join. Thats BS. If you are in Western Europe, how do you know what our recruiters are doing?? Who is telling you this?? Is it a media outlet?? A Michael Moore movie?? How about visiting a US military recruting substation for a week, and work the hours these guys do. They have very hard goals to meet, and they work hard to meet them. They scour entire areas for recruits. If they happen to have an area where they are successful, then thats where they fish. And also, why shouldn't our military offer the benefits that they do?? If we are going to ask people to volunteer to make the ultimate sacrifice, we should give them all the support we can. Maybe its just the way the Marine Corps recruiters work, but I was dirt poor, and they never tried to sell me on any kind of monetary, or benefits. They sold me on the intagibiles of being a Marine.

I am not basing my opinions on movies, I am basing them on the facts that the military demographics is quite different than that of the US population. One huge example is that there are almost no women.
Its volunteer only in the way that you dont HAVE to go, UNLESS you are poor or need an education that you could not afford somewhere else.

The poor don't have to do anything, and the base pay of an e-1 through e-3 isn't exactly through the roof. They could make more working in a factory. And how is the demographic of the US military different than our population? We got people from every race, creed, and every financial background in the military. I might say that our military is the most ethnically diverse military the world has ever seen, and we are going to be criticised for it?? Please :roll:
As far as women go, in the Marine Corps there aren't a whole lot of women compared to their male counter parts, but in the other services the number is raised quite a bit. I fondly remember going to an Air Force base and hanging out at the E-Club on their base and being amazed at how many females there were.

 

[Flea]

Here, let me explain this to you Maximus and Volker. Intelligent people and foolish people transcend nations...oh, why bother. You are unable to understand. :roll:

 

[Flea]

Sure, the military is not a perfect cross section of the USA, so what? It is really a good representative though.

The Military might be better suited for or targeted at lower income minorities, so what?

What you don't get Maximus, is that it is Irrelevant WHO volunteers for the US Military. It is that THEY DID VOLUNTEER. It is also about the fact that ANY person CAN VOLUNTEER that wants to. That is why really smart people VOLUNTEER to go to West Point and the Naval Academy.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

I have always hated this notion that our military recruiters are only recruiting poor people, who somehow have no choice but to join. Thats BS. If you are in Western Europe, how do you know what our recruiters are doing?? Who is telling you this?? Is it a media outlet?? A Michael Moore movie?? How about visiting a US military recruting substation for a week, and work the hours these guys do. They have very hard goals to meet, and they work hard to meet them. They scour entire areas for recruits. If they happen to have an area where they are successful, then thats where they fish. And also, why shouldn't our military offer the benefits that they do?? If we are going to ask people to volunteer to make the ultimate sacrifice, we should give them all the support we can. Maybe its just the way the Marine Corps recruiters work, but I was dirt poor, and they never tried to sell me on any kind of monetary, or benefits. They sold me on the intagibiles of being a Marine.

I got it from a variety of sources. Everything from the media, to a Michael Moore movie to internet resources. I cannot send you video unfortunately, nor do I have those available, but I can give you some links?

US military recruitment crisis deepens
US lowers standards in army numbers crisis | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited
US military recruiters target rural and depressed areas
Pentagon Targets Latinos and Mexicans to Man the Front Lines in War on Terror
Democracy Now! | A New Poverty Draft: Military Contractors Target Latin America For New Recruits
Scoop: Youth Warned About US Military Recruiters Methods
Out of Jail, Into the Army « CounterRecruiter.net

Some links about how the US recruit and what groups they recruit, it even seems they are starting to recruit criminals now, waiving their sentances if they join the military.

The poor don't have to do anything, and the base pay of an e-1 through e-3 isn't exactly through the roof. They could make more working in a factory. And how is the demographic of the US military different than our population? We got people from every race, creed, and every financial background in the military. I might say that our military is the most ethnically diverse military the world has ever seen, and we are going to be criticised for it?? Please :roll:
As far as women go, in the Marine Corps there aren't a whole lot of women compared to their male counter parts, but in the other services the number is raised quite a bit. I fondly remember going to an Air Force base and hanging out at the E-Club on their base and being amazed at how many females there were.

I didn't say the pay was better, but what about the unemployed rural guy with no education, is the military not an opportunity for him? Is he not being targeted for military service by US recruiters?
I am not debating if its ethnically diverse or not, I know it is, even to a degree where the % of blacks in the military was far above the US population % and still is higher than the general population.

The women was just to demonstrate that the demographics of the army and the general population is quite different.

 

[cherokee]

I was exposed to the Marines in Jr. High School.
Our bus was used to pick up a hand full of students for a local High School.

One day I saw an older kid on our bus wearing his uniform. So I asked him about it. He told me everything he could about the Marines JR ROTC and the Marines. Well needless to say I was hooked!

He wasn’t a recruiter in any way. He didn’t even try to talk me into joining the Jr ROTC.
He told me of the Marine Corps values and the pride of one day serving my country. That’s why I joined.
Three years later when I started High School the first thing I did was join the JR ROTC.

As WI Crippler has said our military has people from ALL WALKS OF LIFE.
From High School to people with PhD’s


Honor, Courage, Commitment.

Semper Fi!

 

[cherokee]

I got it from a variety of sources. Everything from the media, to a Michael Moore movie to internet resources. I cannot send you video unfortunately, nor do I have those available, but I can give you some links?

US military recruitment crisis deepens
US lowers standards in army numbers crisis | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited
US military recruiters target rural and depressed areas
Pentagon Targets Latinos and Mexicans to Man the Front Lines in War on Terror
Democracy Now! | A New Poverty Draft: Military Contractors Target Latin America For New Recruits
Scoop: Youth Warned About US Military Recruiters Methods
Out of Jail, Into the Army « CounterRecruiter.net

Some links about how the US recruit and what groups they recruit, it even seems they are starting to recruit criminals now, waiving their sentances if they join the military.



I didn't say the pay was better, but what about the unemployed rural guy with no education, is the military not an opportunity for him? Is he not being targeted for military service by US recruiters?
I am not debating if its ethnically diverse or not, I know it is, even to a degree where the % of blacks in the military was far above the US population % and still is higher than the general population.

The women was just to demonstrate that the demographics of the army and the general population is quite different.

As far as the criminals in the military, It all depends on what they were charged with. Some things can be Waived, some cant.
If you want to know why people join don’t bother reading a bunch of bullshit on the web Just ask them! And remember its still up to the person to join or not.

One last thing when I joined you had to have at least a GED. I think I remember the Army only needing the person to finish the 9th grade but you also had so much time while in service to obtain your GED or something like that.

 

[Gardener]

Here, let me explain this to you Maximus and Volker. Intelligent people and foolish people transcend nations...oh, why bother. You are unable to understand. :roll:

Unable or unwilling? Volker strikes me as having average intelligence. He may not write with much fluidity, but since English is his third language, one should not expect more. I have seen less of M.Z., and while his writing is below standard, if English is not his native language then one must take this into account. He strikes me as average as well.

IMO, both are unwilling to understand rather than unable.

 

[WI Crippler]

I got it from a variety of sources. Everything from the media, to a Michael Moore movie to internet resources. I cannot send you video unfortunately, nor do I have those available, but I can give you some links?

US military recruitment crisis deepens
US lowers standards in army numbers crisis | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited
US military recruiters target rural and depressed areas
Pentagon Targets Latinos and Mexicans to Man the Front Lines in War on Terror
Democracy Now! | A New Poverty Draft: Military Contractors Target Latin America For New Recruits
Scoop: Youth Warned About US Military Recruiters Methods
Out of Jail, Into the Army « CounterRecruiter.net

World Socialist Websites?? Those are always going to paint you a rosy picture of America. Sounds propogandist to me, but if thats where you are getting your info from, rather than the true sources like former military members, the recruiters themselves or DoD sites, then I can see why you think the things you do about America.

I didn't say the pay was better, but what about the unemployed rural guy with no education, is the military not an opportunity for him? Is he not being targeted for military service by US recruiters?
I am not debating if its ethnically diverse or not, I know it is, even to a degree where the % of blacks in the military was far above the US population % and still is higher than the general population.

The women was just to demonstrate that the demographics of the army and the general population is quite different.

Somebody who does not have a High school diploma or a GED, cannot join the military. Hell I had a buddy of mine who was going to join the Marines, but he failed High school and got a GED instead, and our recruiter said "No way, we aren't going to take you". He did get into the Navy instead, but he had to wait because they only had so many waivers for GEDs to get in.

And there are plenty of jobs in the world where the precentage of women is lower than men. Usually the physically dangerous jobs are traditionally filled with males. Firefighting, police, construction, deep sea fishing, etc... are all dominated by males and therefore not representative of our cultures demograpihcs either. There is a reason for this. Mens lives are more expendable than womens, its all about reproduction. lets say I have a country of 100 people, and it is 50 males and 50 females. If during the course of 1 year I have women equally involved in physically dangerous jobs where there is a chance for loss of life. Lets say we lose 25 men, and 25 females that year. now over the course of the next year we can only produce 25 new children at the most. If we send the men off to do all the dangerous jobs, we can lose 49 men, and still out populate the previous country(lucky guy )

 

[Flea]

Originally Posted by Gardener
Unable or unwilling? Volker strikes me as having average intelligence. He may not write with much fluidity, but since English is his third language, one should not expect more. I have seen less of M.Z., and while his writing is below standard, if English is not his native language then one must take this into account. He strikes me as average as well.

IMO, both are unwilling to understand rather than unable.

That was aimed more at Maximus. Volker is simply unwilling to get along IMO. Maximus is unable.

Maximus said that he was English and that English was is first language and then later contradicted himself saying that English was not his first language. That is the thing with that kid. He just makes stuff up and contradicts himself over and over, and he isn't even that clever about it.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Unable or unwilling? Volker strikes me as having average intelligence. He may not write with much fluidity, but since English is his third language, one should not expect more. I have seen less of M.Z., and while his writing is below standard, if English is not his native language then one must take this into account. He strikes me as average as well.

IMO, both are unwilling to understand rather than unable.

Its my fourth/fifth language, depending if I put French in front of English or not.

Average? How can you judge something like that from an internet forum?
Unwilling to understand what? That the US HAD to go to war in Iraq and lie about the reason to remove the REAL threat which is one man?

What am I unwilling to understand? That the US is a huge foreign policy failure?
Whoever think ANYTHING negative about the US or dont agree with them is OBVIOUSLY anti-American, stupid, blind or just unwilling to see the "REAL" truth, that America like Germany in 1940 had the "RIGHT" to change the world in their picture?

newsflash Americans, most of the world, except Europe, blindly hates your country, Europe just dislikes and look down on your naivness and failures.

 

[Flea]

Originally Posted by BodiSatva

From this...

Originally Posted by BodiSatva
we have an all volunteer army

Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra
Volunteer army my A.S.S.

To this...

Originally Posted by BodiSatva
we have an all volunteer army

Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra
I agree its volunteer

That is interesting INDEED! :lol:
THAT is what you are UNABLE to understand. Willingness has nothing to do with it.

 

[VTA]

I am trying to tell about America from a different standpoint than the American one yes, and in my particular case as your friend, a western European standpoint.
I like European and American values, but have had the dissatisfaction of seeing American ethics sink to a record low.

And which ethics are we talking about?

The military at first eyepoint seem completely volunteer, but looking away from that, seeing who the recruiters targets and who actually joins the military, it is directed towards certain groups, which could be conceived as non-volunteer since they have NO OTHER CHOICE than to accept in their dire situations.

I am not basing my opinions on movies, I am basing them on the facts that the military demographics is quite different than that of the US population. One huge example is that there are almost no women.
Its volunteer only in the way that you dont HAVE to go, UNLESS you are poor or need an education that you could not afford somewhere else.

However, I respect everyone who has been in the military and are willing to defend their country, there is nothing more honorable than that, especially not politics, and how those people end up dead.

The whole supposition is based on a careful use of language to influence the reader, listener, watcher, etc.

But fortunately (or Unfortunately depending on your wants), the media, be it what passes for news, Mike Moore movies, any movies for that matter, does not represent the majority of the American mind. Rural doesn't equate to incestuous, ignorant and criminal. Urban is not a synonym for intellectual, moral, prosperous.

First get these preconditions out of your mind. If you say you're not guilty of that, I'd say you're either lying or unaware of it; the short history of your posts in this topic alone say you do.

There exists of course common mindsets to each of these populations, but if you think an advantage/disadvantage barometer can be placed on one or the other you're mistaken. Intellect transcends geographical boundaries.

It's also worth noting, that the people who can afford to, do get away from the city and live in Rural areas. The truly privileged are not shoe horning themselves in shoulder to shoulder crowds, breathing in bus fumes.
The fantasy of the urban city being the paradise of the rich, intellectual elite is just that.

Secondly, in addition to a careful use of language are careful intentional ommissions. Something you yourself also did, by neglecting to acknowledge a portion of my post. Ommitting the existence of tangiable choices. Affirmative Action programs, government grants, student loans, institutional coverages (United Negro College Fund (see AA), Sons of Italy college funding, etc...). As far as education goes, there are plenty of options for lower income families, and in fact, more than for middle class families.

Why should the military mirror the countries population? Allow me to be somewhat self-deprecating and paint a picture in broad strokes: America is populated by a multitude of self determining individuals, a majority of which are satisfied with concerning themselves with their own self interests. Not particularly selfish louts, but free to be involved with their immediate concerns.

No institution, Governmental, private or otherwise is going to wholly represent it's members. Do you truly think you can use this as a form of slander for the U.S.?

 

[Flea]

Originally Posted by Zeebra
Its my fourth/fifth language, depending if I put French in front of English or not. Wonderful! We live in CA and without the benefit of having dozens of other nations around us I speak 2 languages fluently and about 4 more well enough to get around. So what? So what for you? So what for me? If you can't just tell us flat out if English is your primary language or NOT, then this is an example of you being UNABLE to get it.

Average? How can you judge something like that from an internet forum? Easy. Language Pattern Analysis. It is something a perceptive and smart person could do, so don't fret your little brain over it any longer than you need to.

Unwilling to understand what? More than you can fathom. That the US HAD to go to war in Iraq and lie about the reason to remove the REAL threat which is one man? The USA did not have to go to war and the USA did not lie about it, George Bush lied about it kiddo. I didn't lie. Cherokee didn't lie. My mom didn't lie. GW lied. Are you starting to get this now Zippo?

What am I unwilling to understand? That the US is a huge foreign policy failure? Not everybody agrees with them either, in fact, most Americans are against the war. There are lots of problems with it, yep. Just like the UK invading the Falklands...ooohh, yeah, some of us pay attention. Just like the UK agreeing to invading Iraq.

Whoever think ANYTHING negative about the US or dont agree with them is OBVIOUSLY anti-American, stupid, blind or just unwilling to see the "REAL" truth, that America like Germany in 1940 had the "RIGHT" to change the world in their picture?

No, but if you really think that then you are stupid. I think that most of what America is doing now is not right, and I have said that, but you are to simple-minded to get it. You just generalize and mislabel others just like you mislabel yourself.

newsflash Americans, most of the world, except Europe, blindly hates your country, Europe just dislikes and look down on your naivness and failures.

That is incorrect. Most of the world does not agree with what is happening and how the US handles themselves in many cases, but they love Americans and their culture. Don't be such a hater. I travel kiddo, I talk to people. I have never once gotten any hate at all from anybody. :2razz: Except you and your blind rage.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

That is incorrect. Most of the world does not agree with what is happening and how the US handles themselves in many cases, but they love Americans and their culture. Don't be such a hater. I travel kiddo, I talk to people. I have never once gotten any hate at all from anybody. :2razz: Except you and your blind rage.

You are such a dork. cannot stay on topic, nor post anything sensible without criticizing people or calling them names..

You know what? To me you seem like some blind nationalist that doesn't really get the picture. You way of debating is completely retarded, which tells me something about you. If this is the way you debate with people, it is no wonder you have no friends and had to join the marines in some kind of losers desperate last hope.

Where is the ignore function on this forum? *pushes*

 

[Flea]

I am a dork? Sometimes, yep. Haha, so what? I am also into extreme sports and I am getting my MA in History. We are all lots of things.

Can't stay on topic? Look who is calling the kettle black! :lol: Address some of your ridiculous tangents that led you away from being accountable for you words and then you won't sound so idiotic. OK?

I am sorry that everybody is picking on you. That is what happens to fools sometimes, I know that it isn't nice. Sorry about that!

The Marines? Who are you talking too? My way of debating just uses logic and intellect. That is why you are having trouble. It is OK. I hope you do hit ignore, that will solve aaaall of your problems!

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Today, 03:48 PM
(Remove user from ignore list)
This message is hidden because Johnny_Utah is on your ignore list.

Wow, finally you can say something constructive and sensible.. Thats nice congrats.:2wave:

 

[Flea]

Copying me again! Isn't that cute! :2razz:

You bothered to change my name even though you are ignoring me? Haha, that is a good one.