• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Why things won't change under Trump

NoLeftNoRight

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 16, 2015
Messages
1,578
Reaction score
418
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
The reason is that the few control the gold. And We The People have proven very complacent and willing to accept whatever scraps they throw us.
America is beholden to the wealthy and politically powerful (usually also wealthy by most standards)

Donald Trump sang a good song and convinced many Americans that he would finally change Washington and "drain the swamp". But I HIGHLY doubt any such thing will occur.
I sincerely hope I am wrong, but money rules and Donald has a lot of it. He's an elitist himself by all standards.....a true 1% er.

Our government is a tool...a tool used by the wealthy and powerful to manipulate and deceive the masses into directing and funneling great wealth into their own pockets.
They live like royalty while forcing the average American to be a slave, giving their lives and their time to grease the machines that keep them wealthy while the working class American is BARELY able to afford the bare necessities.

The degree to which the greed has evolved to the detriment of the average American is both obvious and amazing. Yet we continue to lament there's nothing "WE" can do and march complacently into line.

The "Affordable Health Care Act" was one of the most brazen plots to further benefit the wealthy America has ever seen.

At what point do Americans realize they're being played? The wealthy elitist are pitting every conceivable difference between people to set them against each other.
That way, the focus remains on those "Evil Republican voters" or those "ignorant dumb Democrat voters" etc....instead of the real root of the problem. Manipulation by the mega wealthy.

WISE the **** UP people !!!!!!

Learn who your REAL enemy is.....(hint: it's not the liberal, independent, conservative or other you argue with here on the forum)...it's the 1% who really call the shots and the politicians who willfully play along because they get comfy and rich by doing so.
(although there probably are a few dangerous people here on both sides)

Your comments respected and appreciated.
 
Last edited:

WCH

Believer
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
31,009
Reaction score
9,029
Location
The Lone Star State.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Exactly why Trump was elected. We shall see what happens when the elite are confronted by one of their own
 

NoLeftNoRight

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 16, 2015
Messages
1,578
Reaction score
418
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Exactly why Trump was elected. We shall see what happens when the elite are confronted by one of their own

I sincerely hope you are correct. But he and his family are one of them. Why would he jeopardize his position and his families position in life for commoners?

I hope you're right but he has already surrounded himself with millionaires and billionaires in his cabinet choices hasn't he?
 

CriticalThought

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 11, 2009
Messages
19,657
Reaction score
8,454
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
The reason is that the few control the gold. And We The People have proven very complacent and willing to accept whatever scraps they throw us.
America is beholden to the wealthy and politically powerful (usually also wealthy by most standards)

Donald Trump sang a good song and convinced many Americans that he would finally change Washington and "drain the swamp". But I HIGHLY doubt any such thing will occur.
I sincerely hope I am wrong, but money rules and Donald has a lot of it. He's an elitist himself by all standards.....a true 1% er.

Our government is a tool...a tool used by the wealthy and powerful to manipulate and deceive the masses into directing and funneling great wealth into their own pockets.
They live like royalty while forcing the average American to be a slave, giving their lives and their time to grease the machines that keep them wealthy while the working class American is BARELY able to afford the bare necessities.

The degree to which the greed has evolved to the detriment of the average American is both obvious and amazing. Yet we continue to lament there's nothing "WE" can do and march complacently into line.

The "Affordable Health Care Act" was one of the most brazen plots to further benefit the wealthy America has ever seen.

At what point do Americans realize they're being played? The wealthy elitist are pitting every conceivable difference between people to set them against each other.
That way, the focus remains on those "Evil Republican voters" or those "ignorant dumb Democrat voters" etc....instead of the real root of the problem. Manipulation by the mega wealthy.

WISE the **** UP people !!!!!!

Learn who your REAL enemy is.....(hint: it's not the liberal, independent, conservative or other you argue with here on the forum)...it's the 1% who really call the shots and the politicians who willfully play along because they get comfy and rich by doing so.
(although there probably are a few dangerous people here on both sides)

Your comments respected and appreciated.

Blacks against whites. Middle class against those on welfare. Educated against not educated. Islam tolerant Christians against Islam suspicious Christians. Republicans versus Democrats. There is no end to the divisions that the very wealthy can use to distract the rest of us and have us fighting over scraps while they consume the whole pie. That is why it will never change.
 

Ockham

Noblesse oblige
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 12, 2009
Messages
23,909
Reaction score
11,003
Location
New Jersey
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
Blacks against whites. Middle class against those on welfare. Educated against not educated. Islam tolerant Christians against Islam suspicious Christians. Republicans versus Democrats. There is no end to the divisions that the very wealthy can use to distract the rest of us and have us fighting over scraps while they consume the whole pie. That is why it will never change.

There is a lot of truth in your post. Eventually though, change does come - whether or not you or I will see it in our lifetimes is unknown and in what form that change will come is unknown. But yes, the haves and the have-not's have always existed and will always exist regardless of the political philosophy being used. It's all about how much freedoms and how much of the pie the have-nots are allowed to earn.
 

WCH

Believer
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
31,009
Reaction score
9,029
Location
The Lone Star State.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
I sincerely hope you are correct. But he and his family are one of them. Why would he jeopardize his position and his families position in life for commoners?

I hope you're right but he has already surrounded himself with millionaires and billionaires in his cabinet choices hasn't he?
For some time now, the globalist hegemony has seemed to bring America down for it's once lofty position on the world stage. I voted for Trump because he wants to stop this. If he doesn't it could be the end of our dominants.
 

MrPeanut

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Messages
5,506
Reaction score
4,103
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
I sincerely hope you are correct. But he and his family are one of them. Why would he jeopardize his position and his families position in life for commoners?

I hope you're right but he has already surrounded himself with millionaires and billionaires in his cabinet choices hasn't he?

The only way to show the elites we mean business is to hire more of them and then slash their taxes. Trust me, they can only take so much of that.
 

DamnYankee

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 28, 2009
Messages
7,370
Reaction score
3,469
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
The average American can be successful and prosperous regardless of who is rich or how many people are rich. The only group in America that can force you to be a slave is the gov't. No one from corporation X has kicked my door in, held a gun to my head, and forced me to buy their brand or partake in their services.

You have the power and authority to become whatever you decide to be. If you feel like you are being dumped on by the rich, then you are. Although I may not be rich, I am wealthy and joyous and consider myself very successful. Being prosperous and living your life as you see fit should be the goal of everyone.
 

NoLeftNoRight

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 16, 2015
Messages
1,578
Reaction score
418
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
The average American can be successful and prosperous regardless of who is rich or how many people are rich. The only group in America that can force you to be a slave is the gov't. No one from corporation X has kicked my door in, held a gun to my head, and forced me to buy their brand or partake in their services.

You have the power and authority to become whatever you decide to be. If you feel like you are being dumped on by the rich, then you are. Although I may not be rich, I am wealthy and joyous and consider myself very successful. Being prosperous and living your life as you see fit should be the goal of everyone.

Interesting how many poor people flock here while at the same time corporations move their operations elsewhere
This is surely an eventual recipe for economic disaster

I think the government (moved by lobbyist from wealthy interests) deprive a lot of people of opportunity through excess regulation and taxation (fees)
Heck, try to bake cakes at home and sell them online and see what happens.
Don't know how you became successful but whatever you did may not actually be available to just anyone. You may have had certain advantages...inheritance for example.

As far as being forced by corporation X to buy their service.....look at Comcast and AT&T...because of their power you have few choices other than those two if you want Internet connection in many parts of the country. Of course, you don't HAVE to have Internet connectivity....nor do you have to have a car.

I don't want socialism and I do believe opportunity exists. But I also believe the wealthy 1% has manipulated our system to make it FAR easier for THEM to live a luxurious lifestyle than the average American. One way or another. And yes, government at ALL levels is out of control.
 
Last edited:

Chomsky

Social Democrat
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
74,507
Reaction score
60,599
Location
Third Coast
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Exactly why Trump was elected. We shall see what happens when the elite are confronted by one of their own
Confronted?

Perhaps.

Or assisted?

We'll have to wait and see, but many of his important cabinet picks seem to not only be of the swamp, but the big-daddy alligators themselves!

There's reasons why Goldman Sachs & the other Wall Street powers' stocks are flying through the roof! And it's not because they're worried Trump is going to exile them from Washington!
 

Chomsky

Social Democrat
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
74,507
Reaction score
60,599
Location
Third Coast
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
<snip>

Your comments respected and appreciated.
Well, it doesn't seem likely to change much when the new President elect is filling much of his cabinet with Washington, Party establishment, & Wall Street insiders.

So, I'll agree - for now.
 

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong
DP Veteran
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
90,105
Reaction score
53,729
Location
Uhland, Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
There is a lot of truth in your post. Eventually though, change does come - whether or not you or I will see it in our lifetimes is unknown and in what form that change will come is unknown. But yes, the haves and the have-not's have always existed and will always exist regardless of the political philosophy being used. It's all about how much freedoms and how much of the pie the have-nots are allowed to earn.

My concern is in handing over ever more power to 535 congress critters, 1 POTUS and nine robed umpires. Mission creep is the primary mission of the federal government and this was known from day one. The idea that 20% (and growing) of our GDP should be directly in the hands of these few folks and much more of the GDP subject to their nearly direct control through their regulation is absolutely insane.

Government should be kept as small as possible and at the lowest level possible to have any chance of being under the control of the governed that cannot afford to pay to direct it. My letter or phone call to suggest X is far less effective than a lobbyist bearing a six figure campaign contribution and a promise of "after office" employment (should re-election fail due to the "little" people getting upset later) to suggest Y.
 

DamnYankee

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 28, 2009
Messages
7,370
Reaction score
3,469
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Interesting how many poor people flock here while at the same time corporations move their operations elsewhere
This is surely an eventual recipe for economic disaster

Perhaps, but there are always alternatives and opportunities as an individual.

I think the government (moved by lobbyist from wealthy interests) deprive a lot of people of opportunity through excess regulation and taxation (fees)
Heck, try to bake cakes at home and sell them online and see what happens.

In the end, it is the gov’t that has that ability to enslave. Not corporations because they cannot force you into something you do not want.


Don't know how you became successful but whatever you did may not actually be available to just anyone. You may have had certain advantages...inheritance for example.

Success is available to everyone, so is prosperity. A long story short; I grew up poor. There was no inheritance. I made a choice early on, in my pre-teens, that I wanted to be something more than a poor kid living on the bad side of town. So I set some goals in my life and remained focused. And now I have a fabulous pension and a sizeable 401k I draw on. Just prior to retiring, I marketed my skills and was able to secure another job. No inheritance. No gov’t help. No money lent to me. If I can do it, so can others. I am extremely blessed, and I give back, and I am grateful.

The trick, if there is one, is not to fall into the trap that you can’t do that what you want to do.

As far as being forced by corporation X to buy their service.....look at Comcast and AT&T...because of their power you have few choices other than those two if you want Internet connection in many parts of the country. Of course, you don't HAVE to have Internet connectivity....nor do you have to have a car.

You had it right. You don’t have to buy their service because they cannot make you.

I don't want socialism and I do believe opportunity exists. But I also believe the wealthy 1% has manipulated our system to make it FAR easier for THEM to live a luxurious lifestyle than the average American. One way or another.

Don’t fall into the trap of believing you cannot have something because someone else took it all. That simply is not true. People become rich every day. If I listened to all those people who came into my life at one time or another, I would still be that poor schmuck living hand to mouth. So, to counter all that, I set a goal, focused on it, imagined myself living a successful, prosperous, abundant, life. And I proved all those naysayers not only wrong but dead wrong.

Only you can define what is wealth to you, or success, or whatever it is you seek. Once you do, then strive towards it. You will be unstoppable.
 

WCH

Believer
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
31,009
Reaction score
9,029
Location
The Lone Star State.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Confronted?

Perhaps.

Or assisted?

We'll have to wait and see, but many of his important cabinet picks seem to not only be of the swamp, but the big-daddy alligators themselves!

There's reasons why Goldman Sachs & the other Wall Street powers' stocks are flying through the roof! And it's not because they're worried Trump is going to exile them from Washington!
Not seeing them as targets and these are the people who helped build this country into a great economic power.

BTW: what happened to all the naysayers predicting the collapse of the market if Trump were elected? Anyone feel lied to yet?
 

Geoist

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
28,052
Reaction score
18,380
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
The appointee for Treasury left GS after 17 years to make movies...really good ones. He knows the ins and outs just as does Trump.

He didn't just make movies. Mnuchin's bank OneWest was part of the problem in the '08 crisis.
 

Visbek

Stuck In The Circle
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 28, 2011
Messages
20,495
Reaction score
14,339
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
The reason is that the few control the gold. And We The People have proven very complacent and willing to accept whatever scraps they throw us.
America is beholden to the wealthy and politically powerful (usually also wealthy by most standards)

Donald Trump sang a good song and convinced many Americans that he would finally change Washington and "drain the swamp". But I HIGHLY doubt any such thing will occur.
I sincerely hope I am wrong, but money rules and Donald has a lot of it. He's an elitist himself by all standards.....a true 1% er.

Our government is a tool...a tool used by the wealthy and powerful to manipulate and deceive the masses into directing and funneling great wealth into their own pockets.
They live like royalty while forcing the average American to be a slave, giving their lives and their time to grease the machines that keep them wealthy while the working class American is BARELY able to afford the bare necessities.

The degree to which the greed has evolved to the detriment of the average American is both obvious and amazing. Yet we continue to lament there's nothing "WE" can do and march complacently into line.

The "Affordable Health Care Act" was one of the most brazen plots to further benefit the wealthy America has ever seen.

At what point do Americans realize they're being played? The wealthy elitist are pitting every conceivable difference between people to set them against each other.
That way, the focus remains on those "Evil Republican voters" or those "ignorant dumb Democrat voters" etc....instead of the real root of the problem. Manipulation by the mega wealthy.

WISE the **** UP people !!!!!!

Learn who your REAL enemy is.....(hint: it's not the liberal, independent, conservative or other you argue with here on the forum)...it's the 1% who really call the shots and the politicians who willfully play along because they get comfy and rich by doing so.
(although there probably are a few dangerous people here on both sides)

Your comments respected and appreciated.
We'll see about that ;)

While I agree with some of what you say, I find the "both parties are identical!" claim to be excessively reductionist, manipulative and deliberately ignorant. There are clearly differences between Republicans and Democrats on many issues. To name a few:

  • Economic policy
  • The role of government
  • The proper size of government
  • Tax policy
  • The purpose, funding and future of Social Security
  • Medicare
  • Medicaid
  • Unemployment insurance
  • Education
  • Climate Change
  • Pollution
  • Gun control
  • Regulation of business
  • Abortion rights
  • Civil rights
  • The use of force in international affairs
  • Immigration
  • Law enforcement
  • Incarceration
  • Death penalty
  • Voting rights
  • Freedom of religion

etc

We should also note that until about 1 year ago, both parties were actually in favor of free trade agreements. That is now up in the air.

Now, it is the case that there is quite a bit of regulatory and electoral capture by the wealthy. At the same time, "The Wealthy" are not a monolithic bloc that has a unified agenda. The 1% (or really, the 0.01%) are just as divided as the rest of us.

E.g. George Soros and Bill Koch are deeply opposed about most of the topics listed above. What do you think they actually agree on? Which one of the two has an iron grip on elected officials? Or perhaps you imagine that they meet in some smoke-filled room, and agree to pretend that they are political opposites?



Uh... No. Not even close.

The ACA has provided health insurance for 20 million people, few of whom are in the 1%. No one is getting rich off the Medicaid expansion.

It did protect the role of the insurers -- but also whacked them if their profits were too high, and they spent too much on overhead. One reason why some insurers are pulling out of the exchanges is because they aren't netting the profits they'd like. It didn't drive up drug prices. It didn't cause the decade plus of double-digit hikes in insurance costs before it kicked in.

And of course, if it was a blatant heist by politicians in the pocket of the wealthy, then why did the Republicans fight it tooth and nail? Why are they planning a repeal? The very idea clashes directly with your own claims in that very same post.
 

WCH

Believer
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
31,009
Reaction score
9,029
Location
The Lone Star State.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
He didn't just make movies. Mnuchin's bank OneWest was part of the problem in the '08 crisis.

Sounds to me like they fixed other bank's problems, absorbed their losses and did what was allowed under the law.

That article you posted gives him some fairly good references and tells how the Obama admin has ignored Fannie and Freddie for 8 years. If you're not an insider, you won't know how to fix it.
 

Chomsky

Social Democrat
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
74,507
Reaction score
60,599
Location
Third Coast
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Not seeing them as targets and these are the people who helped build this country into a great economic power.

BTW: what happened to all the naysayers predicting the collapse of the market if Trump were elected? Anyone feel lied to yet?
Look, we know we need a strong economy & business community. But Trump ran on removing the undue influence of those in the swamp, and now he's hiring the alligators!

Preibus?

Romney?

Goldman Sachs?

Yeah, that's really some anti-establishment credibility there, alright! :doh

And yes, the market originally tanked due to the uncertainty of an anti-establishment candidate vowing to clean house in the name of the People. Now that they see he's appointing their own kind in spades - for better than business as usual - they're ecstatic & rallying!
 

Visbek

Stuck In The Circle
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 28, 2011
Messages
20,495
Reaction score
14,339
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
My concern is in handing over ever more power to 535 congress critters, 1 POTUS and nine robed umpires. Mission creep is the primary mission of the federal government and this was known from day one. The idea that 20% (and growing) of our GDP should be directly in the hands of these few folks and much more of the GDP subject to their nearly direct control through their regulation is absolutely insane.

Government should be kept as small as possible and at the lowest level possible to have any chance of being under the control of the governed that cannot afford to pay to direct it. My letter or phone call to suggest X is far less effective than a lobbyist bearing a six figure campaign contribution and a promise of "after office" employment (should re-election fail due to the "little" people getting upset later) to suggest Y.
I just have to point out, people have been saying this in order to get their way since, oh... 1800. How's that working out? :mrgreen:

As to government spending and GDP: 75% of annual spending is for Social Security (meaning, citizens spend it), Medicare (whose spending is regulated, but ultimately based on citizen needs) and Defense. Which of those three would you like to cut?

Oh, and let's not forget the Constitution was originally written so that the President, Congress and SCOTUS would deliberately compete for power, screw each other up, and otherwise crawl things to a halt. (Francis Fukuyama refers to this as, and is critical of it as, a "vetocracy.")

Anyway. The reality is that the larger and more complex our society becomes, the more we demand of government. Good luck shrinking it.
 

Ockham

Noblesse oblige
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 12, 2009
Messages
23,909
Reaction score
11,003
Location
New Jersey
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
My concern is in handing over ever more power to 535 congress critters, 1 POTUS and nine robed umpires. Mission creep is the primary mission of the federal government and this was known from day one. The idea that 20% (and growing) of our GDP should be directly in the hands of these few folks and much more of the GDP subject to their nearly direct control through their regulation is absolutely insane.

Government should be kept as small as possible and at the lowest level possible to have any chance of being under the control of the governed that cannot afford to pay to direct it. My letter or phone call to suggest X is far less effective than a lobbyist bearing a six figure campaign contribution and a promise of "after office" employment (should re-election fail due to the "little" people getting upset later) to suggest Y.

Agreed, small government is a better government. If Trump doesn't grow the government like his predecessors did, I'd see that as a positive. Is that enough of a change? In my opinion no... and I don't think a larger bureaucracy is the answer - I'd like to see Trump or whomever, remove some government agency's - that's the kind of change that I can get behind.
 

Geoist

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
28,052
Reaction score
18,380
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
Sounds to me like they fixed other bank's problems, absorbed their losses and did what was allowed under the law.

And Trump bought politicians on both sides of the aisle as was allowed under the law. The point is, Trump ran on a promise to clean up DC of unethical government/business practices.


If you're not an insider, you won't know how to fix it.

Then why did you vote for an "outsider?"
 

WCH

Believer
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
31,009
Reaction score
9,029
Location
The Lone Star State.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
And Trump bought politicians on both sides of the aisle as was allowed under the law. The point is, Trump ran on a promise to clean up DC of unethical government/business practices.




Then why did you vote for an "outsider?"

Because he knows the insiders and how to deal with them.
 

NoLeftNoRight

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 16, 2015
Messages
1,578
Reaction score
418
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Very Liberal

Uh... No. Not even close.

The ACA has provided health insurance for 20 million people, few of whom are in the 1%. No one is getting rich off the Medicaid expansion.

It did protect the role of the insurers -- but also whacked them if their profits were too high, and they spent too much on overhead. One reason why some insurers are pulling out of the exchanges is because they aren't netting the profits they'd like. It didn't drive up drug prices. It didn't cause the decade plus of double-digit hikes in insurance costs before it kicked in.

And of course, if it was a blatant heist by politicians in the pocket of the wealthy, then why did the Republicans fight it tooth and nail? Why are they planning a repeal? The very idea clashes directly with your own claims in that very same post.

Good points. Everyone that I know has had tremendous hikes in their premiums. To the point they are practically working to pay for health insurance. At the same time, really low income people are not getting the care that was promised. In fact, in states without exchanges, if you're too far below the poverty level you can't get any subsidies at all.

So there seems to be a disparity between the windfall of cash being paid in and the services offered at a discount.
That said, I really don't know how many people are enjoying free Obamacare (or practically free).. I really don't trust the government numbers after all the dust cleared.
 
Top Bottom