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Why They Fight

Is that why they imposed sanctions on the Iraqi people, which led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis (500,000 children died as a result of those sanctions; if that's just children, guess how many more died!). Is that why the US targetted necessary civilian infrastructure during Gulf War 1 and later, which led to a massive humanitarian crisis and the complete destruction of Iraqi society? Is that why they supported both sides in the Iran-Iraq war? Is that why they supplied Iraq with anthrax and other chemical weaponry? They did all these because they had the interest of the Iraqi people in mind?

And you have proof of this? You have REAL reports that show the UN sanctions (did you miss that part about the UN and NOT just the US?) caused the deaths of 500k children? What’s really funny is people like you missed the FACT Saddam could have stopped the UN sanctions at anytime. Did he? No he didn’t. He agreed to the demands after the Gulf war then did everything he could to back out of them. The US didn’t support both side of the Iran/Iraq war. The US supplied about 5% of the TOTAL weapons to Iraq. Russia and France supplied the rest.




I could list countless times where the US wasn't interested in the "freedom and well being of" oppressed people - japanese concentration camps in the US, the recognition of Leopold's Congo, the deposition of numerous democratically elected officials by the CIA, the CIA backed coup in Iran, Bay of Pigs, the list goes on. Your assertion that the US is the arbiter of freedom is just ****ing ridiculous.

I love it how you throw in the Japs held during WWII and by the way they weren’t concentration camps. They were called Inurnment camps. Bay of pigs? You mean the same one the US president wouldn’t allow air support for? Coup in Iran, You mean the 1953 British plan to overthrow the Iranian government?
But please list some more……



If you think the US invaded Iraq to "free the Iraqi people" then you're sorely mistaken. If this were the case then the situation with Iraq would have been handled much differently since Saddam was put in power and supported financially and politically by the US. .

Saddam placed himself in power not the US.
Thank the Ba'ath Party for his rise to power.




Do you know anything about the situation in Iraq? The government is already controlled by "one sect"; it is a Shi'ite government.
Again, the government is composed of Shi'ite politicians; it's also been discovered that Shi'ite death squads are operating within the ISF and with the collusion of key ministers in the Iraqi government. The fact is that the current government doesn't represent the interests of the Iraqi people, it isn't secular or democratic, and it isn't going to be a solution to this problem.
They already are. The American people don't know **** about the situation in Iraq because most of them get their news from TV, which is incredibly incomplete and uninformative.
And if the US was really interested solely in deposing Saddam, all they had to do was agree with his deal to hold internationally monitored elections, which wasn't even considered as an option. If they were interested in Iraq disarming they would have allowed the inspections to continue, as they were wholly effective in destroying the vast majority of Iraq's weaponry.

I know something about the situation in Iraq. I know the US took Saddam out of power and held elections for the first time in years. I know the Iraqi people voted its government into office . I also know they don’t give a chit about freedom or peace as seen by their actions of preferring to kill each other like it’s the new national past time instead of rebuilding a free and better Iraq. I know that Islam is to blame since the sectarian war that’s going on is nothing more then a “holy war”.
You would think with the Muslim being the greatest thing since sliced bread they would have came together to help out their fellow Muslims but that’s just not the case is it?
 
Where do you believe intel comes from? Are you saying you cant listen to them because there soldiers?

No

Yes they can. Even soldiers have a right to an opinion.
After all this isn’t an Islamic government.

Do these rules have any impact? I don't pretend to be an expert here, just came across them doing a little research

Article 88—Contempt toward officials
Text.

“Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”

Elements.

(1) That the accused was a commissioned officer of the United States armed forces;

(2) That the accused used certain words against an official or legislature named in the article;

(3) That by an act of the accused these words came to the knowledge of a person other than the accused; and

(4) That the words used were contemptuous, either in themselves or by virtue of the circumstances under which they were used.
...
The truth or falsity of the statements is immaterial.
...

Note: While only commissioned officers can be charged under this article, DOD Directive 1344.10- POLITICAL ACTIVITIES BY MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES ON ACTIVE DUTY, extend these same requirements to all individuals on active duty. Enlisted members and warrant officers who violate these provisions can be charged under Article 92, of the UCMJ, Failure to Obey an Order or Regulation.

Article 134—Disloyal statements
Text.

See Paragraph 60.

Elements.

(1) That the accused made a certain statement;

(2) That the statement was communicated to another person;

(3) That the statement was disloyal to the United States;

(4) That the statement was made with the intent to promote disloyalty or disaffection toward the United States by any member of the armed forces or to interfere with or impair the loyalty to the United States or good order and discipline of any member of the armed forces; and

(5) That, under the circumstances, the conduct of the accused was to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces or was of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces.
...
Examples include praising the enemy, attacking the war aims of the United States,...
 
No



Do these rules have any impact? I don't pretend to be an expert here, just came across them doing a little research

Article 88—Contempt toward officials
Text.

“Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”

Elements.

(1) That the accused was a commissioned officer of the United States armed forces;

(2) That the accused used certain words against an official or legislature named in the article;

(3) That by an act of the accused these words came to the knowledge of a person other than the accused; and

(4) That the words used were contemptuous, either in themselves or by virtue of the circumstances under which they were used.
...
The truth or falsity of the statements is immaterial.
...

Note: While only commissioned officers can be charged under this article, DOD Directive 1344.10- POLITICAL ACTIVITIES BY MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES ON ACTIVE DUTY, extend these same requirements to all individuals on active duty. Enlisted members and warrant officers who violate these provisions can be charged under Article 92, of the UCMJ, Failure to Obey an Order or Regulation.

Article 134—Disloyal statements
Text.

See Paragraph 60.

Elements.

(1) That the accused made a certain statement;

(2) That the statement was communicated to another person;

(3) That the statement was disloyal to the United States;

(4) That the statement was made with the intent to promote disloyalty or disaffection toward the United States by any member of the armed forces or to interfere with or impair the loyalty to the United States or good order and discipline of any member of the armed forces; and

(5) That, under the circumstances, the conduct of the accused was to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces or was of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces.
...
Examples include praising the enemy, attacking the war aims of the United States,...



Certain disloyal statements by military personnel may not constitute an offense under 18 U.S.C. §§ 2385, 2387, and 2388, but may, under the circumstances, be punishable under this article. Examples include praising the enemy, attacking the war aims of the United States, or denouncing our form of government with the intent to promote disloyalty or disaffection among members of the armed services.

A declaration of personal belief can amount to a disloyal statement if it disavows allegiance owed to the United States by the declarant. The disloyalty involved for this offense must be to the United States as a political entity and not merely to a department or other agency that is a part of its administration.
 
There is a common tendency among most of the war critics to look at ONE or maybe TWO reasons for the invasion when there were many and about three of them were REALLY good reasons. So good that even if you removed all the others that ONE reason would stand alone as being worth the actions taken.

"America will be making only one determination: is Iraq meeting the terms of the Security Council resolution [1441] or not?... If Iraq fails to fully comply, the United States and other nations will disarm Saddam Hussein."
— President George W. Bush
November 8, 2002, the day the UN Security Council
passed Resolution 1441

"The world needs him [Saddam Hussein] to answer a single question: Has the Iraqi regime fully and unconditionally disarmed, as required by Resolution 1441, or has it not?"
— President George W. Bush
press conference, March 6, 2003

What I am saying is that debating the ins and outs and roundabouts of the aluminum tubes is certainly a factor to be considered but as far as the decision of going into Iraq and who was making that decision and what directly and most significantly affected their decision making you can not get around the fact that no matter what the evidence was, unless it could be ascertained with near 100% reliability that there WAS NOT GOING TO BE A GIANT CRATER IN THE PLACE OF ISRAEL the err HAD to be on the side of caution.

Try thinking like someone who had a terribly difficult decision to make.

While I agree that the US has an interest in Israel;you continue to bring up Israel as the causi belli for US action. Why do you continue to contend that the US should go to war against a nation it should otherwise have little beef with because of a mere supposed threat to Israel?


GOD FORBID THIS WOULD EVER HAPPEN IN REAL LIFE TO ANYONE READING THIS. It is just an example.

A crazed person has a gun and he is alternately waving it around the room while gesturing as he talks and when not doing that he is holding the gun to the head of your Puppy or Kitten (or ???).

The crazed guy says the gun is not loaded. You believe him but you aren't sure. The gun is inspected and no bullets are shown. Looking at the gun, you realize that it is not a gun at all but a plastic replica, indicated by the red plastic tipped barrell and the "Mattel" stamp on the side.

While he is waving the gun away from Spot or Fluffy or ??? you have a chance to shoot him dead with your own concealed weapon. However, there are a lot of innocent people standing all around the crazy guy and if you shoot at him you'll kill them.

Your call. What do you do?

Easy choice?

Pretty much.

Ok, well what if while you are contemplating firing into the crowd to try to shoot this unarmed, non-dangerous, crazy guy, you look across the street and you see a guy you know who is wanted by the Police for murder? You can go out and apprehend the known murderer, or stay and shoot the unarmed crazy guy, but you can't do both effectively.

Well that is a similar set of dynamics that the administration had to deal with.

OK. The scenario makes it clear.

Then there are the OTHER reasons, each of which stands alone strongly enough to justify the invasion.

Like what?
 

Certain disloyal statements by military personnel may not constitute an offense under 18 U.S.C. §§ 2385, 2387, and 2388, but may, under the circumstances, be punishable under this article. Examples include praising the enemy, attacking the war aims of the United States, or denouncing our form of government with the intent to promote disloyalty or disaffection among members of the armed services.

A declaration of personal belief can amount to a disloyal statement if it disavows allegiance owed to the United States by the declarant. The disloyalty involved for this offense must be to the United States as a political entity and not merely to a department or other agency that is a part of its administration.

Thus, if a soldier states that he thinks the Bush Administration was wrong to attack Iraq, and that the war is unjustified and not legitimate, that sounds to me like that is a forbidden "attacking the war aims of the United States".
 
Thus, if a soldier states that he thinks the Bush Administration was wrong to attack Iraq, and that the war is unjustified and not legitimate, that sounds to me like that is a forbidden "attacking the war aims of the United States".

That’s your opinion. Is it right? No it isn’t.
After Beirut everyone around me knew how much I hated Reagan.
Was I CM'ed ? No I wasn’t.

Besides why not just speak off the record if you believe bush was wrong or that you thought the war was unjustified? Why must you try to see justification of your beliefs in a soldiers eyes and when you cant you say “Well they cant say what they think”

Do you think for one-second soldiers on the ground give a chit about if it was right or wrong to go into Iraq or if it was unjustified or legitimate?
 
That’s your opinion. Is it right? No it isn’t.

Why isn't it right?

After Beirut everyone around me knew how much I hated Reagan.
Was I CM'ed ? No I wasn’t.

OK

Besides why not just speak off the record if you believe bush was wrong or that you thought the war was unjustified? Why must you try to see justification of your beliefs in a soldiers eyes and when you cant you say “Well they cant say what they think”

Because, while I have seen soldiers make fun of folks like Kerry, I have seen few or none "on the record" criticize the Iraq war. Now, even given the fact that military folks tend to be conservative, it strikes me as odd, so that was why I asked if there was some rule that prohibited or limited what soldiers can say.

When I asked if soldiers were free to criticize the war in Iraq, you said they were, but determined not to point out those rules I found, which appear to me directly go to the issue of what soldiers can or cannot say, which I find a little suspicious. Then you reacted to my questions in a somewhat hostile manner, like me even raising the question was an affront of some sort, which I also find strange. So sorry if I question your assertions on this topic.

Do you think for one-second soldiers on the ground give a chit about if it was right or wrong to go into Iraq or if it was unjustified or legitimate?

As a matter of the performance of their job, they shouldn't. As a matter of person opinion, some might.
 
Because, while I have seen soldiers make fun of folks like Kerry, I have seen few or none "on the record" criticize the Iraq war. Now, even given the fact that military folks tend to be conservative, it strikes me as odd, so that was why I asked if there was some rule that prohibited or limited what soldiers can say.

When I asked if soldiers were free to criticize the war in Iraq, you said they were, but determined not to point out those rules I found, which appear to me directly go to the issue of what soldiers can or cannot say, which I find a little suspicious.

Then you reacted to my questions in a hostile manner, like me even raising the question was an affront, which I also find strange. So sorry if I question your assertions on this topic.



As a matter of the performance of their job, they shouldn't. As a matter of person opinion, some might.

I wasn’t hostile towards you, I just asked you a question.


They don’t care about what got them there. What they do care about is

1. staying alive. (but will break this rule for rule 2)
2. Buddies staying alive.
3. Mission.
4.Who the fook comes up with the chit in an MRE?
5.bush and why I'm here.
 
I wasn’t hostile towards you, I just asked you a question.


They don’t care about what got them there. What they do care about is

1. staying alive. (but will break this rule for rule 2)
2. Buddies staying alive.
3. Mission.
4.Who the fook comes up with the chit in an MRE?
5.bush and why I'm here.

Fair enough. My inquiry came from the suggestion earlier in this thread as to whether soldier's opinions should be taken with a grain of salt; that was why I had asked if there were reasons their opinons might be constrained.

I could see why they would be; maintaining an effective fighting force would be tough if soldiers were allowed to go around bad mouthing their CiC or mission.
 
____
Duh! Bush said that he invaded Iraq to "free the Iraqi people." Calling his invasion "Enduring Iraqi freedom."
So whats all of your :bs about conquering the world etc.?:roll:

Actually there are two operations taking place. Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom. Operation Iraqi Freedom is the operation that people are whining about....when the simple fix is to quit court marshalling and let the boys and girls lay the hammer down right. That is the ONLY problem that I see....If the infantry and marines could fight like they were trained and utilize deadly force to the fullest...it would be alot different. Operation Enduring Freedom is the action, mostly, taking place in Afghanistan. There isnt and never was to my knowledge (and I was in charge of sending out folks from my squadron for a year and a half) an Enduring Iraqi Freedom campaign. And for the "free the Iraqi people" I did a stint in both afghanistan and Iraq...and will tell you that ANY good is never reported...for instance when 20 tons of toys, clothes and food were shipped in for christmas to be handed out to children and families....that never made it....and that may be my only example..but i SAW that and that amount is pretty friggin significant. For what its worth.
 
"Sorry I killed your mom and 'detained' your dad. Here's a toy.":lol:


Well put Khayembii...it was an example...i dont know all humane actions..i just put one that I SAW...no matter as its apparent from your posts that you are Anti-U.S. regardless of the issue and so forth not worth a dime in my book
 
Well put Khayembii...it was an example...i dont know all humane actions..i just put one that I SAW..

You give crap, you get it.

no matter as its apparent from your posts that you are Anti-U.S. regardless of the issue and so forth not worth a dime in my book

I'm not anti-US. I'm anti-capitalist.
 
You give crap, you get it.



I'm not anti-US. I'm anti-capitalist.

No im pretty sure im getting an anti-america vibe from reading your stuff. Ya know how we do it...500k kids for breakfast right? Now THAT post was crap.
 
No im pretty sure im getting an anti-america vibe from reading your stuff.

You get what you look for.

Ya know how we do it...500k kids for breakfast right? Now THAT post was crap.

UNICEF disagrees with you.

But UNICEF is an anti-American secular-progressive organization full of gay atheists bent on raising taxes and taking your money, right?:lol:
 
You get what you look for.
UNICEF disagrees with you.
But UNICEF is an anti-American secular-progressive organization full of gay atheists bent on raising taxes and taking your money, right?:lol:


Yeah GOD forbid you blame the man who wouldn’t comply with the UN sanctions HE agreed to. Guess you also believe Saddam was just a victim?

But you gotta love the crystal ball UNICEF they can tell what kids died because of Saddam and what kids died because of the UN.

Did we notice how I said the UN and NOT just the US?...hmmmm
 
"Sorry I killed your mom and 'detained' your dad. Here's a toy.":lol:


What you mean they left a family member alive?
DAMN, just damn!
Our boys are slacking..........:roll:
 
No im pretty sure im getting an anti-america vibe from reading your stuff..

For fundamentalists such as this one, all you have to do is remember that everything in the world is reduced in complexity to a simplistic level of understanding where all the world's ills are a product of western civilization, and the rest of the world is always victim of the west. No matter the subject and no matter the context oractual behavior involved, all you will ever get is the same sort of dogmatic recitation heavy on buzzwords like "imperialism", but with no actual original thought or analysis.

It's the one size fits all approach to the world, and differs little from religious fundamentalism in nature.
 
Yeah GOD forbid you blame the man who wouldn’t comply with the UN sanctions HE agreed to. Guess you also believe Saddam was just a victim?

Iraq under the Ba'ath party was one of the most progressive countries in the region with regards to issues such as secular government, abortion, and others; however, Saddam's regime was also an incredibly oppressive and violent state apparatus that tortured and killed many of its own citizens. I believe neither that Saddam is the victim or the culprit; such a Manichean viewpoint is simplistic and unrealistic.

As for the sanctions: these sanctions were enforced much more strictly than they should have been, which led to the humanitarian crisis that resulted in Iraq following the Gulf War and the imposition of the sanctions.

The reason this came to be is because Iraq wasn't allowed to buy anything with regards to chemicals or communications equipment. This included vaccinations for Iraqis, medicine and necessary medical supplies, ambulances, etc... which I will discuss later.

But you gotta love the crystal ball UNICEF they can tell what kids died because of Saddam and what kids died because of the UN.

This report covers the UNICEF report rather well. Not to mention the fact that first, it's UNICEF and not some partisan political organization and second, this report has been supported by UN officials. Also, a more interesting fact, is that on May 10, 1996, appearing on 60 Minutes, Madeleine Albright was presented with the UNICEF figure. Not challenging this figure, she infamously replied "We think the price is worth it."

Anyways, I'll provide some information from that aforementioned report just so you don't have to comb through it if you don't want to.

"The results show that childhood mortality rates in the South/Centre declined steadily from the mid-70s to the end of the 1980s and that there was a substantial relative drop in the postneonatal mortality rate (50 per cent). In 1991 the mortality rates soared to levels higher than those of the mid-70s except for the child mortality rate 4 1 q , though this too showed an increase of 45 per cent on the rate for 1990. After the 1991 upsurge in mortality, the rates continued to rise but at a slower pace. None of the post-1991 rates were significantly higher than those of 1991 at the 95 per cent confidence level, except for the under-five rate in 1998, which was significantly higher than the rates in 1991, 1992 and 1993 (Figure 1).

...

Table 5 shows the estimated annual number of childhood deaths by single years of age. It can be seen that, in the period 1991-98 as a whole, the estimated total number of deaths was 794,216, whereas if the mortality rates of 1986-90 had remained constant, the implied number of deaths for the period 1991-98 would have been 412,270. The difference between the totals yields an estimated excess mortality of 381,947 under-five deaths. Alternatively, if instead of remaining constant, mortality had continued to decline at the pre-1990 rate, deaths in the period 1991-98 would have been reduced to a total of 312,323, and the estimated number of excess deaths would be 481,893. These two figures—382,000 and 482,000—could reasonably be regarded as the upper and lower limits of the estimated number of excess deaths."

Page 23 of the report is a summary of the data and has more information on this number.

Did we notice how I said the UN and NOT just the US?...hmmmm

It was the US and not just the UN. This is from an interview with Hans von Sponeck, the former Assistant Secretary General and UN Humanitarian Coordinator for Iraq:

LE: My understanding is that that the US has blocked equipment that could repair Iraq’s water and electrical system under the rubric that this equipment could supposedly be used to rebuild Iraq’s military, and that this is a big contributing factor to the suffering of the people. What can you tell me about that?

HvS: Well of course that has happened ever since the oil-for-food program started in 1996. This has been a problem, because it is contributing to making this oil-for-food program even more disjointed. At this very moment, as of 2 weeks ago, there were $4 billion worth of humanitarian supplies kept back by the U.S. And this despite all the pleading, and also the fact that we have a whole army of observers, foreign observers, in Iraq...

LE: How many?

HvS: Altogether there are roughly 670 international staff, and over 1,000 Iraqis who are helping us. Out of this international staff, there are about 300 that have no other job but to ply the roads of Iraq to look at warehouses, to look at hospitals, to look at educational facilities, to look at electricity companies, to insure that the items that arrive actually went where they were supposed to go. And the picture that has emerged is a totally acceptable picture - things go where they should go. But what do you do if, out of pieces of equipment needed to rehabilitate an electricity supply center, 10 percent hasn’t arrived because it’s blocked by the U.S.? Then that means that the other 90 percent are useless or have to be stored, and this has been the picture. The main culprit in holding equipment back is the US. Ninety-eight percent of all contracts blocked are blocked by the Americans.

LE: What kinds of things are we talking about being blocked?

HvS: We are talking about a wide variety ranging from educational materials at times - this has improved, this is not so severe a problem anymore. What really continues to be a severe problem, with implications for health treatment, healthcare, for electricity and water supply, is [the blocking of] anything that has to do with chemicals, laboratory equipment, generators, chloride, any water purification inputs, communication equipment.

For example, it took over a year to release ambulances because they were blocked since they contained, as they should – in America you don’t have an ambulance without communication equipment inside - but they had communication equipment and they were blocked. So the Iraqis did not have access to such an important thing as an ambulance. So it is a saga that is really unbelievable. But it’s all part, in my view, of insuring that the sanction road on which Iraq must travel is never a smooth one, it is always a rocky one.

It's also interesting to note that von Sponeck resigned his post as UN Humanitarian Coordinator because of the unjust and "genocidal" nature of the sanctions. von Sponeck succeeded Denis Halliday, who resigned for the same reason.

For fundamentalists such as this one, all you have to do is remember that everything in the world is reduced in complexity to a simplistic level of understanding where all the world's ills are a product of western civilization, and the rest of the world is always victim of the west. No matter the subject and no matter the context oractual behavior involved, all you will ever get is the same sort of dogmatic recitation heavy on buzzwords like "imperialism", but with no actual original thought or analysis.

It's the one size fits all approach to the world, and differs little from religious fundamentalism in nature.

Sounds more like 25hook to me.
 
Khayembii Communique,


No whether or not I believe your report, yes I have a problem with reports such as this one that uses surveys instead of seeking the actual death certificates.
How does any of it matter? Saddam had the power to put an end to the sanctions the entire time. Now you stated the sanctions prevented medical supplies. That’s a bold face lie and you know it. Allow me, Please pay close attention to the type in BOLD

RESOLUTION 661 (1990)
Adopted by the Security Council at its 2933rd meeting on 6 August 1990
The Security Council,
Reaffirming its resolution 660 (1990) of 2 August 1990,

Decides that all States shall prevent:
(a) The import into their territories of all commodities and products originating in Iraq or Kuwait exported therefrom after the date of the present resolution;
(b) Any activities by their nationals or in their territories which would promote or are calculated to promote the export or trans-shipment of any commodities or products from Iraq or Kuwait; and any dealings by their nationals or their flag vessels or in their territories in any commodities or products originating in Iraq or Kuwait and exported therefrom after the date of the present resolution, including in particular any transfer of funds to Iraq or Kuwait for the purposes of such activities or dealings;

(c) The sale or supply by their nationals or from their territories or using their flag vessels of any commodities or products, including weapons or any other military equipment, whether or not originating in their territories but not including supplies intended strictly for medical purposes, and, in humanitarian circumstances, foodstuffs, to any person or body in Iraq or Kuwait or to any person or body for the purposes of any business carried on in or operated from Iraq or Kuwait, and any activities by their nationals or in their territories which promote or are calculated to promote such sale or supply of such commodities or products;

4. Decides that all States shall not make available to the Government of Iraq or to any commercial, industrial or public utility undertaking in Iraq or Kuwait, any funds or any other financial or economic resources and shall prevent their nationals and any persons within their territories from removing from their territories or otherwise making available to that Government or to any such undertaking any such funds or resources and from remitting any other funds to persons or bodies within Iraq or Kuwait, except payments exclusively for strictly medical or humanitarian purposes and, in humanitarian circumstances, foodstuffs;
Security Council resolution 661 (1990) on the situation between Iraq and Kuwait


RESOLUTION 666 (1990)
Adopted by the Security Council at its 2939th meeting on
13 September 1990


8. Recalls that resolution 661 (1990) does not apply to supplies
intended strictly for medical purposes, but in this connection recommends that medical supplies should be exported under the strict supervision of the
Government of the exporting State or by appropriate humanitarian agencies."
http://www.casi.org.uk/info/undocs/gopher/s90/20



Now let us look at some of the things Saddam did.

February 28, 1991 Tariq 'Aziz announces Iraq's acceptance of all relevant U.N. Security Council Resolutions. Saddam Hussein calls on his troops to cease fire. President Bush announces a coalition ceasefire.

April 3, 1991
U.N. Security Council Resolution 687 specifies cease-fire conditions. The Resolution mandates that Iraq respect the sovereignty of Kuwait; declare and destroy, remove, or render harmless all ballistic missile systems with a range of more than 150 kilometers; confirms that Iraq must repatriate all Kuwaiti and third-state nationals and extend complete cooperation to the Red Cross in these efforts; and create a compensation fund, financed by Iraq, to meet its liability for losses, damages, and injuries related to its unlawful occupation of Kuwait. (State)

April 16,1991 Following an Iraqi army offensive against Kurds in northern Iraq which results in 2 million Kurdish refugees, President Bush announces a plan to establish "safe havens" in northern Iraq, protected by US, French, and British troops. (MEED)


June 23-28, 1991 Iraq violates cease-fire agreements and U.N. Security Council Resolution 687. For the first time, Iraqi troops fire shots to prevent UNSCOM/IAEA inspectors from intercepting Iraqi vehicles carrying nuclear-related equipment. Equipment is later found and destroyed under cease-fire rules. (State)

July 18-20, 1991 Iraqi ballistic missile concealment revealed. UNSCOM discovers and destroys undeclared decoy missiles and launch support equipment. (State)

August 2-8, 1991 UNSCOM uncovers a major Iraqi biological weapons program, including seed stocks of three biological warfare agents and three potential warfare strains. (State)

September 6-13, 1991 Iraq blocks UNSCOM's use of helicopters to conduct inspections. (State)

December 27, 1992 U.S. fighter planes shoot down an Iraqi aircraft violating southern "no fly zone."

January 1993 Iraq refuses to allow UNSCOM to use its own aircraft in Iraq. Also, Iraq begins incursions into the demilitarized zone with Kuwait, and increases its military activity in the no-fly zones. The U.N. Security Council states that Iraq's actions were an "unacceptable and material" breach of Resolution 687 and warns Iraq of "serious consequences." Shortly thereafter, the United States, UK, and France launch air raids on southern Iraq. On

June-July 1993 Iraq refuses to allow UNSCOM to install remote-controlled monitoring cameras at two missile engine test sites. The U.N. Security Council warns Iraq of serious consequences, and Iraq subsequently backs down.

October 6, 1994 Iraq threatens to cease cooperation with UNSCOM and the IAEA, and moves troops toward the border with Kuwait. (State)

April 6-7, 1995 A seminar of international biological weapons experts convened by UNSCOM concludes that Iraq has an undeclared full-scale biological weapons program. (State)

May 1-3, 1995 A seminar of international chemical weapons experts convened by UNSCOM concludes that Iraq has not adequately disclosed its past chemical weapons programs. (State)

July 1, 1995 As a result of UNSCOM's investigations, Iraq admits for the first time the existence of an offensive biological weapons program (but denies weaponization). (State)
 
November 1995 Jordan intercepts a large shipment of high-grade missile components headed for Iraq. UNSCOM conducts an investigation which confirms that Iraqi authorities and missile facilities have been involved in the acquisition of sophisticated guidance and control components for proscribed missiles. (State)

March 1996 UNSCOM teams are denied immediate access to five sites designated for inspection. The teams enter the sites after delays of up to 17 hours. On March 19, the U.N. Security Council issues a Presidential statement terming Iraq's behavior a clear violation of Iraq's obligations under relevant resolutions. (State)

June 12, 1996 U.N. Security Council Resolution 1060 terms Iraq's denial of access to UNSCOM teams a clear violation of the provisions of U.N. Security Council Resolutions. It also demands that Iraq grant immediate and unrestricted access to all sites designated for inspection by UNSCOM. (State)

October 16, 1996 In Geneva, the U.N. Compensation Committee rejects an Iraqi request to use revenues from the proposed oil sales under U.N. Security Council Resolution 986 to fund a legal defense against claims resulting from the 1991 Gulf War. Resolution 986 would allow Iraq to sell up to $1 billion worth of oil every six months. The deal originally was delayed by Iraq's incursion into the Kurdish safe haven zone in September 1996. More recently, the United States has requested time to review the pricing structure for the Iraqi oil sales, money from which must be used for humanitarian aid. (DJ)

February 12, 1997 A U.S. admiral headquartered in Bahrain reports that tankers are smuggling tens of thousands of tons of fuel oil out of Iraq in violation of United Nations' sanctions by reportedly skirting the shoals of Iran's coast, apparently with Iranian approval. (WSJ)

March 3, 1997 In its regular 60day review, the United Nations Security Council votes to maintain sanctions on Iraq. This is the 36th review since sanctions were first imposed in 1990. (DJ)

April 14, 1997 An Iraqi Oil Ministry official reports that Iraq expects to earn more than $80 billion from its contract with Russia for the development of the West Qurna oil field in southern Iraq. The contract, which was initialed in March and approved by Iraq's National Assembly on April 13, calls for 560 wells which will produce 4.4 billion barrels over 23 years. According to the official, the part of the field being developed with Russia has 11.5 billion barrels in reserves and the entire West Qurna field has reserves of 38 billion barrels. The official states that production will begin "soon" (initially about 250,000 barrels per day, increasing to 600,000 barrels per day). (DJ)


October 23, 1997 In response to Iraq's recent refusal to comply with U.N. arms inspections, the U.N. Security Council 1134 approves Resolution 1134 condemning Iraq's actions. Although the measure does not add new sanctions on Iraq, it expresses the Council's intentions of adopting travel restrictions on Iraqi military and intelligence officials if Iraq continues to inhibit U.N. arms inspections. The Resolution passed by a 10-0 vote with five abstentions. (DJ)

October 29, 1997
Iraq's Revolution Command Council, the country's main decision making body, announces that it will no longer allow U.S. citizens and U.S. aircraft to serve with the U.N. arms inspection teams. The council's statement gives U.S. citizens working with the inspection teams one week to leave Iraq. Iraq has also asked the U.N. to stop flights by American reconnaissance aircraft monitoring its compliance with U.N. Security Council Resolutions requiring the elimination of weapons of mass destruction. In response to this statement, the U.N. Security Council unanimously approves a statement condemning Iraq's threats to expel the Americans. (DJ)

November 12, 1997
The U.N. Security Council unanimously approves Resolution 1137 condemning Iraq for its decision to expel Americans from U.N. weapons inspection teams. The Council's measure imposes a travel ban on Iraqi officials who obstruct the inspection teams and expresses the firm intention to take further unspecified measures if Iraq continues to defy the U.N. (DJ)

November 18, 1997 Nizar Hamdoon, Iraq's U.N. representative, announces that Iraq will not continue the U.N.-sponsored "Oil-for-Food" sale unless the U.N. agrees to a specific date for lifting economic sanctions. Hamdoon indicates that Iraq will continue to participate in the current six-month phase of the "Oil-for-Food" sale, which runs through December 4, 1997. (DJ)

December 4, 1997 Iraq's U.N. Ambassador Nizar Hamdoon warns that Iraq will not allow oil to flow during a third six-month phase of the U.N.'s "Oil-for-Food" sale until the U.N. approves an aid distribution plan. Despite the warning, the U.N. Security Council approves a third six-month phase following the end of the second six-month phase. Like the first two phases, the third phase allows Iraq to sell up to $1.07 billion of oil in each of two 90-day periods. However, the sales level may be increased by the Security Council in January 1998 after U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan reports on Iraq's needs. (WP)

December 23, 1997 After changing one word, the U.N. Security Council agrees to a statement criticizing, but not condemning, Iraq for refusing to grant U.N. weapons inspectors full access to suspected weapons sites. Opposition from Russia and other council members prompted the wording change. The statement comes after chief weapons inspector Richard Butler told the Security Council that Iraq would not allow access to all suspected weapons sites, including Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's palaces and homes. (DJ)

March 2, 1998 The United Nations Security Council unanimously approves Resolution 1154 endorsing Secretary Kofi Annan's agreement with Iraq on weapons inspections which includes the controversial presidential palaces. The Resolution threatens any Iraqi violation of the agreement with the "severest consequences," but does not authorize an automatic military response. (NYT) (DJ)

April 28, 1998 Despite direct appeals for relief from Iraq's foreign minister and oil minister, the U.N. Security Council decides to continue economic sanctions on Iraq, imposed in 1990 following Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. The Security Council also announces that it will once again begin reviewing the sanctions every 60 days. The Council suspended 60-day reviews in October 1997 after Iraq expelled American members of U.N. weapons inspection teams. (DJ)

May 8, 1998 The U.N. Security Council accepts a recommendation to end a limited travel ban on some Iraqi government officials. The ban was approved on November 12, 1997 following Iraq's refusal to allow U.N. weapons inspectors access to eight "presidential palaces." In a letter to the Security Council, Richard Butler, chairman of the U.N. Special Commission, reported that Iraq has been granting weapons inspectors access to all sites and recommended termination of the travel ban. (DJ)


As anyone can tell he clearly see saddam cared for the starving and dying Iraqi people..:roll:


Now as for your claim of the US prohibiting supplies from entering Iraq the only site I could find the story was here. An anti US site.
Revolutionary Worker
#1132, December 23, 2001,
posted at Revolution #90, May 27, 2007

I did find this and maybe its what started the story.

July 1, 1996 The United States rejects an Iraqi plan for distributing food and medicine under United Nations Security Council Resolution 986, on the grounds that it would allow Saddam Hussein's government to evade certain sanctions as well as to give it control over distribution of supplies to separatist Kurds in northern Iraq. Resolution 986 would allow Iraq to sell $1 billion worth of oil every 90 days for an initial period of 6 months.

July 18, 1996 The United Nations formally approves an Iraqi aid distribution plan, a major step forward in the direction of allowing Iraq to sell oil under Security Council Resolution 986.

August 8, 1996 The United States withdraws its opposition to United Nations Security Council Resolution 986, which would allow Iraq to sell $1 billion worth of oil every 90 days for an initial period of 6 months. Under the plan, proceeds from the oil sales would be used for humanitarian purposes. In recent days, the United States had been the only nation on the 15-member U.N. Security Council to oppose the plan. It had done so ostensibly to ensure proper monitoring procedures were in place to allow for the equitable distribution of humanitarian supplies to civilians.
 
One of the organizations to which I donate is "Spirit of America", an organization that supports the efforts of our troops around the globe whose duty it is to prevent conflict, promote regional stability and protect coalition interests in order to prevail against extremism. Here is an excerpt from a recent e-mail update that illustrates the kinds of activities SpiritofAmerica is supporting:

AFGHAN FARMERS UPDATE
WOW! What a response! Due to your overwhelming show of support, we're already well underway. Check our progress on the Afghan Project Page, we'll be updating it regularly. The Sergeant Major's response when told that we had raised $13k in the first five hours: "I didn't expect the project to be such a big hit. I am really pleasantly surprised that the project has raised so much already!"

MULTIPLE SUCCESS STORIES REPORTED IN HORN OF AFRICA
Army Staff Sergeant Kristopher Hesselbrock's request for help in the Djibouti area was fulfilled and shipped back in March. We were concerned when he was unexpectedly transferred while our 50 boxes of dental hygiene kits, school supplies, soccer balls, beanie babies were in transit. Fortunately, they were forwarded to his new location in Kenya.

SSG Hesselbrock really spread the "good will" around, by handing out the supplies to several locations in Kenya. To start, soccer balls were given to the Lamu Boys Secondary school, (equivalent to a US High School). The headmaster plans on giving them as a reward for hard work and to the students assisting the soldiers in making repairs to their structures. In addition, his team distributed school bags with supplies and dental hygiene kits to the orphans at the AMA Primary School and school supplies to the Lamu Special School for physically handicapped children.

Kenyan school children with the supply filled backpacks from Spirit of America.

The best story was the delivery of soccer balls to the Lake Kenyatta Primary School. A school designed for roughly 400 students but maintains a student population of 900+ (daily). Hard to believe, but there has been only one soccer ball for the last two years! A soccer ball cost roughly $46USD each!

SSG Hesselback reports "the children almost seemed to 'riot' when the head teacher began to pass out the balls. He of course regained order and afterwards played with the children before collecting the balls and securing them for the athletic program".

This is real grass roots support.

Cheers, Eagle1
 
No whether or not I believe your report, yes I have a problem with reports such as this one that uses surveys instead of seeking the actual death certificates.

That's a cop out. If you at least looked at the report you would find out how accurate it actually is; that is, unless you're going to completely reject statistical analysis.

How does any of it matter? Saddam had the power to put an end to the sanctions the entire time.

Let me again quote from the von Sponeck interview:

"LE: You were commenting earlier in the evening that U.S. has continuously moved the “goal posts” on Iraq -- in other words, expanded the list of demands that Iraq must fulfil before sanctions can be lifted. Could you expand on that?

HvS: Well, goal posts have continuously been shifted. Initially, sanctions were imposed because Iraq had occupied Kuwait. When Iraq vacated Kuwait, it became an issue of disarmament. And then you had to deal with resolutions that were so intangible, so loosely defined – for examples, phrases like ‘Iraq before sanctions can be lifted must have cooperated in all respects.’ What does “in all respects” mean? It’s very open to interpretation and therefore to prolongation of sanctions if you have in mind to keep your thumb on Iraq. And this is what we have seen. So the looseness of international sanctions law, plus poorly worded resolutions -- or to paraphrase the U.S. government, resolutions with “constructive ambiguity;” I’m sorry, ambiguity yes, constructive I’m not so sure -- have facilitated this whole 11 year drama involving the Iraqi people."

In the end US officials were openly stating that no matter what the Iraq administration does, the sanctions will remain. As early as 1991 then Secretary of State James Baker stated “We are not interested in seeking a relaxation of sanctions as long as Saddam Hussein is in power.” President Clinton stated in November 1997 that “sanctions will be there until the end of time, or as long as he [Saddam Hussein] lasts.”

Now you stated the sanctions prevented medical supplies. That’s a bold face lie and you know it. Allow me, Please pay close attention to the type in BOLD...

(c) The sale or supply by their nationals or from their territories or using their flag vessels of any commodities or products, including weapons or any other military equipment, whether or not originating in their territories but not including supplies intended strictly for medical purposes, and, in humanitarian circumstances, foodstuffs, to any person or body in Iraq or Kuwait or to any person or body for the purposes of any business carried on in or operated from Iraq or Kuwait, and any activities by their nationals or in their territories which promote or are calculated to promote such sale or supply of such commodities or products;

The veto of these items was based on intent. These were the famous "dual-use" vetoes. All that had to be done to get around this was to claim that the intent for these goods wasn't humanitarian. For example, I remember that vaccinations were vetoed because it was argued that the Iraqi administration could develop these into biological weapons; this was blatantly untrue, because of the fact that it's impossible to do such a thing, but that's beside the point, as it was vetoed anyways.

From the Associated Press:
"The U.N. sanctions committee for Iraq, composed of the 15 members of the Security Council, reviews contracts for the supplies, but any member can place a contract on ``hold'' at any time for any reason.

Of the $1.78 billion worth of contracts in limbo, the United States is responsible for more than 75 percent, with Britain making up the rest, a U.N. official said.

Most of the disputed contracts are for equipment to improve Iraq's dilapidated oil industry, power grid and water sanitation infrastructure."

From this article (Joy Gordon is professor of philosophy at Fairfield University and spent three years researching the effects of the UN sanctions programs on Iraq.):
"Nearly everything for Iraq's entire infrastructure—electricity, roads, telephones, water treatment—as well as much of the equipment and supplies related to food and medicine has been subject to Security Council review. In practice, this has meant that the United States and Britain subjected hundreds of contracts to elaborate scrutiny, without the involvement of any other country on the council; and after that scrutiny, the United States, only occasionally seconded by Britain, consistently blocked or delayed hundreds of humanitarian contracts.

In response to U.S. demands, the U.N. worked with suppliers to provide the United States with detailed information about the goods and how they would be used, and repeatedly expanded its monitoring system, tracking each item from contracting through delivery and installation, ensuring that the imports are used for legitimate civilian purposes. Despite all these measures, U.S. holds actually increased. In September 2001 nearly one third of water and sanitation and one quarter of electricity and educational—supply contracts were on hold. Between the springs of 2000 and 2002, for example, holds on humanitarian goods tripled.

Among the goods that the United States blocked last winter: dialysis, dental, and fire—fighting equipment, water tankers, milk and yogurt production equipment, printing equipment for schools. The United States even blocked a contract for agricultural—bagging equipment, insisting that the U.N. first obtain documentation to “confirm that the 'manual' placement of bags around filling spouts is indeed a person placing the bag on the spout.

...

A couple of months later, a Syrian company asked the committee to approve a contract to mill flour for Iraq. Whereas Iraq ordinarily purchased food directly, in this case it was growing wheat but did not have adequate facilities to produce flour. The Russian delegate argued that, in light of the report the committee had received from the UNICEF official, and the fact that flour was an essential element of the Iraqi diet, the committee had no choice but to approve the request on humanitarian grounds. The delegate from China agreed, as did those from France and Argentina. But the U.S. representative, Eugene Young, argued that “there should be no hurry” to move on this request: the flour requirement under Security Council Resolution 986 had been met, he said; the number of holds on contracts for milling equipment was “relatively low”; and the committee should wait for the results of a study being conducted by the World Food Programme first. Ironically, he also argued against the flour—milling contract on the grounds that “the focus should be on capacity—building within the country”—even though that represented a stark reversal of U.S. policy, which consistently opposed any form of economic development within Iraq. The British delegate stalled as well, saying that he would need to see “how the request would fit into the Iraqi food programme,” and that there were still questions about transport and insurance. In the end, despite the extreme malnutrition of which the committee was aware, the U.S. delegate insisted it would be “premature” to grant the request for flour production, and the U.K. representative joined him, blocking the project from going forward."

I could go on listing more sources and more items vetoed but I think that's sufficient enough.

Now as for your claim of the US prohibiting supplies from entering Iraq the only site I could find the story was here. An anti US site.

Interesting, considering the fact that I've found numerous authoritative sources on this issue. I quoted von Sponeck again below pertaining to this issue.

As for your claims regarding the Oil for Food program, that was a huge mess. I'll quote wikipedia here, since it's the most convenient source:

The Oil-for-Food Programme started in December 1996, and the first shipments of food arrived in March 1997. Some 60 percent of Iraq's 26 million people were solely dependent on rations from the oil-for-food plan.

The program used an escrow system: oil exported from Iraq was paid for by the recipient into an escrow account possessed until 2001 by BNP Paribas bank, rather than to the Iraqi government (Anglo-Iraqi billionaire Nadhmi Auchi is BNP Paribas' major single shareholder through his firm General Mediterranean Holdings). The money was then apportioned to pay for war reparations to Kuwait and ongoing coalition and United Nations operations within Iraq, with the remainder (and majority of the revenue) available to the Iraqi government for use in purchasing regulated items.

The Iraqi government was then permitted to purchase items that were not embargoed under the economic sanctions. Certain items, such as raw foodstuffs, were expedited for immediate shipment, but requests for most items, including such simple things as pencils and folic acid, were reviewed in a process that typically took about six months before shipment was authorised. Items deemed to have any potential application in chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons systems development were not available to the regime, regardless of what their stated purpose was.
 
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