Why there was a sexual revolution and why it is a good thing

[Hard Truth]

Things weren't peachy before the 1960s sexually.

Teenagers and others still had unintentional pregnancies. Often pregnant girls and their male partners were routinely forced into shotgun marriages which were usually unhappy affairs, often resulting in physical abuse. Often pregnant girls had to leave town to stay with relatives or live in a home for unwed mothers until giving birth. Sometimes those unwed mothers and/or their children were were forced into virtual slavery. Keeping the baby was rarely an option for an unwed mother, either it was given up to live in an orphanage or, if the child was very lucky, it would be adopted. Sometimes the grandmothers pretended to be the mothers to protect their daughters reputation from those who would judge and shun her as a social pariah. The other option for a pregnant girl was an illegal abortion, often performed by people with no other medical training and resulting in the girl's death, sterility or other permanent injury.

Especially in the late 1800s and early 1900s, orphanages were overwhelmed and unprepared to care for infants and thousands died from neglect.* Many poor and abandoned children roamed the streets of the cities living as beggars, prostitutes and thieves.

Without access to contraceptives most women had no choice but to have many children, which ravaged their bodies and limited their life options to just one: full-time mother and housewife if she was with a prosperous man, or full-time mother, housewife and full-time worker if she wasn't lucky in marriage. The burden of a lifetime of non-stop child rearing kept all women except for the ones who could afford servants from being involved in activities outside the home or work place. This kept ordinary women from fully participating in society and culture and insured that they had no voice politically.

The myth that people were more controlled and virtuous in the past are contradicted by the abundance of houses of prostitution and the common practice of more affluent men having a kept mistress.*2 The large number of African-Americans in the USA with light skin and prominent European names (i.e Washington, Jefferson etc.), along with DNA analyses indicates that a lot of men were raping or having affairs with their slaves and servants. Women also had affairs, often with their servants also.

"Respectable" middle and upper class women were forced to wear debilitating clothes designed to protect their virtue and reputations by covering most of their bodies, yet they were also expected to put themselves on display sexually with uncomfortable corsets and cleavage enhancing undergarments. The Victorians were so neurotic about sex that they even covered table legs to avoid offending anyone or enticing sexual passions.

Gays and others with unconventional sexual interests had to live with constant fear and secrecy to avoid arrest, murder or the mere destruction of their careers and reputations if they were lucky.

*"There is an increasing body of evidence that orphanages, especially large orphanages, are the worst possible care option for children.[13][14] In large institutions all children, but particularly babies may not receive enough eye contact, physical contact, and stimulation to promote proper physical, social or cognitive development.[15][16] In the worst cases, orphanages can be dangerous and unregulated places where children are subject to abuse and neglect."
Orphanage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


*2 A mistress is a long-term female lover and companion who is not married to her partner; the term is used especially when her partner is married. The relationship generally is stable and at least semi-permanent; however, the couple does not live together openly. Also the relationship is usually, but not always, secret. There is an implication that a mistress may be "kept"—i.e., that the lover is paying for some of the woman's living expenses....A mistress is not a prostitute: while a mistress, if "kept", may, in some sense, be exchanging sex for money, the principal difference is that a mistress has sex with fewer men and there is not so much of a direct quid pro quo between the money and the sex act. Mistress (lover) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Hard Truth]

Technical advances were the main driver of changes in sexual attitudes and practices. Advances in medicine have drastically reduced infant deaths, so more children live to adulthood and most will have longer lifespans than previously. Another technology related change is the reduction in need for farm workers, and with the growth of industry, more job opportunities in the cities. These two changes resulted in much less reason for a couple to keep having children since the children are more likely to live to adulthood and they are not the asset to the family farm that they may have been in the past. That created a greater demand for birth control, a demand that medical technology met, with several new technologies (i.e. the pill) and refinements of older techniques (better condoms). In addition most STDs became treatable and a mere hassle rather than a death sentence. Yet another factor is the increased ease of transportation and the development of mass media. The growth of cities and better transportation made it easier for people to find sex partners that they are not related to, and less likely to be destroyed by small town rumor mongers.

In addition, better science and statistical research revealed the hidden truths about human sexuality. Specifically, it revealed that women were capable of enjoying sex if they and/or her partner know what to do and it also revealed that more people were having more different types of sex than previously thought. These revelations increased the number of people who wanted to have sex (women in particular) and helped people with desires once considered unusual and perverse to be more open about their sexual interests. Finally, the knowledge obtained from science made people more skeptical about the sexual taboos once upheld and enforced by religion and superstition.

Some people took advantage of this new information and technology and proceeded to enjoy sex in ways that were not possible before and did so without significant consequences. Some others made mistakes and/or acted ignorantly and suffered serious consequences, but they were a relatively small minority. Other people, acted as if nothing had changed in the last 130 years and clung to the old fears, superstitions and taboos. They are known as cultural conservatives. A good chunk of them don't act in accord with their beliefs, yet still hold or advocate the beliefs. They are known as hypocrites.

Summary of technological changes impacting sexual behavior

• Reduced infant mortality, reducing the need for large families
• Longer life spans, reducing the need for large families
• Reduction in demand for farm workers due to labor saving machinery, reducing the need for large families
• Growth in industry resulting in people leaving farms and small towns and moving to cities
• World wars exposing soldiers to other cultures.
• Improved long distance communication and growth of mass media exposing people to other cultures, more diverse opinions and more information
• Improved transportation providing people with more mobility and access to more diverse partners
• Development of effective treatments for most sexually transmitted diseases
• Development of effective birth control, especially the pill
• Research and statistics revealing hidden truths about actual human sexual behavior, resulting in greater acceptance of sexual diversity
• Better understanding of the human body and human sexual response
• Reduction in the power of religion and superstition to control people's thoughts and actions due to the growth of scientific knowledge


Although we need more responsible behavior from some people (which more accurate and comprehensive sex education will make more likely) so that people can enjoy their recently won sexual freedom responsibly, going back to the old days is not a desirable option for anyone who respects the rights of women and everyone who doesn't want to be forced into parenthood and marriage because they want to have sex. Today's level of knowledge and technology enables us to have more choices, and most of us are better off as a result.

We can't stop people from having sex, all we can do is drive it underground. Based on the evidence from the history of the Victorian and other eras, as well as the practices currently used to control sexuality in places like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan, returning to the days before the changes associated with the sexual revolution will likely result in:

• "repectable" women who can not afford servants becoming full-time baby makers and housewives,
• a return to murdering, harassing, arresting and imprisoning sexual "deviants"
• an increase in abandoned and unwanted children.
• Women forced to dress modestly with clothing covering most their bodies at all times
• Women losing most of their freedom of association and movement and opportunity to fully participate in society
• A return to censorship of sexual information and entertainment, resulting in more sexual ignorance and intolerance and less satisfying intimate relationships
• An increase in illegal abortions and the resulting deaths and injuries
• Forced marriages
• Increased prostitution and keeping of mistresses
• Deaths and disabilities from untreated STDs
• Honor killings
• More acceptance of rape of "fallen" women, children and other vulnerable people

 

[Gathomas88]

Teenagers and others still had unintentional pregnancies. Often pregnant girls and their male partners were routinely forced into shotgun marriages which were usually unhappy affairs, often resulting in physical abuse.

The rates involved were no where near what they are today. Frankly, even if "shotgun" weddings were involved in some cases, so what?

That doesn't mean much of anything in and of itself. Many of the couples who ran afoul of the problem likely would've wound up marrying anyway, and, as you have noted, marriage wasn't necessarily a foregone conclusion if a couple didn't want it anyway.

This was the case with my own grandparents. They dated for five years in high school, and if one looks at the dates involved, clearly got pregnant several months before their wedding. They remained happily married for well over fifty years anyway regardless, and, other than the occasional spat, there was no domestic abuse involved at all.

They also maintained a respectable middle class standard of living during the entirety of their marriage, which put all of their seven children through college.

Without access to contraceptives most women had no choice but to have many children, which ravaged their bodies and limited their life options to just one: full-time mother and housewife if she was with a prosperous man, or full-time mother, housewife and full-time worker if she wasn't lucky in marriage. The burden of a lifetime of non-stop child rearing kept all women except for the ones who could afford servants from being involved in activities outside the home or work place. This kept ordinary women from fully participating in society and culture and insured that they had no voice politically.

Women cannot embrace motherhood and careers at the same time?

The female CEOs of America apparently disagree.

Most Big-Company Women CEOs Are Also Mothers, Book Finds

Especially in the late 1800s and early 1900s, orphanages were overwhelmed and unprepared to care for infants and thousands died from neglect.* Many poor and abandoned children roamed the streets of the cities living as beggars, prostitutes and thieves.

None of that was still the case by the 1950s.

The myth that people were more controlled and virtuous in the past are contradicted by the abundance of houses of prostitution and the common practice of more affluent men having a kept mistress.*2

All of this behavior would have been limited to certain segments of the population. It was generally not the society wide pastime that it is today.

One need only look at how STD rates and the average numbers of sexual partners per person have spiked in the decades since the Sexual Revolution to see that sexual behavior has, in fact, changed for the worse since the 1960s.

"Respectable" middle and upper class women were forced to wear debilitating clothes designed to protect their virtue and reputations by covering most of their bodies, yet they were also expected to put themselves on display sexually with uncomfortable corsets and cleavage enhancing undergarments.

And things are any better in this regard today?

How many young women do you see parading around in short shorts and flip flops in 20 degree weather? How many women still wear uncomfortable high heels and boots in the name of fashion? How many ads blatantly objectifying the female form do you see in the mainstream media on a daily basis?

Technical advances were the main driver of changes in sexual attitudes and practices. Advances in medicine have drastically reduced infant deaths, so more children live to adulthood and most will have longer lifespans than previously. Another technology related change is the reduction in need for farm workers, and with the growth of industry, more job opportunities in the cities. These two changes resulted in much less reason for a couple to keep having children since the children are more likely to live to adulthood and they are not the asset to the family farm that they may have been in the past.

And yet, now we are facing the opposite problem. Birth rates in much of the Western World are no longer high enough to keep our populations stable.

As Germany and Japan's current situations attest, this creates economic, social, and political problems all its own.

In addition most STDs became treatable and a mere hassle rather than a death sentence

The proliferation of incurable STDs like HIV and HSV in recent decades would seem to indicate otherwise.

Treatment of these conditions cost taxpayers billions (roughly 16, as a matter of fact) of dollars in excess medical expenses each year.

Some people took advantage of this new information and technology and proceeded to enjoy sex in ways that were not possible before and did so without significant consequences

There is an overwhelming abundance of evidence to suggest that the vast majority of people (and women in particular) do not even enjoy the casual sexuality our society pressures them into pursuing, and would be better off simply sticking to more traditional attitudes.

In Hookups, Inequality Still Reigns

89% of College Students Hate Hook Up Culture

Only Some others made mistakes and/or acted ignorantly and suffered serious consequences, but they were a relatively small minority

The fact that 20 million new STD infections are reported in the US each year, 1 out of every 2 sexually active persons in the US will likely catch an STD before the age of 25, and that 40% of all new mothers in the United States (climbing up to 70% for women under 30) have never married would seem to indicate otherwise.

Did I mention that almost half of these women and their children live in poverty, or rely upon government assistance to get by?

We can't stop people from having sex, all we can do is drive it underground.

Across the board, things functioned better when sexuality was socially restricted, rather than fully embraced as it is today.

Based on the evidence from the history of the Victorian and other eras, as well as the practices currently used to control sexuality in places like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan:

Strawman and red herring. The Victorian era and the Middle East are all completely irrelevant to anything taking place in the modern West, or what Social Conservatives propose.

Name a single mainstream social conservative who supports "honor killings." :roll:

 

[Tigger]

Things weren't peachy before the 1960s sexually.

Whether they were or not (I'd probably suggest they wre less horrific than your post suggests) doesn't mean that we had to flip the entire paradigm on its head. We went from the 1950's, where sex was predominantly a private thing to the current system where you can't turn around in a public place without being bombarded by it. I'm not going to claim that things were pefect in the sexual world prior to the 1960's, but I do believe we've gone way too far in the other direction over the past 50 years. Personally, I believe there were more than simply sexual reasons behind that.... mostly having to do with the women's liberation movement, but that's probably a topic for a different thread.

 

[Tigger]

We can't stop people from having sex, all we can do is drive it underground. Based on the evidence from the history of the Victorian and other eras, as well as the practices currently used to control sexuality in places like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan, returning to the days before the changes associated with the sexual revolution will likely result in:

Why does it have to be all one or all the other? I would suggest that we could advance from the 1950's mentality in some places, but remain there or even take a step back in others, as I'll describe below.....

1. "repectable" women who can not afford servants becoming full-time baby makers and housewives,
2. a return to murdering, harassing, arresting and imprisoning sexual "deviants"
3. an increase in abandoned and unwanted children.
4. Women forced to dress modestly with clothing covering most their bodies at all times
5. Women losing most of their freedom of association and movement and opportunity to fully participate in society
6. A return to censorship of sexual information and entertainment, resulting in more sexual ignorance and intolerance and less satisfying intimate relationships
7. An increase in illegal abortions and the resulting deaths and injuries
8. Forced marriages
9. Increased prostitution and keeping of mistresses
10. Deaths and disabilities from untreated STDs
11. Honor killings
12. More acceptance of rape of "fallen" women, children and other vulnerable people

1. A woman's proper place will always be in the home, as a housewife and mother. So long as she and her husband are fine with whatever arrangement they make for supporting their kids, I understand that many of them will take on jobs. It's when they whine about how they can't have their cake and eat it too that I get annoyed.

2. Sex should be mostly a private thing. So long as these "deviant acts" are undertaken in a private setting with consenting adults, there's no problem. However, when they decide they have to show off in public, then there's an issue because they are forcing their interests onto society at large.

3. Contraception is fine. Just don't expect everyone else to pay for your condoms/pills/etc... and don't expect that it's a 100% guaranteed cure-all for the potential consequence of sexual activity.... pregnancy.

4. There's a middle ground between the nun's habit/burkha and the micro-miniskirt with no underwear and a top that leaves nothing to the imagination. A little bit of education about self-respect would go a long way in fixing that issue, and some basic societal standards should cover the rest. Again, what you wear in private is nobody's business, but in a public space keep it reasonable.

5. I don't think anyone (even me) is suggesting going all the way back to the Islamic ideal that a woman can't be seen in public without a male escort. That wasn't even the expectation here in the US during the 1950's.

6. There's a middle ground between an Adult bookstore on every corner and total non-existance of the material. I think the bigger issue is simply making sure that young people don't have access to most of the more hardcore material until they are at a point in their life where it is relevant to them and they are mature enough to understand what to do with it.

7. That's a societal issue that will never go away, regardless of what changes in society.

8. I think this goes back to my comments about #5. Nobody that I know of is talking about going back to forced marriage, arranged marriage or anything of that sort. I would like to think that there would be a societal suggestion that if you've made a child together that you both need to be there to suppor the child, but that's not the same thing.

9. Prostitution has always existed and always will exist. I wouldn't mind seeing it legalized, in a secure, safe, and controlled environment where everyone's interests can be maintained. Unfortunately infidelity is an issue that has always and will always exist as well, and there's little anyone can do about it.

10. Considering the major advances in our medical system over even just the last 50 years, this should be less of an issue.

11. Again, I don't know of anyone (even me) who is suggesting we move to a Sharia Law society. I would, however, like to see infidelity treated as a little more important subject in our divorce law, but that's a different topic.

12. Again, since we're not headed to a Sharia Law society, I don't believe that's as much of an issue as you suggest. Of course these people do need to come forward and report these horrific crimes, and they should be treated with due importance when they are.

 

[Logicman]

Here's why it's NOT a good thing:

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

 

[Tigger]

Here's why it's NOT a good thing:

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Just realize that not everyone in this country runs their lives according to your Book.

 

[Logicman]

Just realize that not everyone in this country runs their lives according to your Book.

Just realize that not everyone in this country runs their lives according to your hedonistic philosophies.

 

[Tigger]

Just realize that not everyone in this country runs their lives according to your hedonistic philosophies.

I fully realize that not everyone ignores your Book either. My maternal grandfather was a minister for more than 60 years. I also believe that one can (and in my case does) live a decent lifestyle without believing in your Book; just as there are many people who follow/claim to follow your Book who I don't believe are good people either.

 

[Logicman]

I fully realize that not everyone ignores your Book either. My maternal grandfather was a minister for more than 60 years. I also believe that one can (and in my case does) live a decent lifestyle without believing in your Book; just as there are many people who follow/claim to follow your Book who I don't believe are good people either.

Like the Bible says, "ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." That would include those who believe they are "good" or are living "decent lives." What's "good and decent" in man's eyes in not always so in God's eyes.

 

[Tigger]

Like the Bible says, "ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." That would include those who believe they are "good" or are living "decent lives." What's "good and decent" in man's eyes in not always so in God's eyes.

Let's not turn this thread totally into a religious discussion. There's a different part of this forum for that. I will leave it at this.... I've tried it both ways, and found one much more wanting than the other. In a dozen years of seeking out my own Spiritual Road, I've found much greater emotional and Spiritual value than in more than two dozen years as a Christian.

One does not need to be a Christian to lead a properly moral life, sexually and otherwise. I learned that from my own experiences. Just as I find many "Christians" who are among the most sexually immoral people I've ever met.

 

[Hard Truth]

The rates involved were no where near what they are today. Frankly, even if "shotgun" weddings were involved in some cases, so what?

That doesn't mean much of anything in and of itself. Many of the couples who ran afoul of the problem likely would've wound up marrying anyway, and, as you have noted, marriage wasn't necessarily a foregone conclusion if a couple didn't want it anyway.

This was the case with my own grandparents. They dated for five years in high school, and if one looks at the dates involved, clearly got pregnant several months before their wedding. They remained happily married for well over fifty years anyway regardless, and, other than the occasional spat, there was no domestic abuse involved at all.

They also maintained a respectable middle class standard of living during the entirety of their marriage, which put all of their seven children through college.



1. Women cannot embrace motherhood and careers at the same time?

The female CEOs of America apparently disagree.

Most Big-Company Women CEOs Are Also Mothers, Book Finds



None of that was still the case by the 1950s.



2. All of this behavior would have been limited to certain segments of the population. It was generally not the society wide pastime that it is today.

One need only look at how STD rates and the average numbers of sexual partners per person have spiked in the decades since the Sexual Revolution to see that sexual behavior has, in fact, changed for the worse since the 1960s.



And things are any better in this regard today?

3.How many young women do you see parading around in short shorts and flip flops in 20 degree weather? How many women still wear uncomfortable high heels and boots in the name of fashion? How many ads blatantly objectifying the female form do you see in the mainstream media on a daily basis?



4. And yet, now we are facing the opposite problem. Birth rates in much of the Western World are no longer high enough to keep our populations stable.

As Germany and Japan's current situations attest, this creates economic, social, and political problems all its own.



The proliferation of incurable STDs like HIV and HSV in recent decades would seem to indicate otherwise.

Treatment of these conditions cost taxpayers billions (roughly 16, as a matter of fact) of dollars in excess medical expenses each year.



5. There is an overwhelming abundance of evidence to suggest that the vast majority of people (and women in particular) do not even enjoy the casual sexuality our society pressures them into pursuing, and would be better off simply sticking to more traditional attitudes.

In Hookups, Inequality Still Reigns

89% of College Students Hate Hook Up Culture



The fact that 20 million new STD infections are reported in the US each year, 1 out of every 2 sexually active persons in the US will likely catch an STD before the age of 25, and that 40% of all new mothers in the United States (climbing up to 70% for women under 30) have never married would seem to indicate otherwise.

Did I mention that almost half of these women and their children live in poverty, or rely upon government assistance to get by?



Across the board, things functioned better when sexuality was socially restricted, rather than fully embraced as it is today.



6. Strawman and red herring. The Victorian era and the Middle East are all completely irrelevant to anything taking place in the modern West, or what Social Conservatives propose.

Name a single mainstream social conservative who supports "honor killings." :roll:

1. Women with only a couple of children, and women who can afford paid childcare can have successful careers. Without access to contraceptives women would have more children and the ones who could not afford child care would be unlikely to have a good career.

2. The Kinsey reports shocked the nation because they revealed that was a lot more diverse sexual activity than realized before. Subsequent research has shown that the image of completely monogamous couples in the past was not accurate.

3. Yes, advertising and media encourage young women to wear clothes that are not practical. However, they still have a choice and many women reject these images and wear what they want. In the past, women did not have that freedom of choice. I strongly support teaching media literacy in the K-12 schools to help make people more immune to the influence of advertising and other media influence.

4. If birth rates are down in some countries it is because people now have freedom of choice. Those areas are also the most prosperous. The world is far from having a population shortage, the population continues to rise and there is still hunger and poverty in many parts of the world . Regions with a population shortage can allow more immigration to address the issue.

5. People now have choices. No one is forced into any kind of lifestyle. People are now free to choose how they live, for example there has been no government repression or violence from the public directed towards the abstinence movement. That was not true in the past, when one could be imprisoned or killed for harmless sexual behavior.

6. The Catholic Church and others would like to ban all contraceptives. Many conservative politicians have tried to ban nearly all sexually oriented media and people have been imprisoned for obscenity within the last ten years. The FCC has levied huge fines on broadcasters for allowing taboo words (fleeting expletives) or flashes of body parts (Janet Jackson Superbowl incident) on air at the wrong time due to pressure from social conservatives. Many conservatives blame campus rape victims for getting raped and labeled an advocate of contraceptive access a slut. Conservatives have also advocated for mandatory dress codes in schools. So far, they have not advocated for dress codes for adults or for honor killings, but in most other regards the cultural conservative policies are the same as the policies of the Victorian era and fundamentalist Muslim countries.

 

[Hard Truth]

Just realize that not everyone in this country runs their lives according to your hedonistic philosophies.

I support a system that allows people to live as they choose as long as they don't harm anyone. We can have religious anti-hedonists and hedonists live together peacefully as long as both mind their own business.

 

[Logicman]

I support a system that allows people to live as they choose as long as they don't harm anyone. We can have religious anti-hedonists and hedonists live together peacefully as long as both mind their own business.

That's fine. On the other hand I suspect some of the folks in Sodom and Gomorrah had a similar view.

 

[Hard Truth]

Why does it have to be all one or all the other? I would suggest that we could advance from the 1950's mentality in some places, but remain there or even take a step back in others, as I'll describe below.....



1. A woman's proper place will always be in the home, as a housewife and mother. So long as she and her husband are fine with whatever arrangement they make for supporting their kids, I understand that many of them will take on jobs. It's when they whine about how they can't have their cake and eat it too that I get annoyed.

2. Sex should be mostly a private thing. So long as these "deviant acts" are undertaken in a private setting with consenting adults, there's no problem. However, when they decide they have to show off in public, then there's an issue because they are forcing their interests onto society at large.

3. Contraception is fine. Just don't expect everyone else to pay for your condoms/pills/etc... and don't expect that it's a 100% guaranteed cure-all for the potential consequence of sexual activity.... pregnancy.

4. There's a middle ground between the nun's habit/burkha and the micro-miniskirt with no underwear and a top that leaves nothing to the imagination. A little bit of education about self-respect would go a long way in fixing that issue, and some basic societal standards should cover the rest. Again, what you wear in private is nobody's business, but in a public space keep it reasonable.

5. I don't think anyone (even me) is suggesting going all the way back to the Islamic ideal that a woman can't be seen in public without a male escort. That wasn't even the expectation here in the US during the 1950's.

6. There's a middle ground between an Adult bookstore on every corner and total non-existance of the material. I think the bigger issue is simply making sure that young people don't have access to most of the more hardcore material until they are at a point in their life where it is relevant to them and they are mature enough to understand what to do with it.

7. That's a societal issue that will never go away, regardless of what changes in society.

8. I think this goes back to my comments about #5. Nobody that I know of is talking about going back to forced marriage, arranged marriage or anything of that sort. I would like to think that there would be a societal suggestion that if you've made a child together that you both need to be there to support the child, but that's not the same thing.

9. Prostitution has always existed and always will exist. I wouldn't mind seeing it legalized, in a secure, safe, and controlled environment where everyone's interests can be maintained. Unfortunately infidelity is an issue that has always and will always exist as well, and there's little anyone can do about it.

10. Considering the major advances in our medical system over even just the last 50 years, this should be less of an issue.

11. Again, I don't know of anyone (even me) who is suggesting we move to a Sharia Law society. I would, however, like to see infidelity treated as a little more important subject in our divorce law, but that's a different topic.

12. Again, since we're not headed to a Sharia Law society, I don't believe that's as much of an issue as you suggest. Of course these people do need to come forward and report these horrific crimes, and they should be treated with due importance when they are.

1. I believe all of us should have freedom of choice as to our role in the family, although I agree that people should live up to their commitments and responsibilities.

2. I agree that sex itself should be done in private or amongst other consenting adults only. I don't know of anyone else who feels otherwise. That does not mean that people should not be free to express themselves, including their sexual selves, with clothing, buttons, signs etc.

3. Some forms of birth control require working with a physician. I believe it is in society's interest to make those forms of contraception accessible to everyone, which is why I support subsidies as needed for the poor.

4. I strongly advocate for media literacy in K-12 schools so that people understand the powerful incluence of advertising and other media and are able to think for themselves.

5. Good. That's progress.

6. We don't have sex shops on every corner under current laws, which in practice, are becoming more tolerant as they should. I have no problem with restricting minor's access to sexually explicit content.

7. Fatalities of pregnant women from abortions do not happen when it is legal.

8. I agree that more people should prioritize their children's welfare and should be made to pay for their support.

9. Agreed.

10. Agreed, and comprehensive fact-based sex education in the schools is proven to reduce unintended pregnancies and STDs.

11 & 12. Thanks to better education, openness in the media and the social and legal progress advocated by liberals I don't see Sharia-like laws happening in the USA anytime soon. However, vigilance is necessary on these issues because advocates of sexually oppressive policies are still out there and they re-emerge with regularity.

The Catholic Church and others would like to ban all contraceptives. Many conservative politicians have tried to ban nearly all sexually oriented media and people have been imprisoned for obscenity within the last ten years. The FCC has levied huge fines on broadcasters for allowing taboo words (fleeting expletives) or flashes of body parts (Janet Jackson Superbowl incident) on air at the wrong time due to pressure from social conservatives. Many conservatives blame campus rape victims for getting raped and labeled an advocate of contraceptive access a slut. Conservatives have also advocated for mandatory dress codes in schools. So far, they have not advocated for dress codes for adults or for honor killings, but in most other regards the cultural conservative policies are the same as the policies of the Victorian era and fundamentalist Muslim countries.

 

[sangha]

Since some cling to the notion tha STD's are more common than in the 60's and 70's, I post this chart

Note how the rate is now lower than it was in 1966 and if it weren't for the increases in Chlamydia and Herpes (two STD's where the symptoms are often subtle to non-existent and come and go) the decrease in STD rates would be even much lower.

 

[Tigger]

1. I believe all of us should have freedom of choice as to our role in the family, although I agree that people should live up to their commitments and responsibilities.

2. I agree that sex itself should be done in private or amongst other consenting adults only. I don't know of anyone else who feels otherwise. That does not mean that people should not be free to express themselves, including their sexual selves, with clothing, buttons, signs etc.

3. Some forms of birth control require working with a physician. I believe it is in society's interest to make those forms of contraception accessible to everyone, which is why I support subsidies as needed for the poor.

4. I strongly advocate for media literacy in K-12 schools so that people understand the powerful incluence of advertising and other media and are able to think for themselves.

5. Good. That's progress.

6. We don't have sex shops on every corner under current laws, which in practice, are becoming more tolerant as they should. I have no problem with restricting minor's access to sexually explicit content.

7. Fatalities of pregnant women from abortions do not happen when it is legal.

8. I agree that more people should prioritize their children's welfare and should be made to pay for their support.

9. Agreed.

10. Agreed, and comprehensive fact-based sex education in the schools is proven to reduce unintended pregnancies and STDs.

11 & 12. Thanks to better education, openness in the media and the social and legal progress advocated by liberals I don't see Sharia-like laws happening in the USA anytime soon. However, vigilance is necessary on these issues because advocates of sexually oppressive policies are still out there and they re-emerge with regularity.

1. I believe that we also have a duty and responsibility to the community and our society as well as our own wants and desires. It's well known around here that I'm not an advocate of women in most areas of the work force. I'll simply leave it at that.

2. Again, I feel that we have a societal responsibility as well, and that society has the right to say when certain clothing, accessories, etc... are not appropriate in public places. Trust me it's not just the "sexual deviants" who have to sometimes bite their lips and bend to society's limitations.

3. My biggest issue with contraceptives has to do with the idea many young people seem to have that they're a miracle vaccine for the disease known as pregnancy and that using them allows you to ignore all potential parental responsibilities if they don't work. I also believe that it's up to individuals to pay their own way in life, not expect other people/society to provide them with optional products/services; one of which is contraceptives.

4. While I agree with that, I do believe that society has the right to place certain expectations on people when they are in public. That includes their manner of dress and basic etiquette/decorum.

6. We have a 7-11, Cumberland Farms, Honey Farms, etc... on every corner where you can generally walk in and buy copies of Playboy and many other much more sexually explicit magazines among other things. We have totally desensitized our society to sex and pretty much everything associated with it, and I believe it has hurt us as a society.

7. I am never going to be happy or pleased with the idea of abortion being legal. I believe the "choice" is made when one chooses to engage in the sexual act and that abortion is simply a means to avoid the consequences of that decision. If we could get our legal system out of the way, there would be many families who would love to take in many of those unwanted children. I would rather help the couple keep the baby and raise it rather than ending a life almost before it has begun.

10. I have no problem with reproductive education as part of the Biology curriculum, but I do believe that "sex ed" should be an OPTIONAL class, not a required one. Enough information can be presented in a Biology class to meet the necessary standard without going overboard.

11/12. I think we need to make a clear distinction between "sexual oppression" and societal standards of basic decency in conduct. Whatever you want to do in your own private space is your choice. When you venture into the public sphere, you should be polite enough to maintain a certain level of decorum. I don't want to see Adam and Eve making out in the park any more than I want to see Adam and Steve doing so. The biggest problem is that Conservatives have seen over the years that if they give an inch, the other side wants to take a mile (63,360 inches), so we're not exactly interested in giving up any more inches until something comes back the other way. It's not compromise if only one side has to give things up.

The Catholic Church and others would like to ban all contraceptives. Many conservative politicians have tried to ban nearly all sexually oriented media and people have been imprisoned for obscenity within the last ten years. The FCC has levied huge fines on broadcasters for allowing taboo words (fleeting expletives) or flashes of body parts (Janet Jackson Superbowl incident) on air at the wrong time due to pressure from social conservatives. Many conservatives blame campus rape victims for getting raped and labeled an advocate of contraceptive access a slut. Conservatives have also advocated for mandatory dress codes in schools. So far, they have not advocated for dress codes for adults or for honor killings, but in most other regards the cultural conservative policies are the same as the policies of the Victorian era and fundamentalist Muslim countries.

Again, see my comments above about inches/miles and about the concept of basic societal standards of behavior, dress, decorum, etc... There IS a middle ground on most of these issues that I think people could actually get on board with IF both sides see the other as being willing to give some things up to reach that point. Conservatives don't blame rape victims; we'd just rather teach these women how not to be raped rather than arguing over whose fault it was that she got raped. Contraceptive activists would do themselves (and everyone) a lot of good by focusing more on the idea of contraception as an alternative rather than as a requirement. They would also do better to stop focusing on the 16-19 ear old crowd as their main target audience in everything they do. I am an advocate of dress codes in school. School is a child's job, and anything that takes their focus away from that job is unnecessary in that environment.

 

[Commie]

From the pov of someone approaching 60, I see the problem of reactionary movements rising up as one that is fed by ignorance of history...especially recent history! Whenever the usual crap about abortion and the need to criminalize abortion rises up, there are fewer and fewer of us (both men and women) who remember a time before legalization of abortion and birth control for women. It was a time when many young women of modest means..especially those who were dabbling in the black market of prostitution, were at the mercy of illegal, black market abortionists. Any who died of septic infections or other complications were quickly forgotten because these were not respectable members of society. For some reason, there was a great progressive groundswell that started in the mid-60's that sought to address all sorts of social injustices, and providing access to abortion and birth control became one of them.

What the conservative reactionaries are seeking to do today, is take us back to the times prior to 1960's when few women had a role in public life or were in the workforce, and birth rates were more than double what they are today. This is nirvana to a lot of simple minded people who have no idea what they are asking for or inviting as our future!

 

[Commie]

The Catholic Church and others would like to ban all contraceptives. Many conservative politicians have tried to ban nearly all sexually oriented media and people have been imprisoned for obscenity within the last ten years. The FCC has levied huge fines on broadcasters for allowing taboo words (fleeting expletives) or flashes of body parts (Janet Jackson Superbowl incident) on air at the wrong time due to pressure from social conservatives. Many conservatives blame campus rape victims for getting raped and labeled an advocate of contraceptive access a slut. Conservatives have also advocated for mandatory dress codes in schools. So far, they have not advocated for dress codes for adults or for honor killings, but in most other regards the cultural conservative policies are the same as the policies of the Victorian era and fundamentalist Muslim countries.

I am never surprised anymore how many self-proclaimers of public morals, fail to live up to their own standards in their personal lives. I suspect that the future Christian theocracy will look no different than the Muslim theocracies they point fingers at today. How much longer before they start advocating for Mosaic Law here....which includes public stonings also btw.

 

[Eric7216]

I suspect that the future Christian theocracy will look no different than the Muslim theocracies they point fingers at today.

A bit off subject but I had to respond to this. As you know, Marx came from a long line of rabbis until his family converted to Christianity. His whole work is based on Biblical morality regarding distribution of wealth, concerns for the poor, and hatred of the rich. So, the future Christian theocracy (which is already here) looks like communism/socialism with wealth distribution policies. You can kick god out of the equation but still have biblical/religious morality, as exemplified by Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy, and Ireland which are the most religious countries in Europe and also holders of the most unsustainable social welfare programs.

 

[CLAX1911]

That's fine. On the other hand I suspect some of the folks in Sodom and Gomorrah had a similar view.

Sodom and Gomorrah net factually existed, so the relevance of this doesn't exist.

 

[Gathomas88]

1. Women with only a couple of children, and women who can afford paid childcare can have successful careers. Without access to contraceptives women would have more children and the ones who could not afford child care would be unlikely to have a good career.

The Church is not completely opposed to contraceptive methods anyway. We freely support Natural Family Planning; a method which can be shown to be just as effective as the pill when used properly.

Natural Family Planning Method As Effective As Contraceptive Pill, New Research Finds

No one is advocating that women relinquish control of the reproductive process.

2. The Kinsey reports shocked the nation because they revealed that was a lot more diverse sexual activity than realized before.

Kinsey was a perverted fraud.

“Child Sexuality” and the Fraud of the Alfred Kinsey Reports

Kinsey's Secret: The Phony Science of the Sexual Revolution

Three

Subsequent research has shown that the image of completely monogamous couples in the past was not accurate.

To the contrary, we can show for an objective fact that average numbers of sexual partners have dramatically increased since the onset of the sexual revolution.

International Economic Review - Social Change: The Sexual Revolution

In 1900 only 6% of unwed teenage females engaged in premarital sex. Now, three quarters do.

The percentages for women born in the post Sexual Revolution era have basically completely reversed themselves in the decades since it took place.

Even the Kinsey Institute's own data reflects this.

Kinsey Institute

•3% of men have had zero sexual partners since the age of 18, 20% have had 1 partner, 21% have had 2-4 partners, 23% have had 5-10 partners, 16% have had 11-20 partners, and 17% have had 21 or more partners

•3% of women have had zero sexual partners since the age of 18, 31% have had 1 partner, 36% have had 2-4 partners, 20% have had 5-10 partners, 6% have had 11-20 partners, and 3% have had 21 or more partners

Numbers anywhere near that high would have been well nigh unthinkable before the Sexual Revolution. Now, they are common place.

STD rates reflect this reality, as do unplanned pregnancy rates.

3. Yes, advertising and media encourage young women to wear clothes that are not practical. However, they still have a choice and many women reject these images and wear what they want. In the past, women did not have that freedom of choice.

Nonsense. The social pressure faced by women in the past was the same as it is today. There was always a "choice."

Hell! In some ways, the social pressure faced by women to "objectify" and sexualize their bodies for male consumption might actually be worse today than it was in the past.

4. If birth rates are down in some countries it is because people now have freedom of choice.

Which isn't necessarily a good thing if those people make overwhelming bad decisions with the "freedom" in question.

Those areas are also the most prosperous.

They won't be for much longer if current trends towards population decline continue. Population growth is one of the single largest factors in driving GDP growth, social innovation, and productivity.

The world is far from having a population shortage, the population continues to rise and there is still hunger and poverty in many parts of the world . Regions with a population shortage can allow more immigration to address the issue.

Relying upon other people to reproduce so you don't have to is an idiotic solution to the problem at best.

India and China have increased their Percapita GDP more than one hundred fold in the last few decades. The rest of the developing world is not far behind.

Who's to say that the immigrants will even keep coming after a certain point?

5. People now have choices. No one is forced into any kind of lifestyle.

In theory? Perhaps.

In reality, however; this is not the case.

By and large, the old social stigmas against promiscuous sexual activity have not been eradicated, but simply reversed. Young people are actually now encouraged by the popular media and their peer group to have sex, or risk being branded as social outcasts for failing to do so.

This serves to push many people into risky sexual behavior that they might not have engaged in otherwise.

in most other regards the cultural conservative policies are the same as the policies of the Victorian era and fundamentalist Muslim countries.

This is nonsense.

Since some cling to the notion tha STD's are more common than in the 60's and 70's, I post this chart

Note how the rate is now lower than it was in 1966 and if it weren't for the increases in Chlamydia and Herpes (two STD's where the symptoms are often subtle to non-existent and come and go) the decrease in STD rates would be even much lower.

Ummm... No. The 1960s and 1970s would have been the height of the Sexual Revolution, and therefore would have seen the greatest spike in overall rates. That is exactly what your chart shows.

Additionally, you are failing to account for the shift in the kinds of STDs which have become more common in the decades since the 1960s.

In the old days, all a person had to really worry about were easily treatable diseases like gonorrhea. Now, incurable diseases like herpes and HIV have become common place.

Nearly 50% of all young American women could be infected with either HSV-1 or HSV-2 by 2025 if current trends continue.

Herpes Rates Could Explode by 2025

This is in spite of condom usage being at all time highs.

International Economic Review - Social Change: The Sexual Revolution



Unfettered sexuality makes STDs worse. That's really all there is to it.

 

[CLAX1911]

The Church is not completely opposed to contraceptive methods anyway. We freely support Natural Family Planning; a method which can be shown to be just as effective as the pill when used properly.

Natural Family Planning Method As Effective As Contraceptive Pill, New Research Finds

No one is advocating that women relinquish control of the reproductive process.



Kinsey was a perverted fraud.

“Child Sexuality” and the Fraud of the Alfred Kinsey Reports

Kinsey's Secret: The Phony Science of the Sexual Revolution

Three



To the contrary, we can show for an objective fact that average numbers of sexual partners have dramatically increased since the onset of the sexual revolution.

International Economic Review - Social Change: The Sexual Revolution



View attachment 67161061

The percentages for women born in the post Sexual Revolution era have basically completely reversed themselves in the decades since it took place.

Even the Kinsey Institute's own data reflects this.

Kinsey Institute



Numbers anywhere near that high would have been well nigh unthinkable before the Sexual Revolution. Now, they are common place.

STD rates reflect this reality, as do unplanned pregnancy rates.



Nonsense. The social pressure faced by women in the past was the same as it is today. There was always a "choice."

Hell! In some ways, the social pressure faced by women to "objectify" and sexualize their bodies for male consumption might actually be worse today than it was in the past.



Which isn't necessarily a good thing if those people make overwhelming bad decisions with the "freedom" in question.



They won't be for much longer if current trends towards population decline continue. Population growth is one of the single largest factors in driving GDP growth, social innovation, and productivity.



Relying upon other people to reproduce so you don't have to is an idiotic solution to the problem at best.

India and China have increased their Percapita GDP more than one hundred fold in the last few decades. The rest of the developing world is not far behind.

Who's to say that the immigrants will even keep coming after a certain point?



In theory? Perhaps.

In reality, however; this is not the case.

By and large, the old social stigmas against promiscuous sexual activity have not been eradicated, but simply reversed. Young people are actually now encouraged by the popular media and their peer group to have sex, or risk being branded as social outcasts for failing to do so.

This serves to push many people into risky sexual behavior that they might not have engaged in otherwise.



This is nonsense.



Ummm... No. The 1960s and 1970s would have been the height of the Sexual Revolution, and therefore would have seen the greatest spike in overall rates. That is exactly what your chart shows.

Additionally, you are failing to account for the shift in the kinds of STDs which have become more common in the decades since the 1960s.

In the old days, all a person had to really worry about were easily treatable diseases like gonorrhea. Now, incurable diseases like herpes and HIV have become common place.

Nearly 50% of all young American women could be infected with either HSV-1 or HSV-2 by 2025 if current trends continue.

Herpes Rates Could Explode by 2025

This is in spite of condom usage being at all time highs.

International Economic Review - Social Change: The Sexual Revolution

View attachment 67161063

Unfettered sexuality makes STDs worse. That's really all there is to it.

This picture pretty much sums up your argument.
http://makingroomforgod.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/i-am-not-listening.jpg

 

[Gathomas88]

This picture pretty much sums up your argument.
http://makingroomforgod.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/i-am-not-listening.jpg

That your expert opinion? :lol:

 

[CLAX1911]

That your expert opinion? :lol:

Indeed.

You argue against reality. Too prop up your collapsing morality.