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Why the Supreme Court should find for the Judges power, and Birthright Citizenship.

No it’s the actual holding of the case.
Nope. It’s dicta. The holding was Wong was a citizen because he was born on Us soil under the 14th amendment. It’s why every child since regardless of parents immigration status has been a citizen. Because the 14th is crystal clear.
 
There was not.

Which was dicta. It has no relevance or precedential meaning. Because there was no such legal distinction at the time.

Well it was relevant because the children of resident aliens became citizens and the children of nonresident citizens didn't.
 
Well it was relevant because the children of resident aliens became citizens and the children of nonresident citizens didn't.
All children born on Us soil became citizens regardless of the parents status. The sole exception are children of diplomats with immunity. I’m sorry, but you have no legal leg to stand on. This is long and repeatedly settled constitutional law.
 
The Trump administration has faced an unprecedented 220 lawsuits during the first 100 hundred days of Trump's Presidency. That's more than an average of 2 sttempts per day by Democrat dead enders to rewrite the election results. Democrats seek to turn the judiciary into a dictatorial super legislature resulting in the chaos Democrats claim curbing the wave of abusive national injunctions will create.

You do understand what the district in Federal District court means, right

Maybe you should either retake Civics or read a book explaining America's court system.
 
Only due to net immigration.

Without immigration, the United States would be in a slight population decline, as the deathrate exceeds the birthrate.

Well then, we should be encouraging immigration.
 
Maybe you should either retake Civics or read a book explaining America's court system.
Right, Democrats launch a wave of forum shopped lawsuits designed to provide an opportunity for political activist judges to act as petty tyrants but I am to blame for not knowing the role of the judiciary. You want to live in a country ruled by 688 unelected petty tyrants? That's not a Constitutional Republic.

The sad truth is Democrats have eschewed the system of government specified by the Constitution in favor of filing exponentially more lawsuits targeting the Trump administration than any previous Presidency. It's a an attempt to use the judiciary to undermine the election.
 
Well then, we should be encouraging immigration.
We do. Over 1 million immigrants per year are admitted legally. The immigration system can be reformed but the last time it was tried with HR2 the Democrat Senate majority leader blocked the House passed bill from consideration.

Oh, not even the Democrats who supported it claimed the backroom border bill was comprehensive immigration reform.
 
So we can't prosecute illegals for crimes committed inside the United States?
Of course we can. That's because they are subject to the territorial jurisdiction of the United States. We cannot prosecute them for acts we have made unlawful even overseas because our jurisdiction does not cover them there, though US citizens are subject to those same laws outside the US because we exercise complete jurisdiction over them, no matter where they are.
 
Never claimed otherwise. Feel free to show what does render a person in the US from being outside the jurisdiction of the US? You were linked to a list. Topmost were diplomats/their kids.

And your example re: allegiance has been refuted...unless you can show that allegiance also "renders a person in the US outside the jurisdiction of the United States."
They are subject to the territorial jurisdiction of the US. You've refuted nothing.

Stop trying to divert. It shows your claims are weak. As does the rather desperate sarcasm.
Stop trying to blame me for your untrue statements.

I was clear I've only seen it here on the same subject and STILL undefined, so why would my answer be any different?
That's not what you said, initially.

Citation? Asking again. ⬇️
Same as it was three months ago.

How does any of that provide examples where illegal immigrants are not subject to the jurisdiction of the US"
It demonstrates that they are subject only to partial jurisdiction, not complete jurisdiction, because they can leave the United States and not be subject to our jurisdiction like US citizens are.
 
You really want to go through a reading comprehension exercise?

For your sake, yes.

The power to enact the AEA was, through congressional legislation, imbued in the president and the president alone.

So what? There’s a distinction between a power vested and the substance of that power. The two aren’t the same and your flaw is to treat them as the same.

The AEA, a statute passed by Congress, vested a power to the President. Despite that, the law doesn’t leave to the President’s discretion the substance of that power and the written statute determines the substance of that power, and it is the province of the judicial branch to interpret the substance of that power as expressed by the written statute.
There were qualifications upon which the Act could be declared but NONE of those qualifications included congressional or judicial review.

Incorrect. Judicial interpretation of a statute is inherently a component of the judicial branch’s constitutional power of judicial review. The statute doesn’t have to grant to the judicial branch the ability or power of judicial review of said statute, the judicial branch already possesses such authority under the Constitution.

Trump, in his declaration for implementing the Act CLEARLY laid out the reasoning and did so in a manner that absolutely fulfills the qualifications requirement.

That’s your argument, your opinion, which may or may not be true. Regardless, Trump doing so doesn’t foreclose judicial review as judicial review exists and allows to test the veracity of Trump’s actions and reasoning in relation to the words of the statute and their meaning.

If the judiciary disagrees with his reasoning then that's just too bad BUT they can request congress to look into the matter as an abuse of power subject to impeachment.

Not under our Constitutional systems, if SCOTUS disagrees they can, consistent with their Article 3 power, declare Trump’s actions as not authorized by the statute and reverse or affirm a lower court’s ruling upholding Trump’s action or reverse or affirm a lower court’s ruling Trump’s conduct as not adhering to the statute and any corresponding orders or declarations of the lower courts.

What exactly is your source for thinking the judiciary has no role under the Constitution?

The idea that Trump just pulled this whole idea out of his ass makes a good narrative for political "news" commentary but it's completely wrong and IGNORES the stated basis on which the Act was declared.
Clearly addressing someone else or some other view as I never articulated such a view anywhere in this thread or ever, and your soapbox diatribe is irrelevant to my position.

Again, invocation of the act DOES NOT require advice and consent.

“Advice and consent” is in relation to the appointments by the President and is solely a power of the Senate. “Advice and consent” is completely devoid of any relation to the passage of federal laws and the authority of judicial review under the Constitution.

Nowhere in the legislation does the invocation of the Act require judicial review and, as an inherent power granted by congress to the Executive, it implicitly leaves review to congress through impeachment.

Judicial review is a constitutional power under Article 3 of the Constitution, nullifying any requirement this statute authorize or permit judicial review.

Next, “require judicial review” is a misplaced necessary condition as I have never taken the view the statute created such necessary condition.

Finally, Congress granting a power to the President to exercise does not imply judicial review nonexistent, forbidden or impermissible, since judicial review is a constitutional power that neither branch can deny the judicial branch from having or forbid from exercising under the Constitution.

Indeed, the Line Item Veto Act of 96, was a federal statute signed into law and vested power to the President veto, effectively to cancel specific provisions of a bill, such as spending items and targeted tax benefits, without vetoing the entire law.

Despite this law constituting as, in your phraseology, “an inherent power granted by congress to the Executive,” the federal judicial branch, District Court and SCOTUS, exercised judicial review of the law and SCOTUS ultimately determined the law as unconstitutional. Clinton v City of New York, 524 U.S. 417, (1998).

So no, the statute operating as vesting “an inherent power granted by congress to the Executive” does not “implicitly leaves review to congress through impeachment” such that judicial review is prohibited, as Congress did the same with the Line Item Veto Act and the judicial branch retained its judicial review authority and exercised that authority with respect to the statute.
 
They are subject to the territorial jurisdiction of the US. You've refuted nothing.

OK, now please define the distinction between "territorial jurisdiction of the US" jurisdiction and "jurisdiction of the US" before you pivot to yet another term to hide behind. And citizens and illegal aliens and legal, non-diplomatic visitors, are still "subject to the jurisdiction of the US" no matter what their allegiance or no allegiance. No need to make up "territorial," "complete," or any other qualifier unless you can cite the distinctions.

Fail for you.

Stop trying to blame me for your untrue statements.

Which of my statements are untrue? Quote them...put up or ...? I'm sure you will prove me wrong if you can.


That was a lawyer speaking...where is it legally defined? If it's going to be legally determining people's lives, by a judicial body, surely there is an actual legal definition for it. Esp. since many judges have examined the 14th Amendment and citizenship since.

Note: Trumball was not a crafter of the 14th A...I found no such substantiation...he was commenting, as a lawyer, on a case using the 14th A as a basis. It was his "legal" opinion. Not a judge's opinion nor did he contribute to the writing of the 14th A, so it does not go to "intent of the 14th A."

LMAO, if that paragraph was being stated by Rudy Guiliani, would you accept it as legally accurate and bet your legal status to be deported on it? :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: (Pretty sure there's no win for you in answering this either way 😄)

In any case, that's a statement, not a legal definition. Please cite that definition. And also, that is not a distinction for "complete." Look at exactly what's highlighted in yellow in those final 2 sentences...nada on "complete."

Another ooopsie on your part.

It demonstrates that they are subject only to partial jurisdiction, not complete jurisdiction, because they can leave the United States and not be subject to our jurisdiction like US citizens are.

No it does not. And when US citizens are subject to US jurisdiction out side the US, it's because they are legally citizens of the US :rolleyes:. AND also generally subject to the jurisdiction of the foreign :rolleyes: country they're in. Just like illegal immigrants when here in the US. Has nothing to do with allegiance. I have no stated allegiance to the US...I'm still a citizen, still subject to the jurisdiction of the US while in the US and outside it AND subject to the jurisdiction of any country I visit. Dont forget to look up the definition of "allegiance" before you respond.

So let's see the definitions for 'partial' and 'complete' jurisdictions? Still waiting.
 
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For your sake, yes.



So what? There’s a distinction between a power vested and the substance of that power. The two aren’t the same and your flaw is to treat them as the same.

The AEA, a statute passed by Congress, vested a power to the President. Despite that, the law doesn’t leave to the President’s discretion the substance of that power and the written statute determines the substance of that power, and it is the province of the judicial branch to interpret the substance of that power as expressed by the written statute.


Incorrect. Judicial interpretation of a statute is inherently a component of the judicial branch’s constitutional power of judicial review. The statute doesn’t have to grant to the judicial branch the ability or power of judicial review of said statute, the judicial branch already possesses such authority under the Constitution.



That’s your argument, your opinion, which may or may not be true. Regardless, Trump doing so doesn’t foreclose judicial review as judicial review exists and allows to test the veracity of Trump’s actions and reasoning in relation to the words of the statute and their meaning.



Not under our Constitutional systems, if SCOTUS disagrees they can, consistent with their Article 3 power, declare Trump’s actions as not authorized by the statute and reverse or affirm a lower court’s ruling upholding Trump’s action or reverse or affirm a lower court’s ruling Trump’s conduct as not adhering to the statute and any corresponding orders or declarations of the lower courts.

What exactly is your source for thinking the judiciary has no role under the Constitution?


Clearly addressing someone else or some other view as I never articulated such a view anywhere in this thread or ever, and your soapbox diatribe is irrelevant to my position.



“Advice and consent” is in relation to the appointments by the President and is solely a power of the Senate. “Advice and consent” is completely devoid of any relation to the passage of federal laws and the authority of judicial review under the Constitution.



Judicial review is a constitutional power under Article 3 of the Constitution, nullifying any requirement this statute authorize or permit judicial review.

Next, “require judicial review” is a misplaced necessary condition as I have never taken the view the statute created such necessary condition.

Finally, Congress granting a power to the President to exercise does not imply judicial review nonexistent, forbidden or impermissible, since judicial review is a constitutional power that neither branch can deny the judicial branch from having or forbid from exercising under the Constitution.

Indeed, the Line Item Veto Act of 96, was a federal statute signed into law and vested power to the President veto, effectively to cancel specific provisions of a bill, such as spending items and targeted tax benefits, without vetoing the entire law.

Despite this law constituting as, in your phraseology, “an inherent power granted by congress to the Executive,” the federal judicial branch, District Court and SCOTUS, exercised judicial review of the law and SCOTUS ultimately determined the law as unconstitutional. Clinton v City of New York, 524 U.S. 417, (1998).

So no, the statute operating as vesting “an inherent power granted by congress to the Executive” does not “implicitly leaves review to congress through impeachment” such that judicial review is prohibited, as Congress did the same with the Line Item Veto Act and the judicial branch retained its judicial review authority and exercised that authority with respect to the statute.
Lemme ask you a question; do we have three co-equal branches of government or not?

Each branch of government has certain authority that is exclusively theirs. The Executive or Legislative branches can't come in and say that a court ruling was wrong and nullify it because that decision is part of the inherent authority of the Judiciary. The Judiciary can't make up laws on their won because that is the inherent authority of the Legislative branch. Your theory denies the Executive branch any inherent authority and therefore puts the Executive as an authority secondary to the Legislative and Judicial branches. That isn't the way the Constitution laid things out. It may be the way you WANT things to be but that isn't the way things are supposed to be and they have NEVER been that way other than when Trump has held office.
 
For your consideration: The only reason we are having this discussion about an issue long ago decided is that it is the latest plank in Trump’s anti-everything-about-immigrants-except-perhaps-White-South-Africans platform, but one exhibit in his Make America Hate Again theme park of ignorance and lawlessness.
 
For your consideration: The only reason we are having this discussion about an issue long ago decided is that it is the latest plank in Trump’s anti-everything-about-immigrants-except-perhaps-White-South-Africans platform, but one exhibit in his Make America Hate Again theme park of ignorance and lawlessness.

It's "Make America White Again."
 
We do. Over 1 million immigrants per year are admitted legally. The immigration system can be reformed but the last time it was tried with HR2 the Democrat Senate majority leader blocked the House passed bill from consideration.

Oh, not even the Democrats who supported it claimed the backroom border bill was comprehensive immigration reform.

Provided they're white:

"As the Trump administration faces multiple lawsuits over its rescission of temporary protected status for people of various nationalities who are fleeing legitimate strife in their countries, it’s preparing to roll out the red carpet for a new group it has designated as refugees: white South Africans who say they’ve been discriminated against by their country’s anti-apartheid government."

 

But NOW you want specifics. Okay, I can do that, too.

In addition to the aforementioned treason, there's also the scope of the PROTECT Act of 2003. US citizens can be criminally charged for engaging in sex acts with minors abroad, just as they can be charged for doing it in the US, even if the acts are completely legal in the jurisdiction in which they occurred. How can they do this? Because the US citizens are under the complete jurisdiction of the United States, and the laws of the United States can reach them anywhere in the world. This jurisdiction does not reach a Canadian citizen who travels to Thailand to engage in such activities. Why? Because we do not have complete jurisdiction over him and our laws cannot reach him when he is outside of the territory of the United States.

Income tax is another point. US citizens are obligated to file a tax return, even if they are living abroad, haven't been in the US for years, and have acumulated no income within them. Persons who are not US citizens and have earned no income in the United States are not required to file a return. Why? Because the United States has complete jurisdiction over expats and not the typical alien abroad.

Would you care for an analogy? If I'm your parent (and you were a minor child), I exercise jurisdiction over you everywhere. I can command you to not curse at your grandmother's house and you are obligated to obey. If you are my co-worker over for a beer and the football game, I can command you to not root for the Packers; because you are in my home you are obligated to obey, but that obligation vanishes at my door. There is jurisdiction that I have because of who you are, and jurisdiction I have because of where you are. Jurisdiction based on who is "complete."

How are your "examples" applicable? No one ever said the US has jurisdiction over illegal immigrants in other countries. If they're in another country, they're not here, illegally or otherwise, :rolleyes: and they're not citizens :rolleyes:. If they were outside the US and had committed a crime here that we want to prosecute them for, we have to request extradition. That's "not" under our jurisdiction.:rolleyes:

It demonstrates that they are subject only to partial jurisdiction, not complete jurisdiction, because they can leave the United States and not be subject to our jurisdiction like US citizens are.

Let's take a closer look at this exchange ⬆️

First, again, note the red text above in my post which shows your examples dont work and why. Your examples all dealt with citizens and/or where the people in question were physically.

Then please cite where someone being under the jurisdiction of one country where they are at that time and then being subject to the jurisdiction of another country where they are at that (another) time means being under "partial" jurisdiction anywhere? Or diminishes the "level" or "completeness" of being under the jurisdiction of the country where they are? Goodness gracious, it's not 4th grade division. :rolleyes:

Stop flailing and please document the claims you're making.
 
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Of course we can. That's because they are subject to the territorial jurisdiction of the United States. We cannot prosecute them for acts we have made unlawful even overseas because our jurisdiction does not cover them there, though US citizens are subject to those same laws outside the US because we exercise complete jurisdiction over them, no matter where they are.
The US has no jurisdiction over anyone outside the US. The US has jurisdiction over everyone on US soil with the sole exception being diplomats with immunity. There is no such thing as partial or complete jurisdiction. It’s something you made up and have been corrected on dozens of times.
 
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Provided they're white:

"As the Trump administration faces multiple lawsuits over its rescission of temporary protected status for people of various nationalities who are fleeing legitimate strife in their countries, it’s preparing to roll out the red carpet for a new group it has designated as refugees: white South Africans who say they’ve been discriminated against by their country’s anti-apartheid government."

Kindly provide evidence of US legal immigration being exclusively white. You can't.

There are populations granted supposedly temporary protected status from deportation living in the US for decades. Haitian refugees from the 2010 earthquake are living and working in the US today. They travel freely back and forth to their supposedly ravaged homeland. If they have anchor baby children while living in the US they can benefit from the child's welfare benefits.

Like so many government programs, especially temporary ones, TPS has turned into a lifestyle.
 
I didn't say it was, just that Trump prefers it to be
Learn to READ more carefully.
Oh, you got called out for falsely claiming Trump is racist so time for denial. You wrote "provided they are white" learn to WRITE more carefully.
 
The problem, as I see it, is that the right interprets "natural born citizen" as meaning born in the USA. And, IMO, it does not mean that.
Not your country, not your constitution, not your concern.
 
Oh, you got called out for falsely claiming Trump is racist so time for denial. You wrote "provided they are white" learn to WRITE more carefully.
There is no window into Trump’s heart about racism, but his actions, policies and lies speak loud and clear of his appeals to bigotry.
 
There is no window into Trump’s heart about racism, but his actions, policies and lies speak loud and clear of his appeals to bigotry.
In contrast to the anti Trump invective the objections to South African refugees are purely based on race.
 
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