Why Taxes Have to Be Raised on the Rich

[haymarket]

of course it does to you, its a massive tax hike on the rich

It is a tax hike on all who earn dollar one in our nation.

You have made it abundantly clear that you will endorse almost any plan which cuts your taxes.

You have made it abundantly clear that you will oppose any plan which raises your personal taxes.

The nation and its people really have nothing to do with your decision or what you support. I do not think you even care about your fellow rich. You base it all on how it impacts you.

National policy based on one mans personal selfishness is insanity for a nation.

 

[TurtleDude]

It is sad that you have to attack me with childish insults instead of facing the reality that we are in. Yes, we have big spending.... and yes, we have had low tax rates for too many over the last decade and the combination has produced disaster. We must deal with BOTH sides of the ledger and we must do that now.

If we fail to do that we really screw your children and grandchildren and it will be a shameful legacy.

Turtle needs to pay more than he is. I need to pay more than I do. You need to pay more than you do. We all need to pay more than we do.

Of course, your children and grandchildren can do that for you if the current goal is to advance right wing selfishness above all else.

I already pay far more than my fair share under any objective characteristics of fair share. The top one percent should not be carrying almost 40% of the income tax burden and all the estate/death tax burden. While I oppose taxes on income or wealth I would note a fair share of an INCOME tax is the group that makes 22% of the income should pay 22% of the income tax meaning the wealthy still pay 22X more than most groups. as to estate/death tax-it should be abolished but if not-everyone should pay say a 5% rate on whatever the estate is

 

[haymarket]

LOL-its a soak the rich scheme.

why should the rich pay 4X or higher more FICA taxes-do they receive 4X the benefits over what they get now

you do understand that concept do you not?

Apparently it is YOU who do not understand the FICA proposal. I am not advocating that you pay four times the rate that anyone else pays. I simply want you to pay the same rate on all your earnings like the other 93% of Americans pay.

Benefits would be frozen. Social Security is NOT an personal IRA so the defined benefit return is irrelevant as to an individual. It is a societal program for America.

 

[TurtleDude]

It is a tax hike on all who earn dollar one in our nation.

You have made it abundantly clear that you will endorse almost any plan which cuts your taxes.

You have made it abundantly clear that you will oppose any plan which raises your personal taxes.

The nation and its people really have nothing to do with your decision or what you support. I do not think you even care about your fellow rich. You base it all on how it impacts you.

National policy based on one mans personal selfishness is insanity for a nation.

I oppose plans that are designed to soak the rich that are motivated by either envy, class hatred or are based on the idiotic belief this government actually needs more money rather than being put on a massive diet

I would find your scheme more honest if you wanted to make everyone pay the same % rate and you want that to be 40% meaning my taxes would go up 5%, yours would go up a bit more than that and the takers would go from 0 to 40%

and your scheme is far more selfish since you derive political benefit by soaking the rich.

 

[haymarket]

I already pay far more than my fair share under any objective characteristics of fair share. The top one percent should not be carrying almost 40% of the income tax burden and all the estate/death tax burden. While I oppose taxes on income or wealth I would note a fair share of an INCOME tax is the group that makes 22% of the income should pay 22% of the income tax meaning the wealthy still pay 22X more than most groups. as to estate/death tax-it should be abolished but if not-everyone should pay say a 5% rate on whatever the estate is

yes, we know that even though you object to income or wealth based taxes you would still support a scheme based on them as long as it reduced your own personal tax bill. You have made that abundantly clear. No one could possible be unclear as to what you want or why you want it after thousands and thousands of posts you have made on this issue and placing your own welfare above that of the nation and the American people.

 

[ttwtt78640]

First, I am flattered and honored that you believe I have a presidential campaign. But I do not. I am not running for president nor am I an employee of any presidential campaign or even an unpaid advisor. My views on this matter do not have to be in sync with anyone. There are my views.

Second, I have stated that my taxation and budget platform consists of the following main points

*** raise the federal income tax on all American earning dollar one by five points across the board
*** cut at least $300 billion in spending today
*** have 100% of earners pay FICA tax on 100% of their earnings instead of just the lower 93% of earners as it is today
*** freeze Social Security benefits at the current levels plus a modest inflation increase if necessary
*** abolish the special rates for both capital gains and inheritance taxes and treat them as normal income

WOW, great post, I almost agree with this. The last line is NOT needed; we need no investment, LTCG or inheritance tax law changes, since these transactions are simply "wealth transfer" of already taxed income. Why not LIMIT federal spending to federal revenue +/- 5% for "emergencies"/national debt reduction, instead of keeping $1T in annual deficits?

The first step in federal "budget" reform, IMHO, is establishing, by constitutional amendment, a LIMIT on federal spending based on a percentage of GDP, and therefore an implicit limit on TOTAL federal taxation to match it. Under Clinton we had federal spending of 19% of GDP and taxation at 18% of GDP, under Bush it was federal spending at 20% of GDP and federal taxation at 17% of GDP and now under Obama it is federal spending at 24% of GDP (yep, a 20% increase) and federal taxation at 17% of GDP, yeilding our current federal deficit of 40%. As you can see, it was not the Bush tax cuts ALONE, that caused the deficit, but FAR more federal spending WITHOUT any coresponding federal tax increases to match it, that caused the HUGE deficit/debt increases.

 

[TurtleDude]

Apparently it is YOU who do not understand the FICA proposal. I am not advocating that you pay four times the rate that anyone else pays. I simply want you to pay the same rate on all your earnings like the other 93% of Americans pay.

Benefits would be frozen. Social Security is NOT an personal IRA so the defined benefit return is irrelevant as to an individual. It is a societal program for America.

You again do no comprehend what I say. If someone makes 150 K they pay X amount. If they make 1 million they pay the same amount. You want the guy making a million to pay 7% on all his earnings, not just the ceiling amount now. that is a MASSIVE tax hike on him

 

[haymarket]

I oppose plans that are designed to soak the rich that are motivated by either envy, class hatred or are based on the idiotic belief this government actually needs more money rather than being put on a massive diet

I would find your scheme more honest if you wanted to make everyone pay the same % rate and you want that to be 40% meaning my taxes would go up 5%, yours would go up a bit more than that and the takers would go from 0 to 40%

and your scheme is far more selfish since you derive political benefit by soaking the rich.

This nation rejected a flat tax a century ago. That ship has long ago sailed.

My plan is based on the simple reality that even if we abolished nearly all discretionary federal government spending for more than five to seven years, we could not pay off the current debt. Your boast about a massive diet is simply folly.

Be an adult and face up to our responsibilities to future generations.

 

[haymarket]

You again do no comprehend what I say. If someone makes 150 K they pay X amount. If they make 1 million they pay the same amount. You want the guy making a million to pay 7% on all his earnings, not just the ceiling amount now. that is a MASSIVE tax hike on him

I realize it must be tough when you have to play by the same rules that 93% of the public has been playing by. Consider yourself lucky for the discriminatory preferences you have enjoyed and realize that the day of entitlement for the wealthy is over.

 

[TurtleDude]

This nation rejected a flat tax a century ago. That ship has long ago sailed.

My plan is based on the simple reality that even if we abolished nearly all discretionary federal government spending for more than five to seven years, we could not pay off the current debt. Your boast about a massive diet is simply folly.

Be an adult and face up to our responsibilities to future generations.

LOL the appeal to mass mediocrity and the pimps in office who derive huge political benefit from the tax the rich scheme

your idiotic proposal won't stop the increase in the deficit.

 

[TurtleDude]

I realize it must be tough when you have to play by the same rules that 93% of the public has been playing by. Consider yourself lucky for the discriminatory preferences you have enjoyed and realize that the day of entitlement for the wealthy is over.

More nonsense-if 93% of the population paid the same amount of taxes I do this country would have trillions in surplus. IF they even paid the same effective federal income tax rates I do, we'd have plenty of money

THE LAST THING IN THIS WORLD THAT PEOPLE LIKE YOU WANT IS TO HAVE TO CONTRIBUTE AS MUCH TO THE GOVERNMENT AS PEOPLE LIKE I DO

 

[haymarket]

More nonsense-if 93% of the population paid the same amount of taxes I do this country would have trillions in surplus. IF they even paid the same effective federal income tax rates I do, we'd have plenty of money

THE LAST THING IN THIS WORLD THAT PEOPLE LIKE YOU WANT IS TO HAVE TO CONTRIBUTE AS MUCH TO THE GOVERNMENT AS PEOPLE LIKE I DO

And if I had wings I could fly to work today.

Perhaps a discussion of the real world USA with the real deficit and debt would yield more practical results?

 

[TurtleDude]

And if I had wings I could fly to work today.

Perhaps a discussion of the real world USA with the real deficit and debt would yield more practical results?

start flapping-only you can set you free

 

[haymarket]

LOL the appeal to mass mediocrity and the pimps in office who derive huge political benefit from the tax the rich scheme

your idiotic proposal won't stop the increase in the deficit.

Applying third grade insults hardly advances the discussion.

I would be happy to consider devoting some of that tax increase to paying off the debt. That would flush and crush your objection to it.

 

[haymarket]

start flapping-only you can set you free

I have no idea what that even means. I doubt you do either.

 

[TurtleDude]

Applying third grade insults hardly advances the discussion.

I would be happy to consider devoting some of that tax increase to paying off the debt. That would flush and crush your objection to it.

politicians are pimps who pander to the weakness of others. I would be happy to have people like you start paying as much taxes as I do before I would consider paying any more myself. Once you are up to my level than you will have the proper standing to demand people like US pay more.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Apparently it is YOU who do not understand the FICA proposal. I am not advocating that you pay four times the rate that anyone else pays. I simply want you to pay the same rate on all your earnings like the other 93% of Americans pay.

Benefits would be frozen. Social Security is NOT an personal IRA so the defined benefit return is irrelevant as to an individual. It is a societal program for America.

Not only that but SS/Medicare are a "package" and while SS "makes" SOME money, Medicare now loses MORE money. ;-)

 

[haymarket]

politicians are pimps who pander to the weakness of others. I would be happy to have people like you start paying as much taxes as I do before I would consider paying any more myself. Once you are up to my level than you will have the proper standing to demand people like US pay more.

Your abysmal ignorance of the role of elected officials in the peoples representative government of the United States of America is telling. It explains your hostility to the American way of government and your open resentment of the American people and the power they hold. That is sad.

In what alternate universe of the USA do you live where all people make the same amount and are thus capable of paying the same amount in taxation?

 

[ttwtt78640]

politicians are pimps who pander to the weakness of others. I would be happy to have people like you start paying as much taxes as I do before I would consider paying any more myself. Once you are up to my level than you will have the proper standing to demand people like US pay more.

People making subsistance wages are NEVER going to be able to pay as much taxes as the affluent, give up on that idea. What Haymarket is proposing, is FAR better the the current nonsense where the bottom half pay no FIT (or get a rebate). With those voters having "skin in the game" it will apply more pressure on DC to stop the nonsense spending (NASA art program and cowboy poetry festival). Turtledude, you are not hurting, at the current taxation rates, so quit the endless whining. I agree that it is nonsense for the debate to be about rasing taxation enough to cover Obama's dream spending of 30% of GDP, but Obama and the left are temporary, as is their national debt. To get these borrow and spend morons out of office in DC, the population MUST be both taxpayers and voters, not just voters. The Obama dream is to get more voters than taxpayers, giving him (and the left) UNLIMITTED taxation powers and making socialism/social justice the new "normal" in the the nation.

 

[TurtleDude]

People making subsistance wages are NEVER going to be able to pay as much taxes as the affluent, give up on that idea. What Haymarket is proposing, is FAR better the the current nonsense where the bottom half pay no FIT (or get a rebate). With those voters having "skin in the game" it will apply more pressure on DC to stop the nonsense spending (NASA art program and cowboy poetry festival). Turtledude, you are not hurting, at the current taxation rates, so quit the endless whining. I agree that it is nonsense for the debate to be about rasing taxation enough to cover Obama's dream spending of 30% of GDP, but Obama and the left are temporary, as is their national debt. To get these borrow and spend morons out of office in DC, the population MUST be both taxpayers and voters, not just voters. The Obama dream is to get more voters than taxpayers, giving him (and the left) UNLIMITTED taxation powers and making socialism/social justice the new "normal" in the the nation.

why should the rich pay on 100% of their earnings for FICA.

You have no idea who is hurting or who is not

why should the rich have investment income that is already taxed twice go to 61%

the only good idea Haymarket has is to make non tax payers pay at least 5%

 

[ttwtt78640]

why should the rich pay on 100% of their earnings for FICA.

You have no idea who is hurting or who is not

why should the rich have investment income that is already taxed twice go to 61%

the only good idea Haymarket has is to make non tax payers pay at least 5%

The income cap on SS/Medicare taxes makes NO sense; why should a worker making $20/hour pay on FICA on 100% of their income and someone making $60/hour not? I disagreed that invesment income should be taxed at a higher rate than it now is. How can you support a FLAT tax (FICA) with a cap, yet also support a sliding scale tax on income that taxes the rich more?

 

[haymarket]

why should the rich pay on 100% of their earnings for FICA.



why should the rich have investment income that is already taxed twice go to 61%

First, because 93% of Americans pay FICA on 100% of their earnings. Lets make the rules the same for all.

Second, you already know that it is not taxed twice so lets flush that lie with the other crap down the old porcelain receptacle. The fact is that somebody who earns a million dollars a year in wages pays over TWICE the rate that somebody pays from long term capital gains. Nobody wants you to pay 61%. That is a lie.

 

[Henrin]

It is sad that you have to attack me with childish insults instead of facing the reality that we are in. Yes, we have big spending.... and yes, we have had low tax rates for too many over the last decade and the combination has produced disaster. We must deal with BOTH sides of the ledger and we must do that now.

Massive spending is the result from your own desires and fears. I have no obligation to pay for your idiocy to continue or expect that increase in taxes will offset your tiny decreases in spending.

If we fail to do that we really screw your children and grandchildren and it will be a shameful legacy.

Our children are already screwed and no amount of tax increases will change that.

Turtle needs to pay more than he is. I need to pay more than I do. You need to pay more than you do. We all need to pay more than we do.

No, we don't need to pay anything more and nor does anyone else.

Of course, your children and grandchildren can do that for you if the current goal is to advance right wing selfishness above all else.

Right wing selfishness? Prove your claims to property that is not your own for programs that you desire for individual benefit. Don't quote me the law and do not quote me make believe things like the social contract nor go on about the poor not having this or that. None of that shows anything to me other than you are nothing but a feeler and not a thinker.

 

[Henrin]

First, because 93% of Americans pay FICA on 100% of their earnings. Lets make the rules the same for all.

Or we could just eliminate FICA and what its attached too.

 

[TurtleDude]

First, because 93% of Americans pay FICA on 100% of their earnings. Lets make the rules the same for all.

Second, you already know that it is not taxed twice so lets flush that lie with the other crap down the old porcelain receptacle. The fact is that somebody who earns a million dollars a year in wages pays over TWICE the rate that somebody pays from long term capital gains. Nobody wants you to pay 61%. That is a lie.

Only if the rich get far more benefits.

iT IS TAXED TWICE THE GOVERNMENT gets two cuts at the same money. You already admitted you want a pile of money that was taxed at 35% to be taxed again at 40%


people who make a million in wages aren't whining about investment income being taxed less because they tend to invest some of their earnings. Its lazy sloths and the mediocre who whine even though their effective tax rates are lower than what the rich pay on investment income