Why Save the Fetus? [W:478]

[Scrabaholic]

Show me one in the New Testament.

Testament is irrelevant.

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)


"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those yo And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)u kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)


Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

 

[calamity]

Profanity is the linguistic crutch of the inarticulate. :lamo

Just what sort of crutch is resting your argument on "Almighty God at the Judgment"?

 

[calamity]

Testament is irrelevant.

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)


"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those yo And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)u kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)


Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Like I said, that "Thou shall not Kill" commandment has in it more loopholes than can be found in a labor contract by a Wall Street Law Firm.

 

[Scrabaholic]

Profanity is the linguistic crutch of the inarticulate. :lamo

Does that go for antichoicers, too? I've seen a lot more profanity from them on this forum than from prochoicers.

 

[RamFel]

NO it still is not and no matter how many times you will repeat it it will still not become so.

Since God made it murder, and you think it's not, what do you suggest? Go with your assertion that it's not murder?

You sound very angry, and I'm sorry you feel that way, but I think that I would rather deal with your anger than God's anger.

I fear his reprisal more than I fear yours.

How about something relevant, intelligent or factual?

How about something truthful, and compassionate? Over 50 million dead since this atrocity became law. All because these women become faced with for the most part is nothing more than an inconvenience. An inconvenience over a life. Pardon me for saying so, but that doesn't sound very intelligent to me.

By what standard, your dogma?

You think that my dogma makes it horrible? I think the death of over 50 million makes it horrible. It has nothing to do with religious dogma.

Because they are too stupid to make rational and intelligent decisions, based on reality and facts. Instead they need to rely on religious dogma and other points feed to them by people with an agenda.

I don't think it has anything to do with intelligence. It has more to do with compassion, and the defense of any victim that is being oppressed in any way. Why do Democrats always talk about being for the little guy, except in this case?

Clearly not much if anything.

What's there to know? Killing is wrong, and Democrats (or leftists, progressives, or what ever you call yourselves) are supporting the unchecked murder of millions.

Yet it is the only thing you can do.

Just calling it like it is..

 

[minnie616]

I have received Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I grew up in a United Methodist Church, my dad was a Sunday School teacher and both parents were on the board of Trustees. It was the church my mother grew up in as well....a long family legacy.

So you are still wrong and still judging. God wont like that.....

I agree. I also was taught in Sunday School not to judge others.

My Father was also very active in our United Methodist Church.

He was the Sunday School Superintendent of our United Methodist Church for many years.

 

[Logicman]

I dont really care about your judging. Just wanted to point out that you were wrong about the women you were judging.

Nope. Telling people it's wrong to kill the innocent unborn and that they will answer to God at the Judgment is right on the money.

 

[Logicman]

Does that go for antichoicers, too? I've seen a lot more profanity from them on this forum than from prochoicers.

It goes for everybody. The difference, though, is the pro-lifer's aren't murdering the innocent unborn.

 

[Removable Mind]

It goes for everybody. The difference, though, is the pro-lifer's aren't murdering the innocent unborn.

Well, here ya go again. Pretending to know what god does or doesn't. You don't know if god is inspiring women to have abortions. You don't know when a divine intervention occurs...period, regardless of the possibilities.

You don't know when free will begins or ends...if you can't know when god's will ends or begins. There might be individuals who are under god's will their entire existence...on a mission from god.

And that includes how god might judge people. That may or may not occur as you envision. Now we all know that you want it to happen. BUT...

Quit pretending you know...ANYTHING GOD IS OR ISN'T DOING!

And take you're religious theories back to the "Religion Forum". You being in the abortion forum talking about religion is like being in a bar full of drunks who are talking about politics and religion. It always ends in disaster.

 

[X Factor]

Testament is irrelevant.

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)


"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those yo And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)u kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)


Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

And those are all things you support then?

New Testament matters to me. A lot actually.

 

[Sean.McDonnell]

I agree that all humans are created equally, but the question isn't whether all humans are considered equal, its a question of when life begins.

I feel this question is tied to one's beliefs on the human soul

Religious folks believe that each human has a soul which makes them who they are, other's, the non-religious, often believe that what makes a person who they are is the frontal lobe of the brain where personality is stored.

Not being religious myself, I believe that life DOES NOT begin at conception, because a few cells in the womb are as much a person as the skin cells which fall off and die in mass everyday.

Let's just lay our cards down on the table, you don't have to agree with Pro-Choice people, but don't make it an issue of human rights. it's the question of WHAT IS human.

Conversations about abortion need less flaming rhetoric and more cool headed discussion.

 

[choiceone]

A mother loses that right when she gets pregnant. She took certain actions that caused her to get pregnant so she has to go through with her pregnancy. it's really easy to understand.

So abortion of a rape pregnancy is okay because the woman didn't take the actions that caused her pregnant?

 

[Removable Mind]

I agree that all humans are created equally, but the question isn't whether all humans are considered equal, its a question of when life begins.

I feel this question is tied to one's beliefs on the human soul

Religious folks believe that each human has a soul which makes them who they are, other's, the non-religious, often believe that what makes a person who they are is the frontal lobe of the brain where personality is stored.

Not being religious myself, I believe that life DOES NOT begin at conception, because a few cells in the womb are as much a person as the skin cells which fall off and die in mass everyday.

Let's just lay our cards down on the table, you don't have to agree with Pro-Choice people, but don't make it an issue of human rights. it's the question of WHAT IS human.

Conversations about abortion need less flaming rhetoric and more cool headed discussion.

Welcome to hell, Sean.

Strap yourself in and use whatever tools or skills that you may have to create the very first Abortion Forum that is truly civil.

Oh, your question about "What is human"...look in the mirror. If you want a real challenge - your question might be "What is a Person"?

 

[choiceone]

I've been down this road before and I am well aware that abortions are legal. But all that means is that man's law won't prosecute any one who uses this method of taking lives.

Just because the Supreme Court said that it is not murder, doesn't mean that it isn't.

Who do you fear most? The Courts, for their power to take your freedom and your life here on Earth, God and His law? He has far more power both in Heaven and here on Earth, than any human law, and I would rather follow His law, and so therefore, like it or not, abortion is murder.

But Jesus Christ was Jewish and upheld Jewish law and interpreted it in terms of the Hebrew language.

And it was clear in the Mosaic code that abortion wasn't murder because in the Mishah, the earliest part of the oral Torah tradition, which was admittedly redacted only c. 200 but was an oral tradition much longer, if a woman's life is threatened in childbirth, it is required that there be an abortion to save her life unless the child is more than halfway out of the womb, but that the child be saved if it is more than halfway out of the womb.

Also, the Masoretic text of the Torah (definitive for Judaism) and thus for the Mosaic code, in Exodus 21: 22-23, clarifies that if men by strife cause a miscarriage (not a premature birth) to a pregnant woman, the husband has an option to prosecute and the punishment is a fine. This could not be possible if causing the death of a fetus were murder, as there would be an imperative prosecution and the punishment would not be a fine. In the Mosaic code, you are punished even if you commit homicide by accident (you have to go to a refuge city to avoid prosecution).

Ancient Hebrew sources clearly make the embryo or fetus part of the woman, for they do the same in the case of non-humans - if you buy a domestic animal and that animal gives birth, the guy you bought it from can't ask for more compensation, because the embryo or fetus was part of that domestic animal, etc.

So I guess that makes you wrong about abortion being murder if you mean from the point of view of Jesus Christ.

I'd much rather be judged by Christ than by you, because Christ said not to fear those who kill them and have nothing more they can do, but rather to fear him who has the power to cast you into hell. And I don't think Christ is going to cast women into hell for having abortions. I think you are much more likely to throw them into hell by making secular human laws against abortion.

 

[minnie616]

Nope. Telling people it's wrong to kill the innocent unborn ...

Actually pro choice religions recognize that there different religious tenets regarding abortion.
They recognize that in order to have religious liberty they cannot impose their religious views on others and make them law.

The 30th anniversary of Roe v. Wade, the U.S. Supreme Court decision legalizing abortion, created a huge amount of misinformation about the nature of being pro-choice.

<SNIP>

Who is pro-choice and religious? Denominations with official and long-standing pro-choice positions include the Presbyterian Church (USA), the Episcopal Church, the United Methodist Church, the United Church of Christ, the Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations, and Reform and Conservative Judaism. These organizations have a diversity of views about abortion and recognize it as a morally complex decision that must be made by the person most affected--the woman.

Among religious groups, the pro-choice position is nuanced, recognizing that most people believe abortion--as well as bearing children-are matters for individual conscience, not government or religious mandate. Pro-choice denominations don't seek to impose their views on others or to make them law. They recognize that in our pluralistic society, politicians must not be allowed to impose laws about childbearing based on any particular belief about when life begins. The notion that life begins at the moment of conception is a belief held by some, but not all, religious groups.

In fact, the Bible never mentions abortion and does not deal with the question of when life begins. Genesis 2:7 (God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living being") refers to the specific, unique event of the creation of Adam out of the earth. It says nothing about the process of conception, pregnancy, and birth.
The Book of Exodus clearly indicates that the fetus does not have the same legal status as a person (Chapter 21:22-23). That verse indicates that if a man pushes a pregnant woman and she then miscarries, he is required only to pay a fine. If the fetus were considered a full person, he would be punished more severely as though he had taken a life.


Religions have many different--and changing--tenets about abortion. Some oppose abortion in all cases because they believe human life begins when an egg and sperm meet. They hold this belief even though medical science defines pregnancy as beginning with the implantation of the fertilized egg.

Others believe abortion must be allowed in cases of rape and incest. Some believe abortion is required in certain circumstances, such as when a woman's life is in danger.
Many religions believe the decision must be the woman's because she is the person most affected.
Christians and Jews agree that all life is sacred--the life of a woman as well as the potential life of a fetus. Many Protestant Christians emphasize the New Testament's teaching of the priesthood of all believers, meaning that everyone has direct access to God and therefore the ability to do God's wil.

The Bible tells us that God acts within human beings to set us free and enable us to assume responsibility for ourselves. If we make wrong choices, God forgives us. Humans, by the grace of God, have developed medicine, surgery, and psychiatry to prolong and enhance life. These same medical approaches can be chosen to prolong or enhance the life of a woman for whom a specific pregnancy would be dangerous.

Read more at The Biblical Basis for Being Pro-Choice: Bible, abortion, Christians, religion - Beliefnet.com

 

[prometeus]

Since God made it murder, and you think it's not, what do you suggest? Go with your assertion that it's not murder?

Really? When and how did God do that?

You sound very angry, and I'm sorry you feel that way, but I think that I would rather deal with your anger than God's anger.

Stupid drivel IS annoying but hardly something that makes me angry. Matter of fact very few things make me angry, as there is no upside to anger. Further more I really do not give a crap what you rather deal with.

I fear his reprisal more than I fear yours.

You need not fear my reprisal I do to know you and you certainly did not give any reasons for it. Here is a clue. Those who serve God out of fear might as well not serve Him. He seeks love not fear.

How about something truthful, and compassionate?

As defined by you? No thanks, reality serves me much better.

Pardon me for saying so, but that doesn't sound very intelligent to me.

I really do not think you can make that determination.

You think that my dogma makes it horrible?

Your blind irrational dogmatic view does.

I don't think it has anything to do with intelligence.

Hardly surprising.

Why do Democrats always talk about being for the little guy, except in this case?

You see, you are proving it again. The need to resort to meaningless political talking points underscores the absence of rational and intelligent reasoning.

Just calling it like it is..

No, like you are told to see it. There IS a difference.

 

[prometeus]

Ha. Don't you people, when you want to have a baby, say "Feel the baby kick," while it's still in the womb? Wise up.

Don't you people know the difference between science and common language usage?

 

[Scrabaholic]

I agree. I also was taught in Sunday School not to judge others.

My Father was also very active in our United Methodist Church.

He was the Sunday School Superintendent of our United Methodist Church for many years.

My dad was superintendent of our Sunday School too. Didn't get us any perks, though lol

 

[Scrabaholic]

It goes for everybody. The difference, though, is the pro-lifer's aren't murdering the innocent unborn.

Neither are the pro-choicers....

 

[Scrabaholic]

And those are all things you support then?

WTH???

New Testament matters to me. A lot actually.

Why?

 

[Removable Mind]

Don't you people know the difference between science and common language usage?

Oh, come on Prometeus...put you hand on your tummy, feel around a little bit. If something kicks, you definitely have to get that checked out. And I want to be your manager. :mrgreen:

 

[prometeus]

Oh, come on Prometeus...put you hand on your tummy, feel around a little bit. If something kicks, you definitely have to get that checked out. And I want to be your manager. :mrgreen:

Damn, I knew that that beautiful t-bone was too rare...
You think you cold manage a very and I mean VERY nice Cognac so we can quiet this kicking steer?

 

[choiceone]

Does He only make some then?

There is a place in the Bible where God tells some people, "You are not my children" and "I am not your mother's husband," but I don't feel like looking up the reference for you.

Since people who committed adultery or even premarital sex were punished with death according to the Mosaic code, if women who did that were caught and had become pregnant, their embryos/fetuses would die when they were put to death. No law was put in place for them to give birth before being put to death, as those pregnancies would be a function of a crime against the laws of God.

There is also a description of a Jewish religious ritual administered for a husband if he claims his wife has committed adultery. The wife is given a certain drink, and if she is guilty of adultery, she will miscarry and die, but if she is not, she won't. In other words, if she became pregnant by adultery, induced miscarriage would not be wrong, presumably because the pregnancy came from a crime against the laws of God.

Of course, Christianity is based on love, so there is no reason why we can't forgive the lawbreaker and, therefore, allow the person who committed adultery or premarital sex to continue living. Young people who had premarital sex could maybe get married if they want to.

If you want to attribute ectopic pregnancies and anencephalic fetuses and fetuses who cause the pregnant women to die and rape pregnancies to God, go ahead, but frankly, I have more respect for God than to attribute to him the origin of our flawed, sinful, harmful and even life-threatening objective empirical perceptions.

And how did Mary "test" the angel Gabriel?

Mary listened to what the angel had to say, and from that, got some information as to gender and destiny of the child and whose child it would be, and then asked a question which she obviously felt had to be answered before she would consent: How will this happen, since I have not known a man?" and she got an answer, a holy spirit would come to her and she would be overshadowed by the most High and that's why what would be born of her would be called the Son of God.

And she then gave a conditional consent, not a blanket consent to pregnancy. She said, "Be it unto me according to thy word," so she only consented to pregnancy according to the words of the angel. She didn't consent to pregnancy that would result in a child who was of another gender or destiny or parentage or method of getting pregnant.

Did you imagine that the mother of Jesus Christ was just some ignorant, overly credible, blindly obedient girl? She was an intelligent, careful woman, despite her youth.

 

[JayDubya]

Well, here ya go again. Pretending to know what god does or doesn't. You don't know if god is inspiring women to have abortions. You don't know when a divine intervention occurs...period, regardless of the possibilities.

You don't know when free will begins or ends...if you can't know when god's will ends or begins. There might be individuals who are under god's will their entire existence...on a mission from god.

And that includes how god might judge people.

We're Homo sapiens. Sapient. Sapience means judgement.

We have a wide variety of faiths we can choose from, or none at all.

And this here person judges any "god" that supports aggressive killing, and judges them unworthy. Such an evil and worthless thing would be unworthy of my worship, or anyone's worship.

So yes, someone who follows any religion predicated on the goodness of its deity does know that "God" isn't inspiring heinous acts of aggressive violence, or whatever it is, it is not "God."

 

[Removable Mind]

We're Homo sapiens. Sapient. Sapience means judgement.

We have a wide variety of faiths we can choose from, or none at all.

And this here person judges any "god" that supports aggressive killing, and judges them unworthy. Such an evil and worthless thing would be unworthy of my worship, or anyone's worship.

So yes, someone who follows any religion predicated on the goodness of its deity does know that "God" isn't inspiring heinous acts of aggressive violence, or whatever it is, it is not "God."

Oh please, Jay...I filled your sweet tooth eariler today with some inspiring wisdom. Let's wait till tomorrow. Besides, your BFF, X...took too much of my energy today to get all railed up tonight.