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Why Race-Realism is Pseudoscience

Aside from such research being blatant racist propaganda many people obviously view it as socially harmful because of its implications of intellectual superiority and inferiority among races which has major social implications.
And here in this one sentence lies the entire motivation for the baseless denial of genetic variances in racial intelligence_

The left-wing extremist ideology demands they place Political Correctness ahead of science, reasoning and common sense_
 
And here in this one sentence lies the entire motivation for the baseless denial of genetic variances in racial intelligence_

The left-wing extremist ideology demands they place Political Correctness ahead of science, reasoning and common sense_

Racialism is not scientific, reasonable nor is it common sense. It is ideologically driven propaganda. What you refuse to accept is that scientific research on human genetic refuted these ideas decades ago. The theory of mental differences between races is a throwback to old 19th century views of race that saw human traits as hereditary biological units that differed from population to population and that these differences could be placed in to a hierarchy thus ranking races by the ability and worth. Mainstream science has objected these ideas because they are unscientific. The fact that they are also socially harmful and that some people are concerned about this propaganda being spread does not make the fringe theory of racialism any more credible.


Thanks for linking that video...I'm in the middle of one of Graves' books, and it was great to see his presentation.

(I'd have Liked the post if it the feature was available).

I'm glad you liked it. Which book are you reading?
 
Well, if this question were going to be explored, there'd first have to be a consensus on what constitutes "intelligence". Homo sapiens are approximately 250,000 years old, as a species.

For what percent of that time would you personally consider scoring well on a standardized test a "survival skill"?
100%. Your misleading statement is like saying that chemicals didn't exist until people invented chemistry. If they had a test for intelligence 250,000 years ago, those who did best would have had the best life. Besides, the few remains we have don't indicate the survivability of a world-wide species, but only of the people who lived in those particular places at those specific times.
 
You pulled the Marxist card first. The funny thing about that is that you can not accurately ascribe the negative aspects of Marxism to me or the scholars I cite while I can accurately label you a racist and charge the scholars you cite with advancing a racist agenda. I'm not assuming anything. Racialism has already been exposed as pseudoscience. That exposure is the topic of this thread. It's not real science and the motivation for such research is to argue that racist stereotypes have a basis in reality that are rooted in genetic differences between humans. Once that is established racists believe they can make a stronger case for racist social policies like racial separatism. Personally I would consider racist views and policy recommendations to be immoral even if racialism were right. But it is important to point out that it is not right and it is not science. It's propaganda. Any reasonably intelligent person can recognize it as such.
High crime rates, jobs given to incompetents, welfare money wasted on the self-indulgent, etc. could be used as evidence that anti-racialism is immoral. Integration causes disintegration, if that body of evidence turns out to be more significant than the contrary claims. So your ideal world may actually be a nightmare if society is changed to fit that ideal. Which happened before in the case of Communism.
 
I'm glad you liked it. Which book are you reading?

I'm chapter-hopping among several books, among them is Graves' The Race Myth. Last week I finished off Race Decoded, by Catherine Bliss.

Amazon.com: Race Decoded: The Genomic Fight for Social Justice (9780804774086): Catherine Bliss: Books

Slow and repetitive at times, but a great glimpse into the political and professional struggles over scientific racism. One of the most shocking revelations in it was that funding proposals for obtaining things like research grants must -- by federal law -- have their results couched in terms of census "race" -- despite the uncontested recognition that census "race" is a matter of self- and social identification! It also offers a kind of roll-call of top level geneticists and population scientists, and their strategies for dealing with the grand=canyon-sized gap between the popular usage of "race" vs. substantive scientific bases for studying human difference.

(You know, basically the mountains of evidence which folks who hold stances like that of Hicup refuse to acknowledge because even a cursory glance at it destroys their entire position).
 
One wonders if Certain Persons have noticed how very few people have been interested in joining in this discussion....
 
High crime rates, jobs given to incompetents, welfare money wasted on the self-indulgent, etc. could be used as evidence that anti-racialism is immoral. Integration causes disintegration, if that body of evidence turns out to be more significant than the contrary claims. So your ideal world may actually be a nightmare if society is changed to fit that ideal. Which happened before in the case of Communism.

The racialist claim that the trends you mentioned are mediated by genetic differences between races is unscientific. Crime for instance depends on a culture's definition of crime and is therefore plastic rather than some Life-History trait as imagined by certain racialists.

My ideal society is one based on Egalitarian principles. In fact if you take America as an example Egalitarianism was a value that the Founding Fathers desired for their citizens. But they practiced it hypocritically for most of American history. While the American dream was a reality for some people it was a nightmare for others. It was only by recognizing that Egalitarian values were applicable to the rights of all citizens that we have gained so much progress as a society in terms of race-relations. That positive trend can continue if we shun racism and focus on being pro-equality with our social policies and as individuals with the attitude we take towards people in our daily lives.
 
The racialist claim that the trends you mentioned are mediated by genetic differences between races is unscientific. Crime for instance depends on a culture's definition of crime and is therefore plastic rather than some Life-History trait as imagined by certain racialists.

"It's unscientific!" = I don't like it. Demanding infinitely precise definitions of crime is a clear red herring when we are dealing with such disparities. The murder and rape rate of blacks in America is about 10 times higher than whites. Nit picking over the borderline cases is a refusal to face the facts.

My ideal society is one based on Egalitarian principles. In fact if you take America as an example Egalitarianism was a value that the Founding Fathers desired for their citizens. But they practiced it hypocritically for most of American history. While the American dream was a reality for some people it was a nightmare for others. It was only by recognizing that Egalitarian values were applicable to the rights of all citizens that we have gained so much progress as a society in terms of race-relations. That positive trend can continue if we shun racism and focus on being pro-equality with our social policies and as individuals with the attitude we take towards people in our daily lives.

Von Brunn said:
The BOAS proposal that Mankind is composed of interchangeable races equally endowed with courage, intelligence, character, ability, discipline, ambition, morals, etc., would have caused the signers of the U.S. Constitution to grab their rifles. Moreover, the Founders believed in meritocracy NOT rank-in-reverse: privates running the army, and media-moguls running the U.S. Congress. Founders expected America always to be a bastion of the West. Not a racial refuse dump. FRANZ BOAS, JEW, more than any other individual, destroyed the Founders' visions. BOASISM seeks a Communist equality — not equality of opportunity or equality-of-merit but of results — which requires transferring money from achievers, who earned it, to the incapable, indigent and “disadvantaged.” Since achievers resist dispossession the government is given more regulatory and police powers. The under-achievers — a large votingbloc — very much favor receiving your tax-dollars from politicians who will give away anything (of yours) for a vote. How else can degenerates like U.S. Senator Ted Kennedy remain in office? In the U.S., today, 60% of the National Budget goes toward Welfare. Distributors of this immense wealth are low IQ Negroes (the “rising middle-class") employed by local, state, and federal governments at high IQ salaries.

My house is a decayed house, and the JEW squats on the window sill, the owner, Spawned in some estamint of Antwerp, Blistered in Brussels, Patched and peeled in London...
T.S. ELIOT, from “Gerontion.”​
 
"It's unscientific!" = I don't like it. Demanding infinitely precise definitions of crime is a clear red herring when we are dealing with such disparities. The murder and rape rate of blacks in America is about 10 times higher than whites. Nit picking over the borderline cases is a refusal to face the facts.

It's Unscientific = It's Pseudoscience and I can establish with credible sources that it is

Joseph Graves said:
Rushton's analysis of the sex hormone data is crucial to his attempt to claim that r-selected people, Africans, are predisposed to criminality. He characterized these particularly victimizing crimes as the opposite of "altruism" (a K-selected trait). He reprised Ellis's (1987) argument, saying that "across societies, blacks had higher rates of victimizing crime rates than whites, and in turn, whites had higher rates that Orientals" (Rushton, 1995, p. 215). Ellis concluded that the same underlying neurohormonal mechanisms that regulate the racial difference in reproductive strategies are mediating the difference in crime rate also. This assertion ignores the historical and present racism of the U.S. criminal justice system. His theory has a severe problem explaining the Japanese rape and enslavement of Korean women during World War II, the very high rate of Chinese opium addiction following the Opium Wars, and the European perpetration of kidnap, confinement, rape, and murder of Africans during U.S. slavery. The general problem here is attempting to ascribe a genetic basis to a behavior (criminality or law abidingness) that is socially defined (and hence plastic).


Source: Graves, J.L. (2002) The misuse of life history theory: J.P. Rushton and the pseudoscience of racial hierarchy. In J. Fish ed. Understanding Race and Intelligence, Lawrence Erlbaum Associates, pp. 43 - 57.


Rather than entertaining racist pseudoscience we can alternatively look for practical solutions to dealing with high crime rates in certain communities:


 
Von Brunn said:
The BOAS proposal that Mankind is composed of interchangeable races equally endowed with courage, intelligence, character, ability, discipline, ambition, morals, etc., would have caused the signers of the U.S. Constitution to grab their rifles. Moreover, the Founders believed in meritocracy NOT rank-in-reverse: privates running the army, and media-moguls running the U.S. Congress. Founders expected America always to be a bastion of the West. Not a racial refuse dump. FRANZ BOAS, JEW, more than any other individual, destroyed the Founders' visions. BOASISM seeks a Communist equality — not equality of opportunity or equality-of-merit but of results — which requires transferring money from achievers, who earned it, to the incapable, indigent and “disadvantaged.” Since achievers resist dispossession the government is given more regulatory and police powers. The under-achievers — a large votingbloc — very much favor receiving your tax-dollars from politicians who will give away anything (of yours) for a vote. How else can degenerates like U.S. Senator Ted Kennedy remain in office? In the U.S., today, 60% of the National Budget goes toward Welfare. Distributors of this immense wealth are low IQ Negroes (the “rising middle-class") employed by local, state, and federal governments at high IQ salaries.

My house is a decayed house, and the JEW squats on the window sill, the owner, Spawned in some estamint of Antwerp, Blistered in Brussels, Patched and peeled in London...
T.S. ELIOT, from “Gerontion.”


First you quote Hitler and now Von Brunn? You really hate Jews don't you?


James Von Brunn: An ADL Backgrounder


James Wenneker Von Brunn, the suspect in the June 2009 shooting at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C., died at a North Carolina federal prison on January 6, 2010, while awaiting trial. According to authorities,Von Brunn entered the museum on June 10 and shot and killed Stephen T. Johns, a black security guard, before being shot and wounded by other officers at the scene. Von Brunn could have received the dealth penalty if convicted of murder and other charges. Von Brunn was a long-time neo-Nazi and white supremacist who had vehemently expressed his anti-Semitic and racist views for decades—and sometimes acted on them as well. Von Brunn, 89, was a peripheral but well-respected figure among American white supremacists.


 
The murder and rape rate of blacks in America is about 10 times higher than whites.

And this has nothing to do with race:

Tim Wise said:
Rather, higher black crime rates reflect the specific conditions that stem from a number of socioeconomic realities that disproportionately face the black community. Now sure, some of those conditions stem from a history of discrimination in housing and elsewhere, such that blacks have been concentrated in highly populated urban areas, with less job opportunity, etc (See, Massey and Denton, American Apartheid, Harvard Press, 1994; or Oliver and Shapiro, Black Wealth/White Wealth: A New Perspective on Racial Inequality. Routledge, 1995). But it is also due to fairly impersonal economic developments, such as the collapse of manufacturing in the cities, and the resulting job crisis. In neither case am I blaming racism per se, in the sense we traditionally think of the term. Not at all.

Anyway, as I was saying, according to several studies, socioeconomic variables explain the difference between white and black violence rates, and where economic conditions are comparable between whites and blacks, there are no significant racial crime differences (Krivo, L.J. and R.D. Peterson, 1996. “Extremely Disadvantaged Neighborhoods and Urban Crime,” Social Forces. 75, 2. December: 619-48.; Chasin, Barbara, 1997. Inequality and Violence in the United States: Casualties of Capitalism. NJ: Humanities Press International: 49). In fact, the correlation between economic variables and crime are remarkably consistent from one society to the next. Evidence gathered from more than thirty countries has found that race and ethnicity have far less to do with crime than these environmental factors (Mukherjee, Satyanshu. 1999. “Ethnicity and Crime,” Trends and Issues in Crime and Criminal Justice. Australian Institute of Criminology: Canberra. May: 1).

Although whites also suffer poverty, black poverty is more severe and more likely to correlate with crime. Seven out of ten poor whites live in stable, mostly non-poor neighborhoods, while eighty-five percent of the black poor live in mostly poor areas (Johnson, Calvin and Chanchalat Chanhatasilpa, 2003. “The Race/Ethnicity and Poverty Nexus of Violent Crime: Reconciling Differences in Chicago’s Community Area Homicide Rates,” in Violent Crime: Assessing Race and Ethnic Differences. Darnell Hawkins, ed., Cambridge University Press: 98.; also, Smith, Robert C. 1995. Racism in the Post Civil Rights Era: Now You See it, Now You Don’t. SUNY Press: 128).

Blacks are three times more likely to live in extreme poverty than whites (less than half the poverty line) (Sklar, Holly, 1998. “Let Them Eat Cake,” Z Magazine, November: 31), and six times more likely to live in concentrated poverty neighborhoods (Wachtel, Paul L. 1999. Race in the Mind of America: Breaking the Vicious Circle Between Blacks and Whites. NY: Routledge, 294, fn 15). Indeed, three-quarters of persons living in concentrated poverty neighborhoods are people of color (powell, john, 2001. “Socioeconomic School Integration,” Poverty and Race Research Action Council Bulletin, 10: 6, November/December: 6).

Looking specifically at homicide rates, a study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association found that crowded housing was the key to higher murder rates among blacks in the U.S. When census tracts with similar incomes, population density and housing conditions are compared, racial murder rate differences evaporate, (Pope, John, 1995, “Murder linked to dense poverty,” New Orleans Times-Picayune. June 14). because the poorest neighborhoods have similar homicide rates, no matter racial composition (Johnson, Calvin and Chanchalat Chanhatasilpa, 2003. “The Race/Ethnicity and Poverty Nexus of Violent Crime: Reconciling Differences in Chicago’s Community Area Homicide Rates,” in Violent Crime: Assessing Race and Ethnic Differences. Darnell Hawkins, ed., Cambridge University Press: 106).

A 1990 meta-analysis of twenty-one different studies on homicide, covering thirty years of research found much the same thing: among all the factors positively correlated with higher homicide rates, two of the most significant were unemployment rates and community resource deprivation (Land, K., P.L. McCall and L.E. Cohen, 1990. “Structural Covariates of Homicide Rates: Are There Any Invariances Across Time and Social Space?” American Journal of Sociology, 95: 922-63).

Indeed, racial crime gaps in the U.S. are largely a reflection of geography. Since blacks are more concentrated in cities, which have higher crime rates no matter their racial makeup, the crime rate among blacks is skewed upwards; but this has nothing to do with any genetic or cultural predisposition to crime. In large measure, because cities are more crowded, and because crowded areas tend to increase levels of anonymity amongst residents, and chip away at the levels of organization in a neighborhood, they will be the site of elevated levels of crime (Johnson and Chanhatasilpa, 2003: 97). Adjusting violent crime rates for levels of urbanization alone cuts the racial disproportion in half, with economic conditions explaining the remainder (Zimring, Franklin and Gordon Hawkins, 1997. Crime is Not the Problem: Lethal Violence in America. NY: Oxford University Press: 82-3; 234-236).

In fact, absent a litany of socioeconomic factors, there is no substantial independent relationship between a community’s racial composition and its homicide rates (Johnson and Chanhatasilpa, 2003: 92). Although the homicide rate among “middle class” blacks is higher than that for middle class whites, the reasons for this have nothing to do with race: middle class blacks tend to live in much closer proximity to poor communities, tend to be substantially less well off than middle class whites, and are thus exposed to more negative social influences than whites of their same general class group (Ibid, 107).

The role of social and economic environment and community conditions in determining crime rates is particularly evident among juveniles. A comprehensive analysis of homicide and robbery data, which looked at the importance of such things as race, poverty, family disruption and unemployment in determining crime rates in these categories, found that black male joblessness explained black family disruption, which in turn was highly related to black murder and robbery rates, particularly for youth (Hawkins, Darnell, John H. Laub, Janet L. Lauritsen, and Lynn Cothern, 2000. “Race, Ethnicity and Serious and Violent Juvenile Offending,” Juvenile Justice Bulletin. U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Juvenile Programs, Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, June.)

Further research has demonstrated that racial differences in delinquent behavior can be explained entirely by the highly unequal community conditions faced by white youth and those of color (Ibid). One study of white and black youth in the Pittsburgh area, for example, found that Black youth residing in neighborhoods more similar to their non-poor white counterparts, were no more likely to engage in acts of delinquency than their white peers (Peoples, F. and R. Loeber, 1994. “Do Individual Factors and Neighborhood Context Explain Ethnic Differences in Juvenile Delinquency?” Journal of Quantitative Criminology. 10, 2. June: 141-57).

Examination of longitudinal data indicates that once an assortment of economic and social variables are controlled for by the common social science technique of regression analysis, blacks are no more likely than whites to commit crimes, are less likely to commit property crimes than whites, and Latinos are also less likely to commit crimes than non-Hispanics (Crutchfield, Robert D. 1995. “Ethnicity, Labor Markets and Crime,” in Ethnicity, Race, and Crime: Perspectives Across Time and Place, Darnell F. Hawkins, ed., State University of New York Press: 200-201).
---Source

Tim Wise is Jewish, so Mikemikev is almost certainly going to write off his argument as J00ish propaganda intended to destroy the white race, but I'm still posting it for the benefit of sentient readers.
 
but I'm still posting it for the benefit of sentient readers.

Everyone who agrees with you is "sentient". How convenient.

Here in reality, black crime cuts across socio-economic grades. In depression America, impoverished and starving whites didn't "cap" each other over "bitches". But white racism is the reason they do that according to you. :roll:

Examining Tim Wise's Dubious Racial Statistics
 
Everyone who agrees with you is "sentient". How convenient.

Here in reality, black crime cuts across socio-economic grades. In depression America, impoverished and starving whites didn't "cap" each other over "bitches". But white racism is the reason they do that according to you. :roll:

Examining Tim Wise's Dubious Racial Statistics

Now you are citing Birdman Bryant. Does anyone else see why I don't take the claim that people like Mikemikev aren't racists seriously?

Bryant was one of the most well-known internet racists who believed in a Jewish Conspiracy to destroy Western Civilization and that Black people are sub-human. This is Mikemikev's source of information. Tim Wise by the way responded to those arguments.

Tim Wise » Flipping a Bird: Or, Why People Shouldn
 
Now you are citing Birdman Bryant. Does anyone else see why I don't take the claim that people like Mikemikev aren't racists seriously?

Bryant was one of the most well-known internet racists who believed in a Jewish Conspiracy to destroy Western Civilization and that Black people are sub-human. This is Mikemikev's source of information. Tim Wise by the way responded to those arguments.

Tim Wise » Flipping a Bird: Or, Why People Shouldn

Indeed, my original source was a rebuttal to the Bryant article Mikemikev posted afterward. Talk about incompetence.
 
Indeed, my original source was a rebuttal to the Bryant article Mikemikev posted afterward. Talk about incompetence.

I notice that your source is my counter source. LOL!

There's really no debate going on here any more. Hopefully other posters will read this thread and recognize that this "race-realism" stuff is just racist propaganda.

You need look no further than the views of the posters who support this stuff and the sources they cite to defend it to recognize it for what it is.
 
Here is Birdman Bryant's unequivocal demolition of Wise:

"[Wise continues:] But even if we compute the white totals as Taylor does, without breaking out Hispanic victims of "black crime," his position is without merit. In 2002, whites, including Latinos, were about 81.5 percent of the population (3). That same year, whites (including Latinos) were 51 percent of the victims of violent crimes committed by blacks, meaning that whites were victimized by blacks less often than would have been expected by random chance, given the extent to which whites were available to be victimized (4).

[Birdman responds:] Wise's logic here can only be called bizarre. What he apparently wants you to believe is that 81.5% of black crimes 'ought' to be perpetrated on whites, because the latter are 81.5% of the population; but since only 51% of black crimes are perpetrated on whites, blacks are less of a threat than 'expected'. Now the problem with this argument is that it tacitly assumes that blacks and whites are equally and evenly mixed thruout society, but of course they are not. This is important because many crimes are due to momentary opportunity or passion, and such crimes will then necessarily be perpetrated on those who are nearby. But since blacks tend to cluster with other blacks, such crimes will be perpetrated on other blacks, not 'randomly'; and this then accounts for why black crime hits whites only 51% of the time when they are 81.5% of the population. Furthermore, this cannot be used to bolster the notion that blacks are 'less of a threat to whites than expected', as Wise attempts to do, because blacks are not mixed equally among whites. But there is more to the matter than this. For let us ask, What does it mean to say that a given group is a threat to whites in the matter of crime? The answer is that the group is a threat if the rate of crimes against whites increases as a result of the group's being introduced into the white community. And when we introduce a group into the white community whose crime rate is 9 times that of whites, chances are excellent that the crime rate against whites will indeed increase. (It will not NECESSARILY increase, however: It is conceivable, if extremely unlikely, that the group would perpetrate crime only on itself.)

[Wise continues:] As for the claim that blacks victimize whites at rates that are far higher than the reverse, though true, this statistic is meaningless, for a few obvious but overlooked reasons, first among them the simple truth that if whites are more available as potential victims, we would naturally expect black criminals to victimize whites more often than white criminals would victimize blacks. Examining data from 2002, there were indeed 4.5 times more black-on-white violent crimes than the reverse (5). While this may seem to support Taylor's position, it actually destroys it, because the interracial crime gap, though seemingly large, is smaller than random chance would have predicted. The critical factor ignored by Taylor is the extent to which whites and blacks encounter each other in the first place. Because of ongoing racial isolation and de facto segregation, the two group's members do not encounter one another at rates commensurate with their shares of the population: a fact that literally torpedoes the claims in The Color of Crime. As sociologist Robert O'Brian has noted (using Census data), the odds of a given white person (or white criminal) encountering a black person are only about three percent. On the other hand, the odds of a given black person (or black criminal) encountering a white person are nineteen times greater, or fifty-seven percent (6), meaning the actual interracial victimization gap between black-on-white and white-on-black crime is smaller than one would expect.

[Birdman responds:] The picture which Wise is painting here is that crime is purely a matter of probability, rather than a matter of choice. That is, Wise seems to be saying that because blacks encounter more whites than blacks, black-on-white crime will be more prevalent, because crime occurs randomly, rather than by choice. But while some crime does indeed occur randomly (earlier we mentioned crimes of passion and opportunity, which might fit the description of randomness), much crime is a matter of choice. And if blacks, like Willie Horton, want to go to 'where the money is', they are more likely to choose whites, or white-owned businesses, as victims, rather than blacks, who are typically poorer, and who are their racial 'bruthas' against the 'white devils'. Thus it is illegitimate for Wise to try to explain away the greater frequency of black-on-white crime as a mere epiphenomenon of uneven racial mixing -- a tactic, incidentally, which is precisely contrary to his earlier trick of trying to make the case that blacks are not a threat to whites because 'randomness' shows that whites should have been victims of blacks 81.5% of the time when it was only 51%.

[Wise continues:] In 2002, blacks committed a little more than 1.2 million violent crimes, while whites committed a little more than three million violent crimes (7). If each black criminal had a 57 percent chance of encountering (and thus potentially victimizing) a white person, this means that over the course of 2002, blacks should have been expected to victimize roughly 690,000 whites. But in truth, blacks victimized whites only 614,176 times that year (8). Conversely, if each white criminal had only a three percent chance of encountering and thus victimizing a black person, this means that over the course of 2002, whites would have been expected to victimize roughly 93,000 blacks. But in truth, whites victimized blacks 135,931 times: almost 50 percent more often than would be expected by random chance (9). Indeed, given relative crime rates as well as rates of interracial encounter, random chance would have predicted the ratio of black-on-white to white-on-black victimization at roughly 7.4 to one. Yet, as the data makes clear, there were only 4.5 times more black-on-white crimes than white-on-black crimes in 2002. In other words, given encounter ratios, black criminals victimize whites less often than could be expected, while white criminals victimize blacks more often than could be expected.

[Birdman responds:] Here again Wise is using the equal mix/random encounter theory to 'prove' that black crime is 'better' and white crime 'worse' than it 'should' be. Since we have already exploded this reasoning, we shall not comment further. We do need to say, however, that the above reasoning exhibits a clear case of Wise's absurd liberal blindness. In particular, if blacks commit 1.2 million violent crimes when they are 13% of the population, while whites commit less than three times as many when they are 85% of the population this means that blacks are committing almost eight times as many violent crimes as whites per capita. That's 800% more. And that's a hell of a testament to the fact that blacks are a violent, dangerous, crime- prone bunch of...."

SOURCE: Response to Tim Wise's ZNet Commentary "The Color of Deception" - John Birdman Bryant

Here is Wise's tl;dr BS response.

Look at this crap:

Secondly, although the number of black-on-white rapes was higher than the reverse, to be sure, the multiple is nowhere near 50:1. Numerically it is a little more than 2 to 1. On a per capita basis, since whites are roughly 6 times more prevalent in the population than blacks (as of 2002), this would mean that on a per capita basis, any given black person was about 12 times more likely to rape a white person than vice versa.

Now perhaps you are thinking at this point, “OK, whatever: whether it’s 50 to 1 or 12 to 1, that’s a huge disproportion!” And that’s true, sort of, though not nearly as meaningful as it seems.

To begin with, as I explain in my piece “The Color of Deception,” whites and blacks do not encounter each other at rates that are comparable. Because of residential and spatial isolation from one another, this won’t surprise anyone reading this, I imagine. Indeed, according to Census data, presented by criminologist Robert O’Brian (the footnote for this one is in the original Color of Deception article, which has now been critiqued on Bryant’s website, and which notes can be viewed there), any given black person is about 19 times more likely to encounter a white person than vice versa.
:roll:
 
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Birdman Bryant said:
And that's a hell of a testament to the fact that blacks are a violent, dangerous, crime- prone bunch of....

Bunch of what? :roll:

Bryant's arguments are ridiculous. He tried to distort Wise's argument which was that statistically because Blacks are more likely to encounter Whites at random than vice versa Black criminals are more likely to have White victims than White criminals are to have Black victims. Despite that statistically Black criminals victimize Whites at a lower percentage than chance would allow. This suggests that Black criminals are not targeting Whites as victims at an alarming rate which is what racists who agree with Bryant want people to believe. Wise doesn't challenge the fact that Black Americans are overrepresented in violent crime rates but attributes this to Socio-Economic variables. Bryant bringing that up was a moot point and a cheap attempt to make racist generalizations about Blacks. It also was not Wise's contention that all crime was random but rather that if there was a popular trend of Black criminals choosing Whites to victimize we would expect the Black-on-White crime rate to be higher than chance would allow.

Certainly SOME Black criminals choose Whites as victims do so because the victim is White and therefore target them out of racist hostility or because they think they can get more money out of them if they are wealthy. The most horrific of these crimes are the ones that White Supremacists report on their websites for shock value in order to spread their racist propaganda. But in reality most crime against White people is White-on-White. In fact over 80% of crimes committed against Whites were by other Whites. Black-on-White crime statistically really is the product of mainly chance encounters. A White person is more likely to be robbed, beaten or raped by another White person than anyone else.

Here's a good article on the irony of the White racist's arguments about Black-on-White crime:

What if blacks talked about black-on-white murder the way whites talk about slavery or Trayvon? « Abagond
 
It's patently obvious that equal mix/random encounter is a BS assumption. Blacks tend to live around other blacks.

And I notice you have no response to this:

Birdman said:
In particular, if blacks commit 1.2 million violent crimes when they are 13% of the population, while whites commit less than three times as many when they are 85% of the population this means that blacks are committing almost eight times as many violent crimes as whites per capita. That's 800% more. And that's a hell of a testament to the fact that blacks are a violent, dangerous, crime- prone bunch of....

because there isn't one.
 
"White" people commit the vast majority of white-collar crimes. Does this mean "white" people have some kind of "racial" proclivity towards embezzlement, fraud, savings-and-loan scandals, insider trading, etc?

If one works from a racist perspective, then of course.

If one rejects racism, then one must look to other explanations (like, for example, "white" men being disproportionately represented among the ranks of high level executives and finance, and thus having more opportunity to commit white-collar crimes in the first place).

I'd also add that the racist notion that "white" people are "racially" inclined towards white-collar crime suffers from the same basic logical failure as ANY "racial" explanation of learned behaviors: there is no genetic or biological material substantively connected to socially-defined entities (like criminality, for example). It's not just that one's biology doesn't lead to criminality, but rather that it CAN'T, because criminality is a social identification, not an empirical one. After all, is Bernie Madoff millions of times more criminal than most other criminals (based upon the financial damage)? The whole mess is nonsense from the start.
 
"White" people commit the vast majority of white-collar crimes. Does this mean "white" people have some kind of "racial" proclivity towards embezzlement, fraud, savings-and-loan scandals, insider trading, etc?

If one works from a racist perspective, then of course.

If one rejects racism, then one must look to other explanations (like, for example, "white" men being disproportionately represented among the ranks of high level executives and finance, and thus having more opportunity to commit white-collar crimes in the first place).

I'd also add that the racist notion that "white" people are "racially" inclined towards white-collar crime suffers from the same basic logical failure as ANY "racial" explanation of learned behaviors: there is no genetic or biological material substantively connected to socially-defined entities (like criminality, for example). It's not just that one's biology doesn't lead to criminality, but rather that it CAN'T, because criminality is a social identification, not an empirical one. After all, is Bernie Madoff millions of times more criminal than most other criminals (based upon the financial damage)? The whole mess is nonsense from the start.

So you're denying that the whole field of behaviour genetics is valid because "everything is subjective". Good luck with that.
 
It's patently obvious that equal mix/random encounter is a BS assumption. Blacks tend to live around other blacks.

And I notice you have no response to this:

Birdman said:
In particular, if blacks commit 1.2 million violent crimes when they are 13% of the population, while whites commit less than three times as many when they are 85% of the population this means that blacks are committing almost eight times as many violent crimes as whites per capita. That's 800% more. And that's a hell of a testament to the fact that blacks are a violent, dangerous, crime- prone bunch of....


because there isn't one.

I clearly did respond to that quote in my last post. And you still don't understand the argument of Tim Wise. He is not assuming that every crime that occurs happens at random. He is saying that if Black criminals were on average targeting Whites as victims then Black-on-White crime would be overrepresented in the total Black crime rate. So if 82% of that population is White and 92% of violent crimes committed by Blacks are committed against Whites then a large number of violent Black criminals are going out of their way to seek Whites out as victims. But it is far less than 82% (about 51%) which indicates that Black criminals are not targeting Whites as victims at a high rate. Black criminals actually victimize Whites less than a chance encounter would allow.

That statement should be simple to understand for anyone with an elementary understanding of statistics.

Wise is not saying anything about the motive of Black criminals but rather making the point that if it was true that Blacks criminals were generally prone to target Whites as victims they would do so at a percentage that exceeds expectation of how many White victims they could potentially have.


So you're denying that the whole field of behaviour genetics is valid because "everything is subjective". Good luck with that.

The field of behavior-genetics investigates innate tendencies (or a genetic component) towards natural behaviors.

Rushton and like-minded scientists have bastardized the field by implying that there is a heritable component to any socially defined behavior.


Richard Lewontin said:
Like all biological determinists, Rushton is impelled to show that the characteristics he cares about are genetically different between groups. He shares with Jensen the error of supposing that heritability of variation within groups tells him something about the causes of the differences between groups, but he makes an error of taste that Jensen would never make, and so brings the whole crackpot enterprise down.

In a fit of silliness, Rushton tries to convince his reader that everything is heritable in some nontrivial sense, and that the numerically low heritabilities of each socially constructed attribute are collective evidence of an important genetic difference between "races."

We learn, for example, from a sample of seventy-six pairs of friends surveyed by Rushton, that the heritabilities of attitudes toward the death penalty, jazz, the royal family, apartheid, censorship, military service, white superiority, and divorce are all between 40 percent and 50 percent, while much lower heritabilities were found for attitudes toward caning, nudist camps, and pajama parties. He was, curiously, unable to calculate the heritabilities for opinions on evolution, modern art, and striptease shows. The probability of serving in Vietnam had a heritability of 35 percent.

Source: Review Of Genes and Genitals Transition, No. 69 (1996), pp. 178-193


It is from this twisted way of thinking that racialists develop the idea that a person is color coded to be a criminal, making them genetically-hardwired to break man-made laws.
 
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You are talking crap. You are an idiot.
 
So you're denying that the whole field of behaviour genetics is valid because "everything is subjective". Good luck with that.

Literacy is not a priority for you, is it?

Your nonsense aside, here's the basic point for OTHER posters who actually are interested in the topic.

Genes are not -- as often falsely and popularly misrepresented -- analogous to a blueprint for the human body. They're more like a recipe. The same DNA can be expressed in strikingly different ways based upon environmental influences as well as the actions of the individual (a twin who hits the gym every day will have a dramatically different form than his counterpart who does not).

Genes can and do code for differing levels of presence of biochemicals, receptors, inhibitors, etc....and then -- after what is often a staggeringly complex interplay of many causal forces -- we end up with discernible phenotypes. Imagined traits like "criminality" are not and indeed cannot be genetically coded for because someone's criminality is -- literally -- determined by human-created laws, not biology. So too with things like thrill-seeking. One may find a deeply contingent and qualified linkage between certain genes and an "adrenaline junkie" reaction to high-risk or very physically exciting activities (skydiving, contact martial arts, etc.), but there is absolutely NO SUCH THING as a "skydiving" gene. The addiction to adrenaline rushes some daredevil types seem to exhibit would, in different contexts, find very different articulation.

So can one find and make a case for genetic linkages to biochemical processes indirectly tied to specific activities? Sure.

Can one reasonably identify those specific activities as genetic? Absolutely not. Genes don't have any kind of conceptual or reflective capacity. So we may have genes for biochemical effects associated with the rush of risky behaviors (or conversely, with risk aversion), but we do NOT have genes specifically for such ridiculous notions as biological criminality, or (for that matter) for speaking German, or for preferring (specifically) strawberry ice cream over chocolate. We MAY, however, have genes for things like predisposition towards or away from the cognitive connections more vs. less conducive to learning and speaking languages of a structure similar to German (based upon the generalized patterns, not the specific language), or genes for predisposing us to positive responses to chemicals which happen to be in strawberries (or other foods), but not strawberries specifically.

The notion of genetic criminality is thus as absurd as arguing that someone has "a genetic proclivity towards reciting the Pledge of Allegiance while facing north on odd-numbered Tuesdays."
 
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