Why People Should Hate Public Education

[imagep]

The idea that education (public, private, homeschooled, or any other kind) is anything but indoctrination is just foolishness. Just as people refer to court rulings as "undemocratic" when they disagree with them, and "enlightened" when they do, people like to use the term "indoctrination" as a pejoration when they disagree with just what is being indoctrinated. Teaching children that private property is sacrosanct, or that women and men are equals, or that gays should be treated with respect all constitute indoctrination. The only question is whether you agree with it.

Personally, I view educational indoctrination as a indispensable tool in the hand of society. When cultural values change, a la gay rights or racial equality, indoctrinating students is invaluable in changing the society to meet the values of its vanguard. This is especially true in the case of immigrant students who may be unfamiliar with American values.

Most of my public school experiance was being "indoctrinated" with stuff like math and science and English and arts and pe. I never had a class in gay rates or racial equality.

 

[Moot]

Most of my public school experiance was being "indoctrinated" with stuff like math and science and English and arts and pe. I never had a class in gay rates or racial equality.

But more importantly, you learned to respond to the sound of a bell.

 

[mike2810]

When I grew up the schools taught the basics. (reading, writing, science, math, social studies, etc). The "bullying, social values of good behavior, etc., parents took care of. We didn't have classes on alterative life styles, and don't bully. It was ok to fail a student and make them take the grade again. It was ok to tell them you not up to being on the football team. There were winners and sometimes loosers.

I am not so sure that is happening anymore. It is time to get back to the basics, and for some parents its time to be one.

 

[Dittohead not!]

When I grew up the schools taught the basics. (reading, writing, science, math, social studies, etc). The "bullying, social values of good behavior, etc., parents took care of. We didn't have classes on alterative life styles, and don't bully. It was ok to fail a student and make them take the grade again. It was ok to tell them you not up to being on the football team. There were winners and sometimes loosers.

I am not so sure that is happening anymore. It is time to get back to the basics, and for some parents its time to be one.

it's still happening.

It's just that the fluff is what gets all the attention.

 

[Phys251]

When I grew up the schools taught the basics. (reading, writing, science, math, social studies, etc). The "bullying, social values of good behavior, etc., parents took care of. We didn't have classes on alterative life styles, and don't bully. It was ok to fail a student and make them take the grade again. It was ok to tell them you not up to being on the football team. There were winners and sometimes loosers.

I am not so sure that is happening anymore. It is time to get back to the basics, and for some parents its time to be one.

Many of the same people who say this are the ones that claim that schools don't teach much practical knowledge. Seems that they want to have their cake and eat it too.

 

[nota bene]

Here's what I want: Students who have been given a diploma to have earned it by proving that they're functionally literate and able to write and do math.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Here's what I want: Students who have been given a diploma to have earned it by proving that they're functionally literate and able to write and do math.

Perhaps if only we'd require that students pass a high school exit exam in order to get that diploma. I wonder why it is that no one has thought of that?

 

[Phys251]

Perhaps if only we'd require that students pass a high school exit exam in order to get that diploma. I wonder why it is that no one has thought of that?

France, Korea, many other nations already do that. Makes perfect sense to me. And it puts the primary focus of accountability right where it should be: on the STUDENT.

 

[Dittohead not!]

France, Korea, many other nations already do that. Makes perfect sense to me. And it puts the primary focus of accountability right where it should be: on the STUDENT.

Umm.... satire alert!
Students here have to pass an exit exam, too now.

 

[Phys251]

Umm.... satire alert!
Students here have to pass an exit exam, too now.

Aye, but which states? More specifically, which states have exit exams that actually have reasonably tough standards?

 

[Dittohead not!]

Aye, but which states? More specifically, which states have exit exams that actually have reasonably tough standards?

I don't know. California has one. I thought all states did now.

 

[imagep]

But more importantly, you learned to respond to the sound of a bell.

Ya, and the alarm clock also.

 

[Boo Radley]

I don't know. California has one. I thought all states did now.

Twenty-two states currently[when?] require a test to graduate, 3 others are to phase them in by 2012.

High school graduation examination in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

During 2007-08, the number of states withholding diplomas based on students’ performance on state-mandated high school exit exams increased by one (Washington State). Now a total of 23 states require students to take and pass those tests to receive high school diplomas. Three more states (Arkansas, Maryland, and Oklahoma) will begin withholding diplomas within the next few years, leading to a total of 26 states with such policies by 2012.

(snip)

One of our expert reviewers argues that the variance in exit exam requirements plus the varying alternative paths across states illustrates our nation’s lack of understanding of what a high school diploma represents in terms of knowledge and skill. He explained:

A high school diploma is becoming ever less comparable among states. Years ago, all diplomas represented a number of credits completed and perhaps completion of a minimum competency exam. There was no pretense that a diploma was a measure of knowledge and skill. Now, states are trying to assert that a diploma should be a measure of something, but what exactly varies dramatically. This would be fine if students did not exist in a national economy (let alone a global economy) but, alas, they do.

Furthermore, he asks, “Why not prepare all students for the AP/IB and then allow some lower score on those exams to count?” After all, he explained, “There is no pretense that the state exit exams and the AP/IB are in any way comparable. They are simply measures that legislators deem rigorous. The alternatives,” he concluded, “aren’t really going to get states off the hook as far as getting many more kids to pass the exam requirement.”

http://www.eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED504468.pdf

 

[UtahBill]

Ya, and the alarm clock also.

after decades of getting up at 5AM, I got so I would wake up just before it went off....
Now I am retired, and it took me about 5 years to learn to sleep in til 7AM....

I don't hate public education. It did well by me and most people I know. Some of my friends settled for less, some of my children's friends settled for less. Their choice....most of the time.

 

[marcus903]

Ya, and the alarm clock also.

Lol, this is why schools are dictated as a 'prison'.

Me, being a high school student, don't really have a 'problem' with schools, it's just how the teachers had presumably never felt urine trying to rush out their uthera during class time. Another problem is (I've stated this in several threads, but I just not realizing this is not coming from just school, but the entire country as well), that some of the adults think they're more 'superior' and 'powerful' than the students just because they're grown ups and is over the age of 21.

I don't really think people should 'hate' public eduation because some districts (just like mine) really care about their students and don't want them to be prisons. The issue is, these principals keep hiring or choosing very strict individuals to be administrators. I can guarantee that if the government improved the school system by making more laws, rules, and regulations set for the staff and more rights to the students, that'll ensure that most students enjoy being at school.

I used to think 'math' wasn't needed, it's just that some of those equations and fractions seem to unused by most engineers and technicians.

Oh, not to mention the fact that a majority of the principals honestly thinks that the students are going to care if they are seen in the halls during the first and last 10 minutes.

Other than these above paragraphs, I have no problem with schools.

 

[Phys251]

Lol, this is why schools are dictated as a 'prison'.

Me, being a high school student, don't really have a 'problem' with schools, it's just how the teachers had presumably never felt urine trying to rush out their uthera during class time. Another problem is (I've stated this in several threads, but I just not realizing this is not coming from just school, but the entire country as well), that some of the adults think they're more 'superior' and 'powerful' than the students just because they're grown ups and is over the age of 21.

I don't really think people should 'hate' public eduation because some districts (just like mine) really care about their students and don't want them to be prisons. The issue is, these principals keep hiring or choosing very strict individuals to be administrators. I can guarantee that if the government improved the school system by making more laws, rules, and regulations set for the staff and more rights to the students, that'll ensure that most students enjoy being at school.

I used to think 'math' wasn't needed, it's just that some of those equations and fractions seem to unused by most engineers and technicians.

Oh, not to mention the fact that a majority of the principals honestly thinks that the students are going to care if they are seen in the halls during the first and last 10 minutes.

Other than these above paragraphs, I have no problem with schools.

You mention some points that merit addressing. Our schools are indeed authoritarian places, and going about resolving that is not going to be easy. Still, the need to rework schools in no way equates to the need to punish or abolish them, as some have suggested.

 

[imagep]

Lol, this is why schools are dictated as a 'prison'.

Me, being a high school student, don't really have a 'problem' with schools, it's just how the teachers had presumably never felt urine trying to rush out their uthera during class time. Another problem is (I've stated this in several threads, but I just not realizing this is not coming from just school, but the entire country as well), that some of the adults think they're more 'superior' and 'powerful' than the students just because they're grown ups and is over the age of 21.

I don't really think people should 'hate' public eduation because some districts (just like mine) really care about their students and don't want them to be prisons. The issue is, these principals keep hiring or choosing very strict individuals to be administrators. I can guarantee that if the government improved the school system by making more laws, rules, and regulations set for the staff and more rights to the students, that'll ensure that most students enjoy being at school.

I used to think 'math' wasn't needed, it's just that some of those equations and fractions seem to unused by most engineers and technicians.

Oh, not to mention the fact that a majority of the principals honestly thinks that the students are going to care if they are seen in the halls during the first and last 10 minutes.

Other than these above paragraphs, I have no problem with schools.

Great comments. I highly suspect that you are not the typical public high school student though.

Just wondering, but how do you feel about having required school uniforms?

 

[ReformCollege]

Let's cut to the chase. Yes, there's the argument that public education is a coercive, mandatory environment, but I don't want to talk about that here.

What I want to talk about is how public education indoctrinates children to be exploited.

Public education doesn't teach people social values. The rules of engagement of how to legally stand up for oneself are entirely dismissed. Instead, children are strictly taught academic facts only which are supposedly meaningful because they help children get a job. Even worse, sometimes, teachers will argue it's not all about a job, but about "curiosity" which means they're TOTALLY wasting time.

How many grew up asking, "What am I gunna need this for?"

How many grew up bullied and told, "You're such a tool."?

How many grew up hating the popularity contest despite getting good grades in English classes, getting taught how to communicate ineffectively?

I don't understand what public education is trying to achieve anymore. It seems like the system is deliberately built to make children self-conscious and reinforce social hierarchy behind the guise of meritocracy.

On top of that, teacher unions are tolerated despite the fact that they're professional strangers who don't need to share epistemology with locals. That is they can teach children HOW to think in addition to WHAT to think which can confuse children into not getting along with their parents and neighbors.

In sum, the professionalization of reform couldn't be more psychologically dissociating.

Respectfully disagree. I remember taking a "required" honors Chemistry class back in my second year of high school. The class was rigorous for many of the students, who always cried "what on earth am I ever going to need this for?" My teacher was an outspoken atheist and a liberal, and often drew the ire of more conservative classmates and parents. However, she cared deeply for her students and because of her class, I generally found that not only did I like Chemistry, I was quite good at it. I ended up taking AP the next year, and just have aced all three of my college chemistry courses. I plan on eventually getting a Ph.D in pharmacology and working in a related field. Not to mention, what I have learned in that class has improved my life in thousands of ways, Chemistry in general has played a huge part in refining my analytic thinking skills, problem solving skills, study habits, and test taking skills. Would classes such as Chemistry still be taught under a "real life lessons" based curriculum? Do the findings of rigorous naturalistic studies comply with your idea of "social values?" Whose social values would you teach? Those of anti-intellectualism? Would school become an extension of the church, or do we still have the right to keep religion out of school.

School is meant to learn academic subjects. If you are merely advocated for more "personal improvement" classes to be included into academic subjects, that would be fine. Classes in etiquette, public speaking, etc. are all good ideas. But "academic facts" have a place too, they are after all FACTS.

 

[ReformCollege]

Lol, this is why schools are dictated as a 'prison'.

Me, being a high school student, don't really have a 'problem' with schools, it's just how the teachers had presumably never felt urine trying to rush out their uthera during class time. Another problem is (I've stated this in several threads, but I just not realizing this is not coming from just school, but the entire country as well), that some of the adults think they're more 'superior' and 'powerful' than the students just because they're grown ups and is over the age of 21.

I don't really think people should 'hate' public eduation because some districts (just like mine) really care about their students and don't want them to be prisons. The issue is, these principals keep hiring or choosing very strict individuals to be administrators. I can guarantee that if the government improved the school system by making more laws, rules, and regulations set for the staff and more rights to the students, that'll ensure that most students enjoy being at school.

I used to think 'math' wasn't needed, it's just that some of those equations and fractions seem to unused by most engineers and technicians.

Oh, not to mention the fact that a majority of the principals honestly thinks that the students are going to care if they are seen in the halls during the first and last 10 minutes.

Other than these above paragraphs, I have no problem with schools.

The point of math is to improve analytical thinking skills. Sure some equations may not be used in the future, but learning how to see algebraic solutions to problems and learning how to manipulate numbers and variables is a skill which has benefited me long after I forgot how to calculate the dimensions of an obtuse triangle.

 

[UtahBill]

You mention some points that merit addressing. Our schools are indeed authoritarian places, and going about resolving that is not going to be easy. Still, the need to rework schools in no way equates to the need to punish or abolish them, as some have suggested.

the better training the 5 year old has gotten from his/her parents, the less authoritarian the schools need to be....

 

[Dittohead not!]

the better training the 5 year old has gotten from his/her parents, the less authoritarian the schools need to be....

That's so.
They still need to be pretty authoritarian, though.

 

[ReformCollege]

the better training the 5 year old has gotten from his/her parents, the less authoritarian the schools need to be....

And education is a proven factor towards better parents. A college graduate 9 times out of 10 will make a better parent than a high school dropout. So improving our school systems will improve parenting for future generations. Go figure?

 

[Dittohead not!]

And education is a proven factor towards better parents. A college graduate 9 times out of 10 will make a better parent than a high school dropout. So improving our school systems will improve parenting for future generations. Go figure?

True, but what is the cause and effect relationship?
Are college grads better parents because they went to college, or did they go to college because they were more responsible and conscientious, and therefore make better parents?

 

[ReformCollege]

True, but what is the cause and effect relationship?
Are college grads better parents because they went to college, or did they go to college because they were more responsible and conscientious, and therefore make better parents?

Both. I'm simply stating that improving the emphasis and quality of education will cause people to be better parents. To state otherwise is to assume that schools teach you absolutely nothing at all.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Both. I'm simply stating that improving the emphasis and quality of education will cause people to be better parents. To state otherwise is to assume that schools teach you absolutely nothing at all.

Well, maybe nothing about being a parent anyway.
But, sure, it's probably both.